Perspective From OTD

@LeebaW – Question for you. Based on a superficial read of your post it would seem that the reason you went OTD was related to your mother being too strict with you, as you state “Because honestly if she hadn’t made a big deal about every little thing I may not have made choice to cut ties with religiosity completely”.

Is this a punishment for her not treating you right, or did her treatment of you drive a greater search for a way out, that you may not have embarked on if she had been less strict??

sounds like you went off the derech because ur angry at your mother. did you work that out or are you still angry at her? because if your not frum and still angry that sort of defeats your whole rebellion unless you did it to make her angry…

I think her point is simply that if one wishes to maximize the chances that their kids will stay frum, especially if there is already some type of “at risk” behavior, it might be better to pick your battles. She isn’t trying to tell you what would or wouldn’t convince her to become frum now, just giving some helpful advice to those for whom it might be relevant. And as a formerly frum person myself, I think this is mostly spot on.

I don’t doubt LeebaW’s sincerity in thinking her suggestions are accurate in that allowing a less restrictive religious lifestyle will encourage children who might have gone otd to remain religious albeit less frum. I just think she, and other ord’ers who think that, are mistaken and wrong in that assumption. I do not believe allowing a less restrictive religious lifestyle will encourage someone to remain frum. Anecdotally I think it is obvious that children from less restrictive religious lifestyles go otd at a notably greater rate than children from more insular and restrictive religious lifestyles. And I also think the fact that LeebaW is still not religious even though she could be religious while less restrictive, belies her contention that less restrictive Judaism will result in more frumkeit.

kneedeep — I think she was saying, you got to be able to allow some space to move. It is incredibly hard for anyone to keep up if there is a very high intensity. When something is kept very rigid when it gets bumped it is more likely to shatter than if it was a bit looser. I’m not saying she was correct, but she does have a great point. That we should focus on the big things.

Leeba — Stay strong. Maybe when you are older you will come to realize that no matter what your parents and G-d still love you and that you will always be welcomed back.

DaasYochid

“The best way of minimizing the chances of your kids going off the derech is to not have a derech.”

Not sure if this is a joke because its not very intelligent.

I don’t ask vegetarians for cholent recipes.

When someone who lives a lifestyle antithetical to the one I want for my children tells me how to raise them without incorporating that advice into their own lives the advice is suspect.

I did not post to attack her. Honestly, I just wanted to prove that I was in a similar situation but we turned out so different. I don’t think she should go all out and say it is all because of her mother’s nitpicking that she’s not religious anymore. And if she insists it is, I feel bad for her mother’s guilt in believing that it was her that turned off her child.

One more thing I just wanted to point out – Ironically, the same thing that pushed me away from everything is what eventually brought me back home. My parents love was a bit stifling at times, but it was that exact unconditional love that made me think, do I want to hurt them that much?

Thanks keepitcoming and torah613 😉

See, it works

Is there any one reason why people go off the derech? I would imagine not. However, it would seem pretty clear that what most allows for it is our total integration into American/Western society. For centuries Jews did not assimilate in the numbers that they do today, probably because they couldn’t more than any other reason. Jews were kept in ghettos, seperate from the rest of society, and when they werent, they were limited in profession and in title. Let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that if Judaism became more appealing all of a sudden no one would want to go OTD. The last time I checked, the ??? ???? happened not too long after every single person at Har Sinai experienced prophecy. Not to sound too closed minded, but the surest way to prevent assimiliation and this OTD problem (which are one and the same thing) is to make it as difficult as possible to happen, by exposing our children as little as possible to values contrary to our own. By no means am I denying the importance of improving our Jewish society, and of presenting Judaism in its most appropriate form, but by the same token, I do not believe that a most perfect Judaism will prevent the OTD problem in any country in which we have become fully integrated with a society antithetical to ours(see latest NYC mayor elections as the newest example of our involvement in American life).

@SanityIsOverrated – welcome back 🙂 I’ve missed your posts…

Again, a bad analogy. This isn’t the same as asking someone how to RUN a school, or how to BE a mechanech, but like with any good school, getting feedback about what might have made the experience better is certainly helpful. Of course I wouldn’t ask a law school dropout how to run the place, but I definitely would ask him or her why they felt they had such a bad experience that it induced them to leave.

Thanks:) I was wondering if my brief return to life would be noticed. Thank

Is OTD: On The Derech or Off The Derech?

Thanks DY for bumping that thread. It has become very relevant very fast.

The point I have been unsuccessfully making is that even though talking to the people who leave may give us good insight into what the shortcomings are, there are also serious caveats that need to be included.

Included in that is the fact that the people who leave have all sorts of dynamics going on inside their heads to justify why they left post-hoc. The reasons they say may not be the real reasons they left, and the perceptions they claim may not have really been perceived.

Include in this the fact that people who are so unhappy with their life that they make huge upheavals and abandon their former social circles and family are highly likely to have all sorts of issues.

Moreover, even if their observations are relevant and helpful, there is no reason why their recommendations for change are at all relevant or helpful. They don’t have any special insight in what might make it better, and certainly don’t have any insight in how to balance their concern against all sorts of counterbalancing concerns.

Because of that, I don’t find the information from OTD people particularly useful. And I don’t find their recommendations worth listening to at all.

So their observations are “relevant and helpful” but you also “don’t find the information…particularly useful.” Hmmm. I don’t think I’m understanding.

Am I getting that right Popa btw?

From what you’ve said, I gather that you see how OTD can help point out our problems, but not how to fix them.

Let me rephrase my earlier post, because WIY apparently didn’t get it, and my response to him is still, as of this posting, is still in moderation limbo.

The OP no longer values the same things which I do. I will not change my values out of fear of my kids going of the d erech, ch”v. That would be changing or even abandoning the derech. Some of the things the OP wishes parents would compromise on are completely against Halacha.

I’d be more than happy to consider anyone’s suggestions on how to make my values more palatable, and how to keep them on the derech. When you tell me, though, that you don’t like my derech, I stop listening.

An OTD person has reasons why they left, reasons which may not make sense to a person who never had the urge to leave we each have our own experience in this life that is shaped by those around us, a person who had parents who loved them and helped them learn their way would most likely not understand the existence of a person who had an abusive parent it just does not compute, the reasons are valid to the one who left and they have no need nor desire to apologize for the path they have chosen.

Spirituality is a wonderful thing, having faith in hashem is a wonderful thing but organized religion just doesnt work for everyone.

Leeba, some of the things you were talking about are against halacha.

FFG, I believe you’re thinking of “migu d’i bo’i shosak”, but I fail to see any relevance.

Leeba- Do you believe in Hashem and the Torah? If yes, you aught to keep the Torah regardless of what other people have done. Maybe it is harder for you but logic would dictate you should try. If you don’t believe then perhaps that’s the reason you remain off?

I appreciate Leeba’s presence here. I think she can offer insights into how we can do things differently, so as to learn what caused her to go off, and to learn what not to do to boost retention rates.