- This topic has 88 replies, 41 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 10 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Yichus is something to be very proud of.
Itche what happened to the chofetz chaim’s grandchildren?
Why do I get the feeling that those who very strident in denouncing yichus are not proud of their family history?
Is there something wrong in being proud of your family history?
Why do I get the feeling that those who very strident in denouncing yichus are not proud of their family history?
I have not been very strident and I have been very open about the fact that I have no special yichus. I have nothing to be ashamed of, but nothing particularly special either.
Is there something wrong in being proud of your family history?
Is there anything wrong with it? No… but I think it’s silly to take pride in something that you have no hand in.
I’m a big Yankees fan, and when they win, it makes me happy. But I take no pride in it… I didn’t pitch an inning or come to bat. I didn’t design the training program or help clear the field after games. I didn’t engineer the trades that brought in the stars or scout out the rookies. In short, I did nothing to help the team, so why should I feel pride when they win (or shame when they lose)? Likewise, even if I had illustrious ancestors, *I* didn’t do anything to make them illustrious, so why should I pride myself on them? By all means, cherish your family history (I do), but I see no reason to be excessively prideful about it.
I would take far more pride in the accomplishments of my kids than in those of my ancestors.
The Wolf
Jose, maybe it is because some of those with yichus make it the end-all-be-all and make it as though those without such lineage can *never* be as great as they are. Then again, if they are not living up to their great history, are they then worse off than *ordinary* folk?
Just hypothesizing here. I am proud of my family, no matter what their status in the history books are. Each person who was on this world left an imprint and impacted future generations. So without my great great grandparents, whoever they might be, I would not be here today.
I have Yichus. Big Time.
Being that I am self made. I was not raised in a Torah home, or with Emuna, and yet I found Hashem through hardship in life. I yearned and desired Him sincerely, and davened that I should find “the way” to serve Him.
And He led me to Yiddishkeit. I was so astonished that this..”The World’s Best Kept Secret” actually existed. Yet, Can you imagine how it felt to walk into a orthdox synogogue for the first time out of true awe to pray to the Creator and have people put their noses up at me, or to interrogate me with endless humiliating questions? Or not to know which way to hold the Siddur up or down? Serious!
And I came far with Hashem’s blessing and help. I didn’t have someone leading me like a child pulling my hand. Of course I had people here and there along the road I turned to for questions, guidance and role models and Hebrew Classes, but if you look at this insightfully, truthfully, my kids and their kids and their kids should be like whoa mama, bubbe ladyfrumgit was “the lady”. Real Yichus in Abishter’s eyes. She was like Avraham Avinu.
I mamish looked around and realized there was a G-d in the world!
Isn’t that status? Now do you think that should give me an ego? Do you think that should lead my family to have gaiva? It sure doesn’t. A person with emuna is humble because they realize they can’t do it without Hashem.
I heard a nice thing once (dont know the author):
WHat you are is G-d’s gift to you
What you make of yourself is your gift to G-d.
agree with metrodriver
mchemtob, i know u didn’t make up that piece, but still when u write it be careful that u don’t write by BT that they are not our type. if there are any in the coffee room, although i think they will understand and know that you mean no harm, it can still be hurtful. and then again, some really might think u are being serious, and it could turn them away, c’v.
just try to be careful.thanks
I have big time yichus. Not saying who, but I’m willing to bet my house that most of you have at least a volume or 2 of his magnum opus in your home. That being said, my father is a BT. Clearly, someone a few generations back went OTD- someone who obviously had the same yichus, and was generationally closer too! So yeah, yichus doesn’t mean much more than interesting family history unless the descendants actually live up to the name.
The Posek Hador Rav Shmuel halevi Wosner is the PRIME example of Yichus Atzmo.
Born in Vienna to a more modern family, there was a very interesting story.
His mother was a very talented piano player or singer (not sure which). Anyways, she was offered a very prestigious position to perform in public.
The Minchas Eluzer, on a trip to Vienna at the time, told her that if she doesnt accept the job, she will have the zechus to have a son who will eventually be a Gadol Hador!!
I have yichus! Ask me about my Mayflower ancestors! LOL…
I am still not getting this yichus thing.
If you are descended from Rav Yosef Karo, that is not a big deal. He lived in 1488 and presumably has hundreds of thousands of descendants.
