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I know many pple that dont pay the shadchan a fee but send some chocolateed for shabbos and a bouquet of flowers – $20-25.
Hello99
When Shadchanim get paid like real estate borker for completing a shidduch then we can talk. A broker get (in the vicinity of) 4% of the sale. For a $600,00 home thats a cool $24,000. For a home half that price it’s still nice 12g. If all shadchanim were reimbursed like that (professional or not) then we wouldn’t be having this discusion.
Tzippi: I DID speak to Rabboinim who are NOT NASI signatories and they are very on board. Coming to a community near you….. when individual rabbonim will mention it publicly.
Just like age gap. New Ideas take some time until people will realize how obvious it is….
GAW: The only service a shadcahn can provide to the singles is getting them quality dates (and helping with the technical, advising were asked and approprite).
That is what they should get paid for.
It usually has nothing to do with the shadchan whether they go out 3 times and drop it or 8 times and get engaged, other that frequently the longer it goes the more time the shadchan has to spend on it.
It’s high time we appreciated and compensated them for their time and effort.
“GAW: The only service a shadcahn can provide to the singles is getting them quality dates (and helping with the technical, advising were asked and approprite).”
I don’t compensate my plumber, electrician, etc. for effort, (to use your example) only results.
If the plumber asks for payment (before starting) even if the problem is not solved, they may not be hired.
As I have said before, I have no problem if this compensation scheme is stated before the shaddchan starts. I do have an issue with this becoming the norm.
GAW:
Tutors are paid for the time they put in. Re: plumber it depends if the results are getting engaged, or getting quality dates. The goal of all in involved is getting engaged-of course. HOWEVER the shadchans role is to get quality dates. Do think they are the ribbono shel olam is simply unrealistic. Thus they should be compensated for achieving the result that is their role.
It obvious to everyone in the CR that MY agenda is NOT the shadchanim per se. I have been on the close the age gap bandwagon for a long time which is geared to helping the singles NOT the shadchanim.
In the time I’ve spent on the issues it has become very clear to me, that the issue of compensation for shadchanim is flatly unjust, and changing it would help many many singles.
AZ: I agree the compensation scheme is not working, but the replacement you suggest will cause its own set of problems.
If it is implemented, I hope I am wrong.
GAW:
Glad to see you agree that the present system is broken.
Now we can discuss ways to change and improve. The idea of the OP is a great one. Obviously we can always look to tinker and change up a bit. But I have no doubt that if/when the new idea slowy becomes popular it is the singles who will benefit most.
It can be tried on a limited scale. One rov in one shul in one community. As word get around of the way they treat shadchanim you can be sure the singles in that shul will be getting far more attention from shadcahnim (professionals and non professionals). It will then take off in a big big way.
Let work together to help them out.
Bear, 2 questions:
Does “shidduch plumber” refer to those pants-skirt shadchunim?
Do I have permission to use the term “shidduch plumber?”
;
AZ: The other solution “One rov in one shul in one community” that I have mentioned previously (HIRE A SHADDCHAN THAT WORKS FOR THE SHUL) seems to me like a better one.
GAW:
Difference is One rov one shul is where it starts. It will explode very rapidly all over the country.
Re: Hiring a shadchan for a shul, there just aren’t enough shadchanim out there to hire one for every twenty girls. If it could be done it’s a start. (It would probably cost more to do that then to pay 150 each time the kids get to a 3rd date).
In addition this is NOT something the community should pay for. The people receiving the service should pay. (if someone can’t afford, well it’s like everything else in life. But why should it be structured that way initially.
FYI: many months ago I posted the idea of out of town communities hiring a shadchan for every twenty girls ages 21-25. That idea has evolved into the idea the OP discussed here.
BS”D
A600KiloBear:
Last I checked ppl don’t look to inflict pain on themselves. If there are shadchanim out there who consistently suggest totally unsuitable ideas,(what u refer to as Shidduch plumer)
A: They won’t have to many people listening to them,
B: They certainly won’t have people getting to three dates.
If I may ask for the sake of the seriousness of this topic please keep your insensitive comments to other more important threads that the cr is filled with.
BS”D
Sorry, the truth hurts. You are suggesting giving scamateurs even more opportunities to take scarce funds from young people and the parents of large families.
What you are suggesting will bring about the end of the shidduch system as money just won’t be available for self appointed, unmonitored amateurs posing as professionals.
Sheker Diber Kesef Notel = ShaDChaN.
And your attempt to silence me will get nowhere, AZ = Avoda Zoro!
BS”D
And I see that the whole thread was started by a shadchan who calls himself Lo Yitzloch. How fitting.
Maybe it is time to end the whole shidduch system once and for all. Maybe this online video meeting is a better idea, at least until the community starts regulating shadchonim.
