Peace Plan

Joseph, Israel should annex Judea, Samaria, and Gaza and if the Arab Muslims accept Israel and live peacefully as other Arab minorities do, (which won’t happen in any case…) then I would grant them citizenship.

I would also initiate a program that would encourage Arab Muslims to emigrate to other Arab countries and encourage Jews to move to Judea, Samaria and Gaza to balance the Jewish and Muslim populations.

NevilleChaimBerlin,

How did Israel come to control the West Bank and Gaza if not by military force? What am I missing here?

00646 The arabs CHOSE to go to war against us. WE did not START that war, they did.
In the fighting we ended up getting some of their land.

There’s a difference between taking land won in a war and going into a peaceful country that hasd done nothing to you and going in with a military force to steal the land.

It’s not like one day we decided “Hey, we should get more land”. It was like one day “Hey we should stop these people from murdering us, and in the battle the land fell into our hands”.

Also hey were USING that land to throw rockets at us. It was a desolate horrible place run by terrorists.

In any case I do not believe that 1. You are a Jew and 2. Your intentions here are pure.
You sound like some bored liberal pro BDS non-jew who wants to either pick a fight or think in some twisted way you will show us the “Great light”. I think I should know more about Israel than you. I LIVE HERE. I know people who DIED over palestinians coming into their homes and murdering them. It is because of palestinians that I cannot fully feel safe IN MY COUNTRY.

We won that land FAIR AND SQUARE. It was a WAR.

NevilleChaimBerlin,

Your facts are wrong. The West Bank and Gaza weren’t graciously given to the Palistinians. Israel took over them in 1967 and has kept those living there stateless under their control. That’s the status quo and that’s the issue.

The Arab population didn’t agree to the partition plan in 1948. Which was their right. But either way that’s not what we are discussing. We are discussing the territories that Israel took control of in 1967.

Joseph, I already posted that. However, to save you the trouble of scrolling up I will repeat it. They should be offered a generous emigration package by an international fund. According to polls the vast majority would take it. Those who stay should be offered either full citizenship on condition that they sign a loyalty oath and do national service. The rest should receive permanent residency with full personal rights (e.g. labor laws would apply to them) but no political rights.

DY, Mendelssohn also thought that denying are national aspect and would solve all our problems. The Dreyfuss case proved him wrong and the Holocaust settled it.

646: Is it also the Zionists’ fault when you Muslims beat your wives? Is it the Zionists’ fault Muslim refugees assault women in Europe? Is ISIS the Zionists’ fault?

Face it, Islam is the problem. Zionism is an internal problem within Judaism that we can and do argue here. You, my friend, are sad and confused if you thought Chareidi anti-Zionism was the same thing as the kind of terrorist sympathizing you seem to be into.

Philospher,

They had a right to refuse it because they lived in the land it affected. Do you disagree that the people who live in a land should have the right to determine who governs it?

Daas Yochid,

It definitely tells me that your dealing with people you shouldn’t try to control or govern without them wanting you to do so.

NevilleChaimBerlin,

I never condoned or said that killing anyone was ok for anyone. I definitely never said anyone has a right to commit acts of terror. You keep saying random things and not addressing any points I am making.

000646, not if they do not belong there. Besides, do you think that they will govern themselves should they be given a state c”v? Both the Abbas regime and Hmas are brutal kleptocracies that trample on basic civil rights. Moreover, Abbas is 83, in very poor health and has no successor. This means that when he goes the way of all flesh there will be a very nasty civil war. This is why those Arabs who hold Israeli citizenship are insistent that they remain Israeli citizens. As for those who don’t, the best thing for them is Jordanian citizenship. They can vote for the Jordanian parliament just as I can vote for Congress and POTUS. They can even be given exterritorial seats as in the French
Assembly of French Citizens Abroad and National Assembly, which has eleven seats for expats.

(Forgot to add: All references to “Lior” in that thread refer to Joseph.)

From the other thread regarding 646’s aprikorses:
“Randomex: 000646. He’s more or less respectful about it so they let him stay. I think. I’m not a mod.”

Maybe it’s about time they stopped letting him stay. Explicitly siding with terrorists could fall under the realm of not being “more or less respectful about it.”

Neville ChaimBerlin, +1

Avik,

The Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank are not Jordanian Citizens. They also were living in the West Bank and Gaza BEFORE Israel took control of those areas. How does it make sense to say that Jordan is their state when they can’t live there and have never lived there??