Even if your famous ancestor is only 200 years ago, he still would have thousands of descendants, if not tens of thousands.
Really, for it to make you unique at all, it needs to be within the last hundred years or so.
Yichus isn’t about being unique.
Yichus isn’t about being unique.
In that case, it has ceased to make any sense.
Why are you comparing pedigrees if not to make yourselves unique?
Who is comparing? It is for the person to know and act on. Sure it is something to be proud of, but even so no one else needs to be let in on the secret necessarily.
That is not the impression I get from the rest of this thread.
Proud of my family? I’m very proud of my family – who they were and the things they did. You may not have heard of them, and they may not have Artscroll bios, but *I* know about them, and that’s what counts. They left me a yerushah of character, not of fame, and I thnk that’s the ikar.
“Why do I get the feeling that those who very strident in denouncing yichus are not proud of their family history?
Is there something wrong in being proud of your family history? “
I am a direct descendant of Aharon Hakohein. There – I’ve said it! I am proud to be a Bas Kohein, but that still does not make me more special than another frum yid, to the extent that I need feel smug about it. IF I live my life in a way that made my father O”H proud, then the fact that I am descended from Kohanim is of note. If I shame the lineage from which I come, then who cares if I am the daughter of, sister of, ANYTHING of the people who WERE worthy of the title? Yichus is only yichus if one follows in the footseps of the first meyuchas in the family.
Good point Poppa- But maybe the reason being a descendant of someone 400 years ago is unique is how many people can trace their families back that far?
HSS:
But then the uniqueness is just being able to trace.
I still don’t understand this concept about being proud of something that you had no part in. Oh well, I guess it’s just me then.
The Wolf
Wolf – will you be proud of grandchildren’s achievments that you had no direct part in?
If so, why beget others taking pride in their grandparents who directly or indirectly contributed to who they are?
Wolf – will you be proud of grandchildren’s achievments that you had no direct part in?
Possibly, since I had considerable input into the raising of their parents, which probably had considerable a considerable affect on their upbringing as well.
On the other hand, I had NO role in what my ancestors did.
Again, just to be clear — I’m not saying you shouldn’t be happy about your family history or cherish it — I do — but I don’t see it as a valid source of pride.
The Wolf
When people praise my children to me ( I don’t handle nachas well) I tell them it is zchus avos. Indeed, when one considers the privations and tzoros that earlier generations endured, do they not deserve some descendants with some ta’am v’reiach? And about the concept of gaps in the lineage, there is a medrash that explains the “legacy of mesiras nefesh for a mitzva.” The example given is Yisro, and Yael, several generations apart, and not necessarily a blood relative.
Wolf – it is the same in reverse. I am proud of the affect of my beautiful upbringing that would never have been if not for my zaidas and bubbes.
Don’t you want your children to be proud to have you as a father?
mchemtob; Wow I really liked your post. You make a very valid
point about how stuck up some of us have become about what
Passes (yiddish) for us as a worthy Shidduch.
Trying my best; yeah they do have a chip on their shoulders
cuz they have very big shoes to fill.
Our Family has Yichus (as 95% of all jews do) but It was said
by our Holy Chassidishe Rebbes that if one comes from a choshuve yichus they should look for a family with similar lineage.
Of course this is only after research has been done to assure
the good middos and traits of the shidduch and family.
There is an Inyan of Invei Hagefen B’Invei Hagefen etc..
However the most important thing remains the actual shidduch
and family.
Ppl whos main focus is Yichus or similar social status etc..
will have only themselves to blame later when it will really cause them to worry about how it will sound to the neighbors.
Wolf – it is the same in reverse. I am proud of the affect of my beautiful upbringing that would never have been if not for my zaidas and bubbes.
Don’t you want your children to be proud to have you as a father?
There’s a very big difference between being grateful and having pride.
It would be wonderful if my kids were grateful for all the hard work I put in and acknowledged that it made a difference in their lives. I, myself, am extremely grateful to my parents and grandparents for all the love, time and effort that they put into me.
I would not, however, expect my kids to be proud of something that they had no part in accomplishing.
I had no part in shaping my grandparents — and I would not feel shame if they were horrible people (since I was not in any way at fault for that) — so why should I feel pride for the wonderful people that they are? It’s not through my efforts that they became so.