With all the sholom bayis issues I hear about, especially in places where ‘professional’ shadchonim are often used, I think there are far more skirt pants scamateur shidduch plumbers out there than real ones. And I am sure most of the best ones are those who do it leshem shamayim.
But if you want to discuss proposals, here is a far better one. No shadchan should get one penny until three years of successful and happy marriage. That would clean up the so called industry overnight.
AZ: I don’t think the income levels of a real estate broker and a shadchan are meant to be comparable. The point is that it is well accepted in the business world that some professional are paid by the hour and some by the completed job. Real estate brokers and shadchanim from time immemorial have been paid when a deal is successfully completed, so it is difficult to say that such a system is lacking in “yosher”. Maybe the payout for shadchanim should be increased, by why does that necessitate changing the whole system.
But if you want to discuss proposals, here is a far better one. No shadchan should get one penny until three years of successful and happy marriage. That would clean up the so called industry overnight.
I second the motion.
some by the completed job.
BS”D
Except that a shadchan’s job should not be considered complete until the couple is married in more than halachic status and name. Yes, some sort of warranty needs to be enforced so that if the couple divorces within X time, or if a hidden issue such as mental illness is found, all fees are refunded. Alternately, fees should be paid into a community escrow and held for a specified amount of time agreed upon by the parties to the shidduch.
KBear: I gather you have had personal negative experiences with shadchanim, but reasonably speaking can you imagine telling your real estate broker that you will only pay him if you are still happy with your house 3 years later???
BS”D
If real estate brokers were as unprofessional as some shadchonim, there would have been a complete change to the system. In fact people tried all kinds of ideas online to cut out the broker and none worked. That is because brokers are regulated and licenced. Shadchonim are not. They should be, by rabbonim and batei din.
When a divorce takes place so fast, you can bet that there are hidden issues that the shadchan purposely glossed over to get the job done just as two bit home improvement contractors gloss over many details, paint everything nicely, get paid and that’s it. (Again, the CONtractor can be sued or prosecuted. A shadchan can’t.)
hello99: Your are SO correct.
It’s unbelievable how ppl can’t give the shadchan thier due. Certainly if a shadchan was grossly negligent then they should be held accountable. To think that even a slight percentage of shalom bayins issues it due to the shadchan is so utterly ridiculous to even have a conversation about.
Dear KiloBear_
Here’s an idea. Ask rabbonim who are familiar with shalom bayis issues and see how many come back to the shadchan being negligent. last I checked in the many articles speeches etc. on the topic, your point didn’t even crack the top 100 causes of shalom bayis issues. I guess you just know better.
It seems like the shadchan is now expected to be a mind reader, therapist, prophet, and ensure their marriage is blissful. Get realistic.
All a shadchan can do is attempt to arrange a date between two seemingly compatible people. The individuals and their families need to do due diligence.
People who think that to accomplish the goal of
a)coming up with an appropriate suggestion
b)encouraging both sides to give it a shot
c) getting two seemingly compatible people to go out on a 3 dates
is consistently easy-
they obviously haven’t haven’t gotten 5 shidduchim going in the last year.
Akilobear: You are so off the mark….. How about a guess how many shidduchim have been generated by the online video dating idea… Why don’t you get involved and learn up the sugya.
You accuse people of “taking” money form poor families. Wouldn’t you agree that the overwhelming times that people would go on a third date is because the parties agreed it was a appropriate suggestion. Perhaps then can be sweet talked into one date. Pushed into number two. But to time and again get people to go on 3 dates without developing a reputation as a rotten shadchan. Wow I don’t know people who are such talented salesmen.
Hello99: A overhall of the system is needed because it is BROKEN. speak to shadchanim, speak to singles, speak to parents.
Shadchanim are overwehlmed, abused stepped all over,
Sinlges (usually the girls) are desperate for attention to get dates
Parents of the singles (usually of the girls) are up night after night in total desperation because their kids haven’t gotten dated in a long time.
soungs like a system that needs a overhaul.
Compensation for dates even without getting engaged would result in (as posted above)
a) far more people willing to put in the time and effort to redd shidducim.
b) far more dates for slightly older girls.
where in the world do you get the idea that shalom bayis is a result of the shadcahn system. a recent discussin listed 3 top reaons for shalom bayis
1. Internet
2. Workplace relationships
3. Blackberry’s
(not my opinion-just a comment from Rav Weinberger)
I guess these are also due to the shadchanimn negligence.
question: KiloBear
Are you a professional that deals in Shalom Bayins issues and thus are making such comments from extensive first hand experience, or are you just making totally baseless accusations.
I have no doubt that there are some few and far between instances of gross negligence by the shadchan. To use a broad brush and paint the system and ALL shadcahn with that accusation is well…….gross negligence.