I’m not questioning if the Palestinian leadership failed them. I don’t think Israel’s current leaders are that great either. I am just saying that the only moral and fair solution is a two state solution with the Palestinians having their own state. I also think that most Palestinians would accept a state on 1967 borders.

Philospher,

Literally nobody denies that the IDF controls the West Bank in practically every meaningful way. There are actually Israeli towns there. Again, you give the unfortunate impression of having never read anything against your positions ever. (You actually thought the Palistinians in those territories were Israeli citizens until Oslo). Gaza is sealed by the Israeli military as well, no one and nothing can leave or enter without the IDFs permission.

I have said nothing that condones terror or the killing of anyone. All I have said is that the status quo is not sustainable and that the only option that will keep Israel both democratic and Jewish (the only moral way to have a modern Jewish state) is a two state solution.

You don’t seem biased at all, sir.

Avik,

Your points aren’t really relevant. All that matters from their point of view is that now they are stuck where they are living under military control against their will.

Philospher,

Gaza is on the ocean. Israel wouldn’t have to open its border to let things in and out of Gaza. Your denial of the fact that Israel controls the West Bank is easily refuted. There are Israeli settlements there and even the Israeli government doesn’t deny that it controls the area.

Of course they would like to be equal citizens. It just wouldn’t be a Jewish state any longer if there were. They definitely wouldn’t want to be citizens of a state where they didn’t have the same rights as the Jewish population.

Doing my best,

Gaza was “given back” and then blockaded in. Including on the side that opens to the ocean. While there is NO justification for shooting rockets at innocent civilians blockading them in gives them a valid grievance. It doesn’t help and it’s not sustainable to do it forever.

In all the passion and rhetoric here, some misconceptions have crept in.
“There are Israeli settlements there and even the Israeli government doesn’t deny that it controls the area. ”
the West bank is divided into 3 areas- A, B, C. I forget which is which, but one area is fully under Israeli control- those include the Israeli towns and “settlements”. Then there are those areas that are fully under Palestinian Authority control. Then there is B, which is under joint control.

“the Fakestanians have gaza which was given…to them by israel to create peace as part of a deal,”
No, Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, which means there was no deal in place- they just withdrew and got nothing in return (unless you count the rockets et al)

Leaving aside emotions, 00646 is arguing that the only solution is a 2 state solution. The reason why no one else here is jumping at that idea is because they know that will never work- taking Gaza as an example, another Arab enemy state out to destroy Israel would be a disaster. Israel would never be able to let it have its own army- that would be suicidal. If it had its own ports etc, it would just be a pipeline for arms from Iran, as in Syria and Lebanon. (Which is why Israel controls Gaza’s borders, including the sea.) All of Israel would be in reach of even the simplest rockets, not to mention tunnels dug into their neighborhoods. And what about free passage- The Arabs want a contiguous state- the only way to connect Gaza and the West Bank is to take part of central Israel. that would cut off the southern half of Israel from the rest- ie Israel would not be contiguous. How could that possibly work? How could you let a people who have sworn to destroy you free passage on the roads through your country? And don’t kid yourselves that if only they had their own state and right to self-determination they would not have reason to hate and attack us. After all, they hated and attacked us even before 1967 when the Arabs had control over these areas. So the two state solution is not a solution at all. Next.

The problem is that there is no good solution to the problem. I remember years ago at the start of Oslo, a non-Jewish co-worker was trying to convince me why I should be happy with it- as she put it, you have to do something, things just can’t continue as they are. But here is what she is missing. We don’t have to do something, we can rely on Hashem to work out the geula. See what man’s efforts called the Oslo accords wrought- how many thousands of dead?! While I don’t believe in burying ones head in the sand, or denying our obligation for hishtadlus, there are times we have to recognize that there are issues that are too big for mortals to solve (even if they live in the White house), and we just have to turn to Hashem to solve it. We don’t want to repeat the mistakes of Dor Haflaga who brazenly thought that they had to build support towers to the Heavens so that the world would not be destroyed.

