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Tzippi: it’s obvious that you haven’t. Althouh I’m not sure what qualifies as a pro shadchan. How about someone who spends hours a day but doesn’t ask for anything when they make a shidduch. whatever the get is fine by them.
Is that a pro or not.
The ovewhelming majority of busy shadchaim fit that catogory.
FYI: I’m not sure what you mean by nudniks. These peoples phones are ringing non stop from Different people calling. Its not the same mother calling 100x a day. Its 100 different mothers…..
AZ:
All of your points are true.
But this is still not the best way to get the help to those who need it the most, and it very possibly will hurt them.
And adding a Chiyuv Mammon is no help (as you agreed earlier)….but if you want a non monetary “Token of Appreciation” (such as a thank you card) that sounds good to me, just like if someone tried to fix your car but couldn’t.
And yes, people have free will. If they don’t want to shaddchan anymore, so be it. I believe we will find a better person or method.
“Anyone will a child in the parsha will quickly run and beg them please please don’t……. “
I have never heard of these people(OOT?), but even so, after a week someone else will take their place or an alternative method of dating (back to the rebbetzens?) will be found. People may even marry local, or drop their demands for “the top bochur in Lakewood” (a good thing :-)What do you think happened before these shaddchanim came on the scene? People still got married. And there was “less” of a crisis (if any).
GAW: NO one is creating a chiyuv mamon. That can only happen if it becomes a minhag which it clearly is not yet. However people need to ask themselves the question.
And the question should not be how do I show a token of appreciaton, but How do I compensate them for the service they have done for me and my child.
If the individual parent answers that an appropriate compensation is a card/flowers/box of chocolate. So be it. BUT ask the question.
I have never heard of these people(OOT?), Which people have you never heard of
Richards Lewenstein and Levy??
I’m not sure what country or circles you travel in. If you travel in the lakewood circles (as your last post indicated) and you haven’t heard of them then you must be on a different planet.
GAW: Why do you say it will not help the people in need.
if it
A. Enc9ourages more people to get involved in shidduchim
B. Encourage people to redd to slightly older and just look for the “low hanging fruit” then it most certainly WILL help those who need it most.
I’m all for utilizing shadchanim that are closer in age to those they are setting up. This age gap between shadchanim and those they set up is reaching crisis proportions.
money talks
jphone what in the world are you talking about.
americaisover: Money talks????
Is realizing that i should pay a nominal fair compensation for service provided, in the guidelines of money talks – as in bribing. We are not talking about paying to get attention, we are talking about renumeration for service PROVIDED!!
AZ: I have not heard of any of those shadchunim either, but I don’t deal with shadchunim…I understand a lot of shadchunim are bugged constantly day and night, and are therefore, underpaid for the job they are doing, but wouldn’t it be a better idea to have shadchunim charge a fee for singles to “sign up” with them??
Justin2:
It is great to hear from someone who gets it.
Re: Paying a fee to sign up with them. So the girl pays $$ to add her name to a list with 2,000 other girls and there are 500 boys in the database (very common numbers of shadchanims databases). What has the girl gotten for her $$.
I am aware of a organization or two that is trying to do this but it doesn’t work. Unless they charged a ridiculous sum of money that would enable hiring (paying real salaries) to hire enough full time shadchanim to deal with all the girls in the database.
Any one individual shadchan can not foucs on more than 6-7 girls. They may redd a whole bunch of girls shidduchim. But to focus and make a priority, 6-7 is the max.
Go do the math. 2000 girls in a database means minumum 200 shadchanim to ensure focus on each of the girls. 200x 30g (a meager salary) = $6,000,000. Divide that by 2000 girls in the database = 3,000 per girl
I don’t think girls are gonna pay 3,000 to put their name in a database….
Oh – and where are you going to find the 200 shadchanim who are ready to work full time…
FYI- I do think individual girls should track down a shadchan (professional or not) and offer $3,000 (they can probably offer 1,500 to 2,000) and contract them to focus on them. I define focus that a shadchan who focuses on a indivudual that is (for lack of a better term) “marketable”- the shadchan can produce 3-4 quality dates per. That is the nature of the present shidduch situaltion as we have it.
