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LeebaW. There are many reasons people turn off, many some are about the community, other cuz their siruation, family, friends, influences make them want to go crazy and they just escape and a small percentage is because they are immotionally ill, but that is ussually because they have someone wanting to murder them or something. I know a 15yr. Old whoose father wants to kill her and she ran away and is at friends but completely OTD, her father wants to do this cuz she told the cops that he was drinking and abusing her family, which was true and he ended up in jail, but now he is out…..so sad.
I think I would be off by now but I have so much emunah and I have a good attitude and try and see Hashems hand in everything…and I do ussually.
Hashem is my Best friend, he is the only person I have left in to confide in, and that is why I hold on and keep fighting every day.
DY:
Gavra,
1) Chessed is very much part of the family business.
2) The rest I won’t comment on because it would mostly be nitpicking, but I think you missed my main point, that religious coercion is a convenient scapegoat but is hardly the actual culprit. Therefore, the choice between taking a more halachically lenient approach, and keeping your kids frum, is a false choice. You can have your (pas Yisroel/yoshon) cake and eat it too.
3) The OP was, possibly inadvertantly, talking about behavior which is outside of the Torah’s guidelines.
1) Metaphorically, yes. BBB does not work for YDT.
2) I don’t diasagree, but you also missed my point. Religious coercion (especially for items that pure Halacha does not require) is often a means for controlling others, including parents controlling children. Poverty is an easy way to cause distress to children. One has to be Mechanech to each child as they are and in the place that they are.
3) Not sure what you are refering to, but I think that I dealt with that (BF/GF) and agree.
So I officially left this thread as this topic really hurts me, but one thing I want to stress that LeebaW pointed out is:
“There really isn’t much room for teens, especially girls, to act out for a bit and then come back and go on as if nothing has happened.”
I couldn’t agree with this statement more! While I acted out just a bit, and it was a while ago and I still get asked stupid senseless questions, and people have a hard time in general with deciding on how to talk to me. While many people welcomed me home with open arms, some are just too cautious. Isn’t the fact that I returned proof enough that I got over my doubts?? And isn’t there an idea that goes something like you’re not supposed to remind a baal/baalas tshuva of his/her past???? So why do I have to go through all this? now???? Sometimes, people are almost horrible enough to turn me off again 🙁
Gavra,
1) Yes, I wasn’t trying to argue with you (for a change).
2) I know you’re passionate about differentiating between ikar had in and chumra, but I don’t think there’s a huge one in the context of our discussion. Halachos which are meikar had in can be used manipulatively, and chumras can be taught and implemented lovingly.
For example, if a parents wants their child to do the right thing because of
how his behavior reflects on them, the child will sense it and could rebel. If a father practices and teaches chumras out of genuine yiras shomayim, the child is likely to keep them b’simcha.
Regarding the OP as well, an at risk kid doesn’t necessarily feel any more stifled by chumras than by halachos mi’din.
3) I know you agreed, but I think you mentioned that the OP was only talking about chumras. You wrote “The issue is how to be flexible within the Torah’s guidelines.”. I understood that (maybe erroneously) to refer to the OP’s issue.
streekgeek- the reason there has to be a mitzva to tell us not to remind someone of there past, is because human nature is to do just that. Sometimes we have a hard time going against our nature and doing the right thing. I’m sorry you have to go through this.
That makes sense, but I still think LeebaW is wrong about some things..if you see my post above
Gamanit – I know. I’m just a natural phenomenon, people can’t stop asking questions. I just find it so hard to forgive them sometimes…
Shopping: “Hashem is my Best friend, he is the only person I have left in to confide in, and that is why I hold on and keep fighting every day.”
You sound double your age…
Shopping613, your response to LeebaW is to have a good attitude and Emunah? Emunah is one of the primary reasons why people go off the derech to begin with. I myself have Emunah issues, and I’m relatively frum.
I don’t understand what points you are trying to disagree with the OP.