646, they have only themselves and their “leaders” to blame. In 5708 they could have gotten even more but they refused. Arafat ym”s could have gotten 99% but he refused. According to pols the vast majority support terror. Those individuals who are willing to live in peace live very well. I live on a settlement so I see their houses and cars. I see that some of the Arab workers in an area supermarket even have supervisory jobs. In fact, yesterday I saw an Arab woman walking alone in the middle of my settlement (no Jew could do that in any Arab village) . When I asked someone about her I was told that she is a doctor in the clinic.

It is a problem that happened. The Palestinians were attacking Jewish immigrants before the state existed as we’ve pointed out several times.

At that point, their worst crime was illegal immigration. It’s funny how you Neo Nazi liberals probably love illegal immigrants in the US, but when the Jews illegally immigrated to Israel, you say they deserve to be murdered for it.

The reason you don’t like Winnie’s answer is because you’re an atheist, as was seen on the other thread. This is a forum for religious Jews; please find your way to the exit.

Philospher,

To the best of my knowledge Egypt is not blockading Gaza from the sea. I never said that Gaza in only bordered by Israel and the ocean. My point was just that Israel could not be blockading Gaza while still keeping it’s own borders with Gaza closed.

Winniethepooh,

All of Israel is in reach of Saudi, Syrian, Jordanian, Egyptian, and Iranian missiles as well. Do you think Iranians or Syrians just naturally hate Jewish people less? They all are the same. They just know that as sovereign states attacking Israel would be suicidal, They would be bombed to oblivion and their economies would be destroyed hours after they shot a single missile, which is fine. It’s gone so far that in some cases the economic and strategic benefits of being “allied” with Israel are so strong that Jordan and Egypt actually made “peace” (a cold peace but still better then what was).
The status quo now in the territories leaves people living there quite literally with nothing to lose. You can’t destroy an infrastructure or economy that has never been allowed to develop. Give them something to lose and make it clear that attacking you is just not worth it. It’s kept the other Arab states at bay even though many of them of them are seriously more powerful then a Palestinian state could ever hope to be.

Until the Jewish movement to take over the land in what is now Israel started gathering steam the Palestinian Arabs in the land treated the Jews a whole lot better then the non Jews in Europe. They actually got along quite well.

Shopping613,

If your argument is that since the territories were captured in war they are now owned by the conquering army (which is questionable, to say the least) then as I said before the Palestinians should be made citizens of the conquering state. You may be fine with a single democratic non Jewish state in the place of Israel, however all Zionists almost by definition would never be OK with this, and frankly there are serious benefits to having a Jewish state and it would be a shame to lose it. As to your point about them wanting to kill all Israelis see my points to winniethepooh above

646,
1. Apparently the Hamas is not as fearful as the Iranians (who do not yet have missiles that can reach Israel from their country) and Syrians. Moreover, the fact that the IDF and Shabak have freedom of action in Judea-Samaria prevents many terror attacks.
2. According to international law a country may annex land taken in a defensive war. In any case, J-S (as well as Jordan) was set aside by the San Remo agreement as part of the Jewish state. There are also precedents for expelling hostile populations (e.g. the Greek-Turkish population transfer of 1923 of the expulsion of the Volksdeutsche from several European countries after WW2)
3. J-S is ours according to Hashem’s law.

646 your arguments do not stand.
1. In case you forgot, we have been attacked by all those countries in the past, even though it was suicidal (read up on the 6 day war a bit). It took Jordan and Egypt a long time to change their tune, and now I suspect they can maintain the cold peace only because there are others who are willing to take up the cause for them. They are not exactly our friends and allies. Meanwhile, there is a very real threat of a war breaking out in the North right now. Another war- seems that the threat of Israel bombing them to oblivion- or the fact that they have done so in the recent past- has not stopped the sovereign states of Lebanon and Syria. Iran does not have to send its missiles at us from Tehran because it uses Hezbollah and now Syria as proxies. That way Israel shoots back at someone else. If there was a Palestinian state, they would be exporting there as well. It’s also a lot easier to get away with shooting short-range homemade missiles and kite bombs than long-range missiles, which can be done from Gaza/the West Bank, which is less likely to risk what the world likes to call a “disproportionate response”.

2. Even if there was a state, the Palestinians would still be living in a situation where they have nothing to lose. Their leaders are not interested in building infrastructure and creating a vibrant economy. That is a liberal myth. Just look at the facts. Look at Gaza and what they did to what remained behind in Gush Katif after the withdrawal. Look at the funds that the EU etc sends them that goes to building terrorist tunnels, not desperately needed housing or hospitals. There’s a reason that Trump cut off funding to the PA. The corrupt PA will take everything for themselves and leave their people as victims. And they’ll still find a way to blame to Jews for their problems.