YES americais over is correct, Money talks. and individual girls should look to hire private advocates as that will give them a better shot of getting quality dates and thus getting married.
I am an ( old ) male and with my wife have made a number of Shidduchim. Maybe our record is 10 shidduchim, 20 who went out three or more times, and probably 250 or more who went out once or twice or not at all. We have been more than generously compensated whenever the shiddich was successful. Aditionally my wife is a kallah teacher who has a kaballah not to take money although she teaches one on one for 12 to 15 hoursper kallah
I connect the two because there is a mindset that women who do things for the klal don’t need to be compensated. Conversely, men who , lets say ‘tutor deserve compensation. Just today, a young male tutor I was recruiting wanted $70 an hour!
I think that by not paying women for the ” voluntary” work they do, we in fact inadvertently diminish there value.While the mitzvah value is high and is done lishma.
paying the shadchin for her( or his ) efforts is fair.
I also believe more competent people with a strong rolladex would focus more time if they saw their activity as a job. ( read that as fair compensation)
And finally, everyone can choose to do a mitzvah so the poor and downtrodden will not have to pay after date 3 if they explain thier situation..
AZ, my understanding is that is quite traditional to pay the shadchan, pro or not, for a shidduch. The going rate in many areas is 750 from each side. The pros may charge more, I don’t know. NO ONE is saying don’t pay a shadchan when the couple gets engaged.
There are people who have their reservations about the 3 dates/$150 chiddush.
My apologies to any shadchan I’ve offended, or disgusted. I would take to heart what you have to say very much if you choose to contact a YWN moderator and go anonymously through a moderator if that could be arranged. Tizku l’mitzvos!
Tzippy: Actually the going rate for a completed shidduch seems to be 1,000 to 1,500 each side, but it varies greatly on community and parents ability.
That non withstanding.
People are more than welcome to have this reservations about 3dated/$150. No one should do what they are not comfortable doing but people need to
ASK THE QUESTION- Don’t just be a chazer
“ASK THE QUESTION- Don’t just be a chazer”
I think its rude and insulting to call a person a “pig” for following what has been the accepted practice for hundreds of years an is an accepted manner of paying a contract worker (eg. real estate broker) in the business world.
AZ: A list with dates or money back would be better as well (as a shadchan for the shul). At least you know what you are getting into.
I am not in the “Lakewood Circles” (OOT), I know of the FT solution from (one of) the shaddchanim involved.
“Money talks. and individual girls should look to hire private advocates as that will give them a better shot of getting quality dates and thus getting married.”
And it will just hurt those who don’t have (but perhaps that is too bad?), but as a klal we can’t promote it. You speak of “appropriate compensation”, but for those without, they will be without.
At this point we agree 100%, except I feel this expectation will hurt the poor (call me a liberal), and you do not.
Hello99, thanks. I chose to ignore that nugget but should have commented on it far earlier. I was dan l’caf zechus that there was some overwhelming passion l’shem Shamayim at work here.
hello99: I have not called anyone in particular a pig. I have stated that it is high time we stopped taking advantage of shadchanim and thinking they owe us everything, when in actuality they owe us ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!
If it was taken in any other light I apologize.
I will refrain from using that comment going forward
ASK THE QUESTION
Tzippi: I’m curious as to your answers to the questions I asked you in a earlier post regarding your dedication to your friend, and your (incomprehensible) comparison to shadchanim
GAW: I don’t understand what
“A list with dates or money back would be better as well” means
“I know of the FT solution from” do you mean Far Rocakway solution??
I speak of appropriate compensation that should be as much a part of a normal living expenses as everything else. Why is it hurting the poor. They are paying for a service they received.
Certainly for those who absolutely can’t – they won’t- much like those who can’t don’t pay the same going rate for many other things, including paying shadchanim on a completed shidduch. But since when is the standard created by those who can’t.
Last I checked, the local grocery – who certainly is extremely helpful for those who “can’t” – they don’t discount their entire store. Nor does the electrician/plumnber/tutor etc. Why suddenly are we giving the shadchanim the cold shoulder???
Or perhaps it’s because it’s been this way that they have been taken advantage of-why rock the boat.
