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why is it ok to borrow money on interest form banks? there must be some jewish shareholders. in essence arent you relly borrowing from the share holders. i mean- who else owns it if nor for the share holders?
R’ Moshe has T’shuvos about this, doesn’t he?
Some people make a point of not using credit cards (using a debit card than can handle credit transactions instead), or taking out loans. It is possible to survive without a mortgage, student loans, car loans, credit cards, etc. Also one probably doesn’t want to ever own stock. One can assume that in most corporations have Jewish owners (shareholders) and customers (who routinely buy on credit, with interest).
This limits investment opportunities to buying unleveraged commodities or small businesses that don’t engage in credit transactions (as a borrower or lender).
I believe most orthodox Jews hold that corporations aren’t people, so there’s no problem, or that our “money” is really a negotiable security of no set value, and that the halachas apply only to the sorts of money they had in the past, which were coins with intrinsic value (paper money, and in particular paper money backed only faith in the government, is a new invention).
If the majority share holders arent Jewish which is the case in almost every bank especially all the big ones so theres no problem. Even when there is Jewish ownership there are certain halacbcic devices used to avoid Ribbis.
it isn’t always ok.
this has undoubtedly been discussed here before.
but as always, for a specific answer to an actual situation,
ASK YOR LOR!
akuperma: Halacha does not recognize the secular legal concept of a corporation being a non-person.
Shlishi: I believe R’ Moshe disagrees with that assertion.
“”or that our “money” is really a negotiable security of no set value, and that the halachas apply only to the sorts of money they had in the past, which were coins with intrinsic value (paper money, and in particular paper money backed only faith in the government, is a new invention). “””
if there is such on opinion( that there is no problem of ribis with our government created money), it is certainly a minority opinion. I have never seen this mentioned in any thshuva or discussion of ribbis questions. Perhaps I just missed it, but surely it is not taken into consideration in any of the discussions I have read.
shlishi wrote:
akuperma: Halacha does not recognize the secular legal concept of a corporation being a non-person.
That isn’t exactly right either.
Sam: Not how secular legal law treats a corporation. There is no such recognition in halacha. What does Rav Moshe say?
Shlishi: The gist of it, I believe, is that a minority shareholder who has no decision-making capabilities doesn’t count as an owner.
Sam: So regarding geneiva from a corporation, the halachic distinction would be that it is gezel akum and not gezel yisroel?
“What does Rav Moshe say? “
Why don’t you study it yourself? or just ask your lor when you have a practical question.
One thing Rav Moshe did say many times is that he didn’t want
anyone simply quoting a psak in this way.
Once again, the status of corporations in halacha depends on which halacha and the particular question.
(the coffee room is a dangerous place and is probably machshil many)
The secular legal definition and the halachic definition of ownership are not necessarily the same.
Shlishi and others: I live in Eretz Yisrael, where the ribbit question comes up in many kinds of transactions. The technique one sees most often here is the heter ‘iska, which (in a nutshell) makes the transactors partners in the transaction and allows them to divide the profits or losses as they wish. Every bank office here has a Heter ‘Iska certificate on its wall. I have also seen it used in real estate contracts between religious people. As for whether halakha recognizes a corporation as a person, I recall there being a range of views depending on the underlying approach, the interpretation of sources and precedents, the kind of shareholding involved, etc.
Nitpicker, a possible answer is that halakha discusses ribbit problems in transactions involving many kinds of documents (shtarot, etc.) that aren’t money but are close enough to deserve the same attention. By the way, it is an eye-opening experience to learn hilkhot ribbit with, say, Rambam, and appreciate the complexity of the transactions described.
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