3. Gaza has complete autonomy now, with its own government. But the people are still in bad shape, their only focus is on terrorism. You’ll say it’s because of the blockade, because Israel does not let it control its own borders. But that would inevitably be what would happen to any state in the West bank too, or else Israel would be risking suicide. A state would have to be de-militarized and border-points would have to be monitored to prevent weapons being passed in and terrorists being passed out. Do not kid yourself that these people will realize that normalizing relations will improve their lives and that continuing on their path of terror would be suicidal. They have had nearly 30 years to realize this. And they are still teaching their kids to hate all Israelis and to dream of a Judenrein Palestine from river to sea. Reality is that your plan would not work. Not in the current environment with the Arab leadership as it is.

4. You started out saying the problem was that Israel took over the West Bank and Gaza in 1967, took away their right to self-control etc by not making them citizens or giving them independence. Which as others pointed out, they never had- they were always ruled by others. Now you state that the problem started in 1948 with the people doing something – i.e. founding of the state of Israel. Which means that you have a problem, not just with Israel ruling over the Palestinians, but with the fact that they rule over themselves. Sounds like you are for a 1 state solution afterall- and not one that includes Israel. Then you go on to state that the problem actually started much earlier, when Jews started coming back to the area even before 1948. So your problem is with the Jews being in E”Y at all… funny, that’s what the Arabs find problematic as well.

We are as likely to stop Arab hatred of us by giving them a state in the West Bank as we were able to stop European anti-semitism by assimilation, or by leaving Europe and getting a state of our own. By the way, I remember when people were so worried about the demographics and maintaining a Jewish majority in Israel in the face of a growing Israeli Arab birthrate. Then the iron curtain fell and a million Russians arrived. Even without them all actually being Jewish, it changed the whole equation. Which is why I prefer to leaving the problem solving up to Hashem and not Netanyahu or the Labor Left or Trump or you.

646-
1. I think you have forgotten that missiles flying at Israel is unfortunately not a thing of the past. Iran is trying very hard to build its own bases in Syria. Of course the leaders show no inclination to suicide. Why should they, when they have actively encouraged and convinced the masses to do it for them? Yes there is a difference between Jordan today and Jordan of 1967 – but note that the treaty was signed in 1994- many years had to pass, a whole new generation in fact, before it happened. We are discussing the situation on the ground today in the West Bank- incitement, a warped education system that inculcates lies and hatred, etc etc. In this environment, peaceful co-existence is not possible. The point of the slow-pace of the Oslo accords was for things to change so that the 2 peoples could live peacefully together. But that did not happen, and there is much evidence to believe that it won’t happen any time in the near future either.
2. They can’t build an economy because they don’t want to. Much easier to blame Israel for their problems than to do anything to fix them. It’s very convenient for them to claim victim-hood. All the conditions that you describe did not stop the Zionists from building an economy and the workings of a future state when they were under the British Mandate. Not having official diplomatic ties and trade with other countries does not force them to put every penny they have to building rockets, terror tunnels and paying reward money to terrorists’ families. They have gotten billions over the years from donor foreign countries to build their economy. Look how much they have accomplished.
3. This is not about who hates us more- Yishmael or Eisav. They both hate us- chazal distinguish the difference in that Eisav hates us no matter where we are- even from afar, while Yishmael gets riled up only when we are close. Being ruled over by the Jews is not a crime or immoral act on their part. The Arabs in E”Y were always ruled over by someone else. Jews have long been ruled over by Arabs. Under Arab rule, non-Moslems were treated like inferior citizens, which is how they got along with Jews living among them and why there was “peaceful” co- existence. They could not accept Jews in any other way, hence the hatred and desire to kill us when circumstances changed.

I am not relying on Hashem to bail out the state of Israel. I am relying on Hashem to bail us out of golus and bring the geula, which is the only true solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict and antisemitism in general. Yes, the current situation is not sustainable. Your solution is even less practical. When stuck between the sea in front and the enemy’s army in pursuit behind us, we don’t try to come up with defeatist strategies but we turn to Hashem for salvation. I don’t expect Europe or the US to understand this concept, but I would think that a frum Jew in Lakewood would.