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Thanks, Wolf. I can’t say for sure if that’s what zahavasdad was referring to, but it doesn’t say assur.
Isn’t formaldehyde the embalming chemical they use in non iron shirts? I guess I’m getting a double dosage.
ZD – you wrote:
“she did not have enough money for both the more expensive paper towels and the food”
I would like to know where it says that she must buy paper towels for Pesach.
Yeah thats the book and the direct quote, thanks
DY now we are talking about semantics, No he didnt use the word assur, but he did not to deviate from a minhag (and Minhag is more stringent than Halacha). so we interpreted the statement differently.
I do have a question for you, You said before why should I care when someone makes some chumra that I dont follow and disagree with. How come when someone uses a kula and those condemn these cula or being makil and Ive even seen people use “LIfnei Evir”. If I eat Hagan Daaze Ice cream, Why should it bother you.
However when one shows examples of chumras on the right not only do we disagree with , but think are downright wrong you answer. It doesnt affect you so why do you care.
I care because I truly believe that its damaging to Yiddishkeit to make such chumras as Hamaser or this no Pizza at Melava malka is as damaging or worse than YCT. There are many people who even follow these rebbes who really shouldnt be following these chumras and at some point reach the point of Dayenu and just leave (And I belvie its getting worse) One can bury themselves in the sand and think it isnt happening, but it is.
I like how he writes, “even if the pizza has a reliable hechsher certification.” Why is that an “even”? If it doesn’t have it, you shouldn’t be eating it any day of the week!
When I was in Darchei Torah, the yeshiva used to order pizza for the melava malka each week. They also usually had leftovers from Shabbos. So they’d use one side of the dining room for pizza, and on the other side, they had the fleishig stuff. Some people would have pizza, wait a bit, then go have some cholent and kishka.
‘I do know there have been “issuirim” about eating such things as sushi (because its not a “Jewish Food”) ‘
If it is kosher then it is a Jewish food.
Nechomah: I would like to know where it says that she must buy paper towels for Pesach.
Come, now, you don’t think paper towels make Pesach preparations easier? We must go through more than a case of them every year.
ZD: DY now we are talking about semantics
There’s a world of difference between “assur” and, “It is appropriate to urge people not to…” which, as someone who learns halacha a bit, I can tell you is far from being merely semantics. I also do not think minhag is stronger than halacha.
Ive even seen people use “LIfnei Evir”
It’s a real shailah whether there’s lifnei iver on something you hold is assur and the other holds is muttar. To oversimplify, the Shaar Hamelech holds there is, and the Ksav Sofer and others hold there isn’t. It probably depends on whether lifnei iver is a general issur, or it’s a part of each individual issur, and we probably pasken that such a case is muttar. I’m sorry if halachic discussion makes you uncomfortable, but at least on my part, discussing lifnei iver, or cholov Yisroel, or not using an eiruv, or cholent on Motzaei Shabbos is not meant to condemn anyone who does or doesn’t do these things.
I care because I truly believe that its damaging to Yiddishkeit to make such chumras as Hamaser or this no Pizza at Melava malka is as damaging or worse than YCT. There are many people who even follow these rebbes who really shouldnt be following these chumras and at some point reach the point of Dayenu and just leave
What’s Hamaser? Anyhow, we’ve discussed this before, and I’ll reiterate that I strongly believe that chumras don’t send people off the derech, but the WAY they’re imposed can, and that’s a symptom of an abusive parent or teacher, the chumra not itself the cause. It is laughable to think that someone will go OTD because Rabbi Dovid Meisels thinks pizza shows contempt for Melave Malka.
OTOH, if you look at families which tend to rely on too many kulas, the kids can get a sense that being frum is a burden, ch”v, and I think that’s a much worse issue. I believe this is part of the reason we find a far higher rate of OTD r”l in self identified “modern” families. (This has more to do with attitude than any particular kula.) One can bury themselves in the sand and think it isnt happening, but it is.
DaMoshe: I like how he writes, “even if the pizza has a reliable hechsher certification.” Why is that an “even”? If it doesn’t have it, you shouldn’t be eating it any day of the week!
That is poorly worded, but I think that’s his way of stressing that he’s not referring to a kashrus issue, but a matter of how to treat Melava Malka.
