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I wanted to listen to a shiur today for tishabav and i have to make a donation before i do so. I think its a chutzpa that we cant even learn torah without having to pay.
When I was in London I went to a shul and there was a price list for kibbudim. frankly I was appauled.
But then I realized nothing is free in life. Even if the speakers or the davening is free. The mortgage on the building is no. The Power including the AC is not free, expenses need to be paid for. How else can a shul raise money?
Both good points. I find myself, for once, agreeing in part with ZD.
edited. It’s Tisha b’Av, for gosh sakes…
But I think that, as with most things, the real answer is to be found not at the extremes, but with a balancing act. Yes, most things in life are not free, and good maggid shiurim and website operators generally do not operate for free. And if the money goes to help propagate more of the same, or to keep a shul/moisod running, then I fully support limited fees.
But in the Information Age, where opportunities for disseminating free shiurim and the like to not only those in the kehilla, but outside it too, are plentiful, every effort should be made to provide ‘Torah services’ free-at-the-point-of-use, be it through the use of donations, advertising and volunteers. And, b’h. for the most part this is the case, particularly when you look at web offerings.
Not all of the programs charge .The Flatbush Tisha B’Av program and the Ohr Somayach (links from YWN) are free. You can donate (any amount) if you would like to. I’m sure you understand that there are expenses incurred when offering a shiur, and if the organization doesn’t have sponsors, they need to charge a fee to cover their costs. Also TorahAnytime.com has many shiurim you can watch or listen to free.
zahavasdad…
How else can a shul raise money?
By charging and collecting realistic dues.
Those us us living out of town know that a shul cannot be maintained without realistic dues. $1,000+ per year for a family is not unusual.
This is not the case in large communities with tons of shtieblach.
Hillel wasn’t let into the beis midrash because he couldn’t afford the fee.
As others have pointed out, putting it together costs money. There are also plenty of free shiurim, so it’s not as if they’re shutting you out of all learning.
Something to think about: we know how valuable Torah is – ???? ??? ???????. Why do we hesitate to spend money, and complain when people charge, for something so important? We wouldn’t say the same about paying for food, clothing, and housing, would we?
Since the time of Hillel, there has been a charge to attend shiurim.
Remember, most often, the money goes towards covering costs (paying the speaker [who has a family to support, a mortgage to pay, etc], renting a hall, producing the video presentation etc.), or to tzedakah.
Nobody (save for seminaries, which is a whole separate discussion [#ktcrim]) charges to make profit.
DY: Yet Hillel took steps to hear the shiur while avoiding the fee.
joseph
BECAUSE HE COULDN’T PAY THE FEE
btw that was only one time
Would Hillel have pirate-downloaded a shiur instead of paying for it?
Interesting. It could be that the charge was for use of the building, the heating, the seats, not for the actual shiur. Hillel therefore was not avoiding the fee.
Its ok for seminaries bec they aren’t teaching torah.
ca: ein hochi nomi that he couldn’t afford it.
After the incident of Hillel taking unofficial steps to circumvent/avoid the fee, he was officially permanently exempted from the shiur fee.
In reply to the OP. You can walk into any shul, take a gemara off the shelf and learn the things one may on tisha bav for free. you can do the same at home.
You are talking about being entertained and kept busy on tisha bav, nobody has to do that for free.
Well, that way get to do two mitzvahs (Torah study plus tzedakah)….
apy: A shiur is “entertainment”?
for some people who are bored, unfortunately, they see the shiur as a way to keep entertained and busy. a way to “get through” the day. for those people i say, you want to be entertained dont expect it for free. everyone else appreciates what is involved in preparing for, hosting and delivering a shiur and if a donation is requested, they dont whine about it and in fact are happy to pay.
There are enough FREE shiurim available online that you can listen to. If you can’t or do not want to pay the fee, avail yourself of the online shiurim. They cover the same topics as the fee-based shiurim.
Yekke2,
I dare say that not every speaker out there needs the money to pay a mortgage or tuition. That is an inaccurate statement.
in that gemara in yoma Hillel is the example brought of why poor people are also chayav to learn torah. ??? ????? ?? ??????. while there is a halachic issue with charging money for teaching torah shebaal peh, lots of heterim exist cause you’re also charging for s’char batalah and all the costs that other posters mentioned.
apy,
ever heard of something called youtube
you can get the same “entertainment” for free (i’m talking about tisha b’av shiurim btw)
Apushatayid, not everyone is capable of that.
TC: I dare say that not every speaker out there needs the money to pay a mortgage or tuition. That is an inaccurate statement.
I haven’t concluded my study of the correlation between mortgage payments and speeches in public, so I can’t comment on that yet. I can’t guarantee that all speakers haven’t paid their mortgages.
My point – which was pretty clear – was that public speaking is a job like any other, and the speaker is entitled to be paid.
apy, that’s not really fair. at first i was thinking how right you are that we can always go to a bais medrash and learn for free, and that these online shiurim are different. but i lost you there. i understand your view of it being “entertainment” but i dont understand your negativity.
I listened to those shiurim almost non-stop today. As soom as I was able I had a lot of cleaning up to do, dishes to wash and kids to cook for. I also had to prepare for dinner tonight. If I didn’t have those shiurim to listen to, I would have had nothing.
We can use the Hillel example that DY correctly cited as our guideline. There can be a fee for the shiur. But those unable to afford it should be exempted from the fee.
It for the support of the shule isn’t it? How much is the aircon bill?
Pay the donation from your 1/10 tzedaka. It doesn’t belong to you.
I’m wondering how this is Muttar. Also, I’m wondering if paying the money is Lifnei Iveir.
“I would have had nothing.”
Are they obligated to provide it for free?
“but i dont understand your negativity.”
Negative? I positively have no issue with someone who makes shiurim available online to ask for a fee. I cant understand why people have a negative view when something they admit is very useful and productive comes with a small fee.
Coffee addict. I dont need youtube, I am perfectly happy with paying a requested fee. Perhaps you should have suggested youtube to the OP.
“But those unable to afford it should be exempted from the fee.”
the site I visited did not have any required donations or fees, only “donate what you wish”. someone could have watched shiurim all day for $1.
Sam. Im wondering why it ISNT muttar. There are costs associated with hosting a shiur as well as costs associated with making it available online. Is charging tuition livne iver on the part of the tuition committe according to you understanding?
apy – I get it. I misunderstood. I have no problem paying the fee, i just read your words differently yesterday:
You are talking about being entertained and kept busy on tisha bav,
for some people who are bored, unfortunately, they see the shiur as a way to keep entertained and busy. a way to “get through” the day.
yesterday I saw “unfortunately” as a description for the second half of the sentence. It sounded like your description of it as entertainment was comparing it to sitting and watching tv as opposed to having any torah value, which is the part i was disagreeing with.
Could be i was just hungry and didnt think clearly.
I was also disappointed that there were charges, but if it is something I want, like anything else, I pay for it. A similar issue is about people who daven in shuls and do not contribute in anyway. In Brooklyn, at least, I would imagine there is a majority of people who regularly daven in more than one place, and they should show their hakoras ha-tov, at the very least, by contributing in some meaningful way. No one will keep you out, but one should feel the obligation. As for the shiurim, since all these sponsors appear to be non-profits, think of it as tzedakah, though you are getting something in return.
I typed “tisha b’av” into yutorah.org and got 707 results. All no charge. Add to that 239 shiurim on Iyov, which is permitted to be learned on Tisha B’Av. No need to pay to learn, although it is a mitzvah to support the torah scholars who create these learning opportunities.
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