THAT is a unacceptable answer..
Hiring a private advocate is a whole different ballgame and those that want to (and can) should. Girls over 21 probably have enough of their own money to do it. Its a personal call. Want to help your child/yourself get married hire someone who can help. Sounds like a plan to me.
My apologies. I think your question was what if I was reflecting calls all day for me drive people. I would limit the amount of people I drive. Also, it’s important to point out that there is never an opportunity for the occasional $1500+ bonus in my driving.
I am still not sure about this total paradigm shift in the paying. Of course we’ve always been courteous about thanking our shadchanim, sending flowers or a gift certificate to those who’ve gone above and beyond (not talking about the shadchan involved in a successful shidduch). Isn’t this what your parents did too? (If you don’t mind getting back to one of my questions.) Or did/do they pay along what’s being suggested?
And perhaps it’s unfair to put this all on AZ’s shoulders. Let’s hear more from our original poster, Lo Yitzloch (hey, I didn’t choose that name).
Tzippi:
It’s very important for you to point out that you drive someone once in a while and you don’t have an opportunity to make 1500 on that chesed. Point well taken-(are you serious???)
For the record: the vast majority of people whose children date 4,5,6 times and then stops. The next morning they call up the shadchan (maybe say thank you) and ask so nu do you have anyone else for my us. Fowers or gift certificates maybe 1 out of 40, maybe!
Its time we woke up and put ourselves in the shadchans shoes!!
My parents probably did what most people did then, and I was young and dumb and didn’t know better. (truth is I didn’t date much). That doesn’t make it right and its high time this changed.
Does that answer your question…
tzippi: I appreciate your concern but don’t worry it’s not on my shoulders. As I posted earlier, Coming to a community near you..
Let me get this straight. You are advocating a fixed fee for mentchlechkeit? Perhaps I should ask my Rav if I can start charging old ladies when I help them across the street?
If a professional shadchan decides to hang his/her shingle and declare these are my fees, including handling charges for shidduchim that require X number of phone calls, or last X number of dates or require X amount of time, then go for it. Whoever utilizes this shadchan has by default accepted those terms. Those who dont like terms, will go elsewhere. Period.
Jphone:
If someone stood outside an old age gome from 7 am till 1 am every day of the week and was dedicated to helping people cross the street.
If when they go to a wedding they get called they quickly run right back to the corner and help them cross.
If they can’t do homework with their children because the phone rings incessantly from people begging them to help the old lady cross the street.
YES I humbly think such a person deserves compensation. And those that benefit from the service provided ought to ask themselves how they should compensate them.
If it was my mother was always being helped by this person I know I would WANT to compensate them for there tremendous dedication to helping my mother cross the street.
Jphone: wouldn’t you???
I am advocating that peoplel who contuously give of themselves day after day after should be compensated for their time and efferot.
Yes
Jphone: So now the question
Why don’t shadchanim just ask for it straight out?
For the same reason why even when they complete a shidduch they don’t make any specific requests, and they certainly don’t say up front what they charge if it goes through.
Why do you think they don’t??
I’ll give you a hint.
1. Read this blog and take a hint how shadchanim are thought of
2. They are not businessman. They don’t do it to make money. That’s not to say they don’t deserve and expect to get paid. Thus they get stepped on.
Just yesterday I was speaking to a well known shadchan who has recently COMPLETED more than 8 shidduchim that’s more than 16 families.
How many of them have been so kind as to give shadchanus???
NOT even Five
You think every shidduch that goes through gives shadchanu????
All I’m asking is that everyone should honestly ask the question. And the questin needs to be asked for 3/4 dates NOT just for engagements.
The original poster threw out an arbitrary amount, nothing hard and fast.
Why are we taking such advantage?????
Why are we so selfish???
If a shadchan, or anyone else for that matter, feels they are being taken advantage of, they should speak up to the offending party.
EDITED
It is so sad that people don’t give shaddchanus.
I guess betweeen food, tuition and heat, shaddchanus takes a back seat.
May Klall Yisroel have enough Parnassah in these tough times that everyone should be able to follow Minhagei Yisroel.
And may those who already suffer not be made to suffer more because of the lacking of others.
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