It’s actually not completely crazy to say that one should not have Milchigs by meleva Malka (I cannot say I’m makpid but…).Because the only gemorah that speaks about Meleva Malka doesnt say to wash/eat bread. It says that a certain Amora would Shecht an animal an eat it on Motzei Shabbos. So the only mekor in the gemorah is with Fleishigs.
I think the bigger point (which I can’t say I’m makpid on either) is treating Melave Malka in a more formal way.
The Pizza is just a sympton. No I dont think someone will go OTD because they cant have Pizza on Motzei Shabbos
But Food can make someone go OTD. I was once at someones house and the kid did not want to eat chulent because he did not want to be fleshig. The father then forced the kid to eat the chulent. I told that story to someone else who went OTD and they told me that is exactly what happend to them. They hated Shabbos for that as it became a struggle to eat the chulent.
Hamaser = Hamavaser, the Israeli Newspaper that photoshopped out the women from the picture .
As far as the higher rates of OTD among the more modern as opposed to the more charedi, IMO the reason is not Kulas as much as its just easier to leave. I cant tell you if the average Satmar loves yiddishkeit as the average Young Israel member, but I can tell you for that Young Israel member can much easier vanish into the greater world without much difficulty unlike the Satmar who has to change their appearence, Accent, social norms etc.
About Lifnei Iver, Even if you keep a certain Halacha (Halacha in the sense where some hold Issur and others Muttar) , you probably also know plenty of frum jews might not keep the same Halacha. I am sure those they keep only Chalav Yisroel are more than aware that plenty of frum jews hold by the O-U and eat Hagaden Daaze Ice cream unlike say Pork where no frum jew would eat.
zahavasdad, I wouldn’t say that the food forced the person OTD. I’d say the father did, because he made Shabbos into something the kid didn’t like.
I don’t think there’s a higher OTD rate among the “more modern” Jews. I believe it’s a myth made up to stop people from thinking it’s ok to be Modern Orthodox.
ZD, your force feeding cholent case is precisely what I’m talking about – it’s clearly not the cholent that’s the issue, it’s the abusive father.
Fair point about MO vs. Satmar, but the OTD rate among secularly educated “chareidim” is still far lower than among the “modern orthodox”. So you can’t dismiss the notion that keeping a more stringent form of Yiddishkeit is a form of being more committed to it (not exclusively, and not to the exclusion of other forms) and showing that it’s not just a burden which should be thrown off as much as possible.
I think you missed my halachic point on lifnei iver.
It’s actually not completely crazy to say that one should not have Milchigs by meleva Malka (I cannot say I’m makpid but…).Because the only gemorah that speaks about Meleva Malka doesnt say to wash/eat bread. It says that a certain Amora would Shecht an animal an eat it on Motzei Shabbos. So the only mekor in the gemorah is with Fleishigs.
Milchig vs Fleishig was not mentioned in this paragraph only that somehow Hemish foods (Chulent , Kugel, etc) was more “Kadosh” than Pizza because our ancestors did not eat Pizza in Europe
Whose ancestors? I bet the ones in Naples ate pizza.
Ypsi: Actually, I think there’s a Gemara that says an Amora ate Pareve by Melava Malka.
DY: I have long been leery of those stats of OTD rates for several reasons, but it’s probably Mistaber if it’s true for the reason ZD said.
DY now we are talking about semantics, No he didnt use the word assur, but he did not to deviate from a minhag (and Minhag is more stringent than Halacha). so we interpreted the statement differently.
From my reading of this, I believe the minhag he was referring to was the minhag to actually have a Melave Malka.
The Wolf
I dont think jews were allowed to live in the Kingdom of Naples and Sicily (Italy was a bunch of city states until the 1850’s)
But the point is correct that maybe jews from Eastern Europe did eat Chulent , Kugel etc, but who is to say what jews from other places ate regularly. “Hemish Foods” was really just foods borrowed from the local cuisine.
i dont think Rabbi Dovid Meisels was saying that one should only eat foods that our ancestors ate. i think that he was saying that the food served at melava malka should be like the food served st the shabbos meals. therefore if one would have sushi at their shabbos meal, they could have sushi at melava malka. as he says “The melava malka meal should have the character of a Shabbos meal”
rema & YYBC: srry, my second post got approved before the first one, so originally you only saw the second post, not the first. but anyways, one should not think that e-cigs are harmless.
showjoe ecigarette are harmless, it says so on google
(i sincerely hope that was sarcasm)
which google do you use?
because that not what it says on mine.