DY: That is because there is no flexibility in keeping ikar Halacha. There are work-arounds which may not be socially acceptable, but they do exist (and should be explored when appropriate). Even for an at-risk child, you can’t tell them don’t worry about Niddah today. You can (and perhaps should) tell them not to deal with Minyan or H&J, as that is not as critical.
My issue is more with those who insist on keeping Chumrahs socially than caring about the actual Chumrah itself, or the reason for it. (We certainly agree that a Yorei Shomayim has the right to implement Chumrahs and Gedarim for themselves. They show themselves by being “Machmir” where it is not popular, easy or showy (for an obvious example, not wearing a showy hat, tie or suit vs. making your wife dress like a frump because you are oh so Tznius (while you (the husband) are dripping with bling (or the top of the line Straimel) and making heads turn)).
For example, if a parents wants their child to do the right thing because of how his behavior reflects on them, the child will sense it and could rebel. If a father practices and teaches chumras out of genuine yiras shomayim, the child is likely to keep them b’simcha.
Hear hear!
You can (and perhaps should) tell them not to deal with Minyan or H&J, as that is not as critical.
Nitpick: I don’t think you tell a kid (directly) not to worry about minyan. It may be appropriate, in some cases, not to be all over them about it (maybe that’s what you meant).
streekgeek- people lack common sense and sensitivity in the frum world and outside it too, that should not be a reason to push you off if you think about it. just feel sorry for those tactless people who are constantly putting their foot in their mouth and wonder why every conversation is punctuated by awkward silences and people stomping hard on their feet underneath the table.
you can be hurt or you can be strengthened by how blessed you are that you have the understanding and sensitivity to know if and when to say something.
Personally, I think that at the Bar/Bas Mitzva age parents are supposed to let go a little of their control on the child. At this point, the responsibility lies on the child. So why are parents trying to make choices for them by making them so miserable? Words like “you HAVE to, WE don’t do that, etc.” all imply that the child has no choice. I think it would be better for parents to give the child room to find their way, then to force Judiasm onto them. Most of the time, it doesn’t start with breaking Halacha. It escalates into that. If the parent was more accepting, and allows the rebellion its phase, it most likely will die out. Unless of course, something deeper is going on, like abuse.
Also, I heard a statistic that mentioned unhappy marriages in relation to OTD. Don’t know if it’s true though.
StreetGeek-take it from someone who’s been on both sides of the mountain, horrible people exist everywhere. No matter what branch of religion, philosophy, race, or gender they fall under. I believe that Judiasm can cure such behaviors if done properly. Sadly, most of us don’t. Feeling down about it, is just a test. Don’t look at other, work on strengthening yourself into a better Jew.
Streekgeek: is that a compliment?
Littlemookie: Im saying that its tecnically true that many people go off because they are emotionally not strong, by crazy things and people in their lives and it IS not theyre fault. That does nit mean they are crazy, it just means the people in their lives are crazy (ex. abusive….) In the olden days people were not abusive like this and did not try and kill their own children…and so on.
All that means is these ppl go off cuz they are emotionally unstable (because of their situation) and dont have good enough emunah and ask why HaShem is doing this and thry feel they dont get an answer and they go OTD.
This is one of the biggest reasons, the OP stated that this is a stereotype, seriously, you guyz wish it was.
Dont fool yourself. I stated in my above post that there are many more reasons qnd this is not the biggest and there are other big ones but it IS a big cause.
Im not saying you are crazy, im saying they have a phsycological problem that needs to be found from being abused in a cult or other things. And I just wrote that that IS a big reason, but there are other big reasons, like not being strong in emunah, asking questions, not feeling anything towards judasim, in the wrong crowd.
I never said that is the main reason or the only reason or that people are crazy.
I myself wrote I woukd be OTD now if I didnt have strong emunah, and Im not crazy.
But dont say that that isnt a reason, it is, it is A reason, not THE reason.
Closing thread pending moderator review.
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