The Wolf
You wouldn’t be embarrassed to mention that your father is David Berkowitz (Son of Sam), if that were the case?
You wouldn’t be proud to mention that your father is Rav Moshe Feinstein, if that were the case?
You wouldn’t be embarrassed to mention that your father is David Berkowitz (Son of Sam), if that were the case?
No. I had no part in the murders, why should I be embarrassed because of it?
You wouldn’t be proud to mention that your father is Rav Moshe Feinstein, if that were the case?
No, because I would have had no part in his accomplishments. I would be happy that he is my relative (much as I might be unhappy that Sam Berkowitz is). But shame and pride? No. I only feel shame and pride for things that I am responsible for or have a part in.
I don’t know why you’re finding this such a difficult concept to grasp.
The Wolf
VOTE:
1. If it were the case, would you be proud if your father was Rav Moshe?
2. If it were the case, would you be embarrassed to mention that your father is the Son of Sam serial killer?
BTW, does anyone think that perhaps Madoff’s son killed himself because… he was Madoff’s son?
I would be embarrassed if my father were Rav Moshe. Look at the difference between his other sons and me.
TMB,
Why do you feel the right to be proud of accomplishments over which you had no part? Did you help make your famous ancestor a big tzaddik? Did you have some part in his gadlus? Is it through you that he’s such a great person? Did you, somehow, contribute to his gadlus? If so, then why would you feel pride over it?
Why do you feel the need to be shamed over things that, again, you had no part? Did you ask for an infamous ancestor? Was it your fault that he was infamous? Did you, somehow, contribute to his deeds?
Again, let’s try to separate being happy for something from pride in it.
The Wolf
BTW, does anyone think that perhaps Madoff’s son killed himself because… he was Madoff’s son?
I didn’t say that it doesn’t happen. I just don’t see the logic in it.
If he wasn’t in part or in whole responsible for his father’s crimes, I don’t think he should have been ashamed.
The Wolf
I have to thank Wolfie for doing wonderful job of proving my point. It is those who feel they are better then their predecessors are the most anti yichus.
It appears Wolf is willing to take pride what his children/grandchildren accomplish in spite his efforts and yet feels that anything he has accomplished is solely through his own actions.
Wolf, you often say you are going to heck, this could be a real likely reason, lack of hakoras hatov, and kochi veotzem yodi attitude.
popa, as the b’chor, you certainly should be.
No way, Jose.
FWIW, I think Madoff’s son may have been overcome with guilt for turning his father in.
Maybe Madoff’s son killed himself because everyone kept comparing him to his father. If people would just take each person as they are, and not base anything on who their parents are/were, maybe he would have been ok to say “my dad was a crook but I am not…”
Or maybe he killed himself because he was a crook but only his father was sitting in jail. Perhaps he was in on it but his father said “dont admit it- its bad enough one of us has to sit”. But that’s neither here nor there.
Wolf, you often say you are going to heck, this could be a real likely reason, lack of hakoras hatov, and kochi veotzem yodi attitude.
Excuse me!
*Nowhere* have I EVER stated that I am better than my ancestors. On the contrary, if you look above, you’ll see that I said that I was GRATEFUL to my parents and grandparents for their efforts in raising me.
How dare you insist that I made your point when I did nothing of the sort. I am NOT “anti-yichus” (whatever the heck that means). My point has nothing really to do with yichus — it has to do with taking pride in things that you contributed nothing to. If you’ll recall, I even made my point using the Yankees as an example.
My point is that I don’t understand why people take pride in (or feel shame for) things that they had no contribution to. While yichus COULD BE an application of that, it most certainly is not what it’s all about.
I happen to be a big proponent in family research and genealogy. I think it’s a wonderful thing when people research their family histories and discover their roots. I do it myself (yes, I have a subscription to ancestry.com). But that’s not the same thing as taking pride.
Don’t tell me I’m “anti-yichus” when I’ve expressed nothing of the sort.
The Wolf
Oh, and you’re telling me that I have a “kochem v’otzem yadi” attitude?? That’s the biggest laugh I’ve had today. Considering the fact that I hold myself to be the lowest of the low, that’s a hugh laugh.
Just in case I haven’t made the point:
HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!
The Wolf
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.