DY: I have long been leery of those stats of OTD rates for several reasons
We’ve discussed this. I do believe the numbers, even if true, are misleading, but no doubt they’re higher than in the yeshivish community.
Interestingly, they were quoted by a modern Orthodox rav, so his agenda wasn’t to besmirch MO, but perhaps to garner attention to the problem.
it’s probably Mistaber if it’s true for the reason ZD said
Again, not if true in the communities which do speak English and have a secular education.
From my reading of this, I believe the minhag he was referring to was the minhag to actually have a Melave Malka.
The Wolf
Sounds right (based on your quote – I couldn’t find it on Amazon).
i dont think Rabbi Dovid Meisels was saying that one should only eat foods that our ancestors ate. i think that he was saying that the food served at melava malka should be like the food served st the shabbos meals.
I don’t think he’s pro sushi or pizza, but I do agree that that’s his main point.
The reason people dont eat Pizza on Shabbos is because it doesnt work (unless you eat cold Pizza)
I gurantee that if you had a poll chulent or Pizza, Pizza would win hands down especially among those who grew up in the United States (Maybe some older people wouldnt appreciate it and I know some people from Europe who didnt understand Sushi)
So why don’t they eat it on Yom Tov?
I gurantee that if you had a poll chulent or Pizza, Pizza would win hands down especially among those who grew up in the United States (Maybe some older people wouldnt appreciate it and I know some people from Europe who didnt understand Sushi)
No way I would eat pizza on shabbos morning. And pizza is hands down my favorite food.
Same as I wouldn’t drink wine during the superbowl (TM)
I don’t care how old school you are, cholent for melave malka is one of the biggest disasters I can think of. And every food is taken from the surrounding culture. In 200 years, if chas veshalom moshiach hasn’t come yet, sushi will be the most yeshivish food around, since it will be from the alte heim. And not going to goyish college storms has been shown to have a drastic impact on OTD numbers, irrespective of cholent or sushi. That is why the colleges were put in cherem.
I like the vegetable sushi not the fish one
ZD:
“Milchig vs Fleishig was not mentioned in this paragraph only that somehow Hemish foods (Chulent , Kugel, etc) was more “Kadosh” than Pizza because our ancestors did not eat Pizza in Europe”
Once again, you are putting words in other people’s mouths. Just as R’ Meisels did not say that pizza is “assur” or that one “must” eat heimish foods, he did not say that the food that was eaten in Europe is “kadosh”. You can disagree with R’ Meisels all you want, but you have to stop distorting what he wrote. I quote (kudos to Wolf for tracking this down):
“It is a custom since time immemorial to have a Melaveh Malkah meal to “usher out Queen Shabbos,” also known as the Meal of King David…It is appropriate to urge people not to deviate from this ancient minhag. One should be cautioned against treating this meal with contempt, by eating non-Jewish dishes such as pizza on motza’ei Shabbos — even if the pizza has a reliable hechsher certification. The melava malka meal should have the character of a Shabbos meal”
It seems to me that R’ Meisels has two separate issues with eating pizza for melava malka. First of all, he believes that eating non-Jewish foods for melava malka is “treating this meal with contempt” – a point that many are sure to disagree with. However, he raises another point as well – “The melava malka meal should have the character of a Shabbos meal”. Pizza is a casual food, and it is not normally eaten at a formal occasion. I have heard from my Rov, R’ Betzalel Rudinsky, that one should not (although it is not “assur”) eat melava malka in pizza store as it is not an appropriate setting for a formal meal, which a melava malka is supposed to be.
showjoe I meant on a website that u can google search
In many communities Dairy is not eaten on Shabbos or Yom Tov even Shavout.
There is a feeling by some its not a seudah unless its Meat or Chicken so some fancy Fish dish or Fancy Dairy dish would not be valid, Kal V’Chomer Pizza which is a more informal dish . They probably would not serve Hot Dogs or Hamburgers either
zahavasdad I bet he would have no problem with elk
DY – I wanted to get back to you on your comment about using paper towels for Pesach preparation. I would assume that the paper towels this woman needed were for actual use DURING Pesach rather than before, as there is no concern about kitnios before Pesach. Thus my comment about it not being necessary to use paper towels during Pesach.
Nechomah couldn’t the woman just use dish towels for Pesach
For cleaning purposes, actually, you could use kitniyos on Pesach. The issue is in food use, and some preparation is done before Pesach (e.g. drying romaine lettuce for marror).
Most people who are makpid probably just buy one type, not to have to keep track, but your point is still valid. In a case where money is so tight, she should have only bought the more expensive type for food (if her rav required or recommended it). She probably could have gotten away with one, maybe two rolls.
DaasYochid or she could have just used rags
“It is appropriate to urge people not to deviate from this ancient minhag.”
If you want to go back to ancient times, the Gemara (Shabbat 119 B, first few wide lines IIRC) mentions three things for mosai Shabbat: Warm bread, Warm water, and a calf’s kidney.
Concerning paper towels ans kitniot, my Rav said to just avoid the first few and last few paper towels, as the kitniot is used as glue in those places.
MDG got one word for u YUMM
I often have bagels or pizza with coffee motzai shabbos. Two out of three ain’t bad.
yayin yashan bkli chadash YUMM YUMM
I dont know why the woman did not use a cloth towel instead of Paper towels nor do I not know the reason why she did not ask a Rav what to do. Not everyone asks a Rav every Questions.
I know someone who runs a Halacha Hotline and he told me a woman used to call him up in a Southern Drawl and speak to him unlike he was used to (Not disrepctectful, just different . Like speaking to him in second person and not 3rd person) . He thought she was some sort of joker or Prankster. It turned out she was the daughter from a Rav from a yeshiva in Atlanta , GA and had recently gotten married and moved to NY. Some people might have answered her thinking she was an annoying nudnick or prankster instead of speaking to her properly. This can turn off some people.
When you write a book, you need to know who your audience is. Rav Mesisels I think is a Satmar Chassid and the book I quoted from seemed to be almost a book on Chasidus . I have rarely seen such a book like this written in English. He has also written an “Art Scroll” Biography on the Satmar Rebbe. You have to know who your audience is. Perhaps this book should have been written in Yiddish and not english. The Anglo crowd is different than the Yiddish crowd and this book did not seem to be aimed at Yeshivish Anglos either. More at the modern crowd (By the english it was written in, it was not written as Lomdus)
Not every Sefer is meant for every person.
zahavasdad u like to be selective in ur opinions don’t u
There is no such thing as an unbiased opinion
Of course there is. A biased opinion is where you benefit from the opinion so are swayed toward that opinion. For example, if I owned the Borsalino company, I would certainly be biased and would tend to say (and probably even think) that it’s a higher quality product and a better value. As someone who wears a Borsalino, I am likely biased to say it’s a better value to justify my spending more on it.
An example of an unbiased opinion would be if you showed me two hats of equal or unknown price and quality, and asked me which one looks better (assuming I have no other interest, financial or otherwise). I don’t care in the least bit which one looks better, but I still may have an opinion.
DaasYochid thank u for clearing up the confusion that zahavasdad had
zahavasdad,
When you write a book, you need to know who your audience is.
So if I want to publish a book, I should refrain, because Heaven forbid someone outside of my intended audience may find it, read it, and get offended? Sorry, it’s a free country, and R’ Meisels can publish whatever he wants. Nobody commanded you to buy it and adhere to every letter.
Perhaps this book should have been written in Yiddish and not english.
Guess what? R’ Meisels did not write the book in English. It was translated into English by R’ Avraham Finkel.
The Anglo crowd is different than the Yiddish crowd and this book did not seem to be aimed at Yeshivish Anglos either.
I sometimes eat pizza on motzai Shabbos. For some reason, when I read a passage like what WolfishMusings quoted, I don’t take offense and think some rabbi is trying to pry pizza out of my Saturday night hands. I am comfortable enough in my own skin and close enough to my rav to know that it is perfectly fine for me to eat pizza on motzai Shabbos. I can also learn from the passage some tidbits about the importance of the minhag of melava malka, and perhaps incorporate some of the spirit that he described – slowly letting go of the Shabbos atmosphere – into what I do on motzai Shabbos.
Avram in MD have u had parve cholent with pizza
Rema711,
Only when I visit popa_bar_abba…
Popa_bar_abba only has pareve cholent on Tishah B’av.
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