AZ, could you give me some advance notice of when the rabbonim will go public with advocating this, this, whatever? There’s a Rabbi Frand shiur on leitzanus/cynicism I’ll want to chazer to strengthen myself from totally giving in to cynicism.
L”Y, most date do not cost $750, and in fact, most SHIDDUCH dates in the Yeshivah world cost almost nothing, because they sit in a lounge and drink soda. Very few travel that great a distance without being fairly certain that it is VERY shayach.
Very few travel that great a distance without being fairly certain that it is VERY shayach.
I have to disagree. I know several young men who did a lot of traveling to many different cities, many times. Maybe people in NY don’t travel much, but from other communities they do.
BS”D
Come to think of it, I am all for this proposal. It will mean that everyone gets fed up with the whole shadchan business, and more and more people will rely on friends and family to do it leshem shamayim.
AZ, based on your comment on the first page, can you stop being disparaging to people who haven’t redt 5 shidduchim in the last year? Pots, kettles, black, and all that.
Now maybe you are the front man for the gedolim, bouncing off an idea, and a week later they will come out in public. Want to tell us the time frame? Because again, unless we have names upfront (and your name too might not be a bad idea) you should not be taken seriously.
Tzippi: The last time a request for names was submitted the answer was in the form of a letter signed by 70 Roshei Yeshiva.
I “sincerly” apologize but the rabbonim, roshei yeshiva and askanim are not beholden to the chevra of the YWCR. There mission is to implement suggestions to close the age gap and thus alleviate the crisis.
The specific idea of the OP is tangentially related (pls remember I wasn’t the OP of this thread) related to the crisis in genarl as it will definatlly have a postive effect.
Please allow me to rephrase the concept of the original poster.
Wouldn’t it be a appropriate frame of mind if after my child goes out on numerous dates (even if it doesn’t work) I ask my self the following question.
“What should I do to compensate the shadcahn for all the time and energy he/she devoted to try to bring my child to the chuppah?”
Perhaps there will be cases were the answer is they don’t deserve anything, and if that is the specific parents decision – it is very fair.
BUT AT LEAST – ASK THE QUESTION!!!
If all parents of dating children and the daters themselves asked the question, you can be sure many many times the individual answer will be something along the lines of the original OP’s suggestion.
ASK THE QUESTION
don’t be a chazer
GREAT! Ask the question! Of course. We’ve bought flowers or otherwise expressed our gratitude to shadchanim (in this case, lay shachanim), and they found it appropriate enough that they came up with names again.
But it is really disingenuous to bounce around such an idea, say that you spoke to rabbanim who will start implementing this in various communities (Watch this space!) then say, nah, all I meant was to get people to start showing hakaras hatov. What gives?
AZ: Thank you for agreeing that it should be up to the parents if and how much, and not an absolute rule.
I’m happy we have found common ground.
Tzippi GAW:
I HAVE and Will continue to speak to Rabbonim about implementing the idea in their individual communities.
NO one can create rules.
However, it would be extremely beneficial if it became commonplace for the shadchanim to be FAIRLY compensated for their time and effort. And Tzippy the rabbonim AGREED!! Coming to a neighborhood near you.
In the initial phase (where we are now), all that can be accomplished from a change the mindset standpoint is to get people to start asking the question. That is the begining-NOT the end game.
If most people totally ignore the shadchans effort and you send flowers then yes it will be appreciated. HOWEVER much thought needs to be put into whether that is really sufficient compensation for all the time and energy that went into it.
Sorry, this is not about hakaras hatov-this is about fair compensation.
Please note a very interesting phenomana
It is very common that when a someone makes or helps a shadchans child in a shidduch they are VERY fairly compensated.
Do you know why??
Because a shadchan knows what it takes and thus appreciates what was done on behalf of their child.
The hamon am is out to lunch-Sorry.
Lo Yitzloch:
The new motto should be
ASK THE QUESTION…….Don’t be a chazer
(thinking it’s coming to me)
BS”D
I have personally assisted a victim of shadchan malpractice, where the shadchan knew very well that one party to the shidduch was mentally ill and being manipulated by relatives who needed to hide the illness. Yet, this shadrechan went along with it and an agunah situation with blackmail resulted. (The shadchan involved got a nice comeuppance from shamayim too, but that is besides the point).
Paying for successful shidduchim without waiting to see if the marriage works out is bad enough but tolerable. I can just envision what kind of dregs of society will nill themselves as shadchonim if parents were to pay for “attempted” shidduchim.
A600KiloBear:
So you personally know of one case where the shadchan was negligent. Therefore put every person in the field in the same boat.
Now that is sound logic…….
If parents realize that it is fair to compensate after three dates (or make it four) it is not common at all that a “sleazy” matchmaker will “trick” a couple into dating 3-4 times. Once yes, twice maybe. More than that is highly unlikely.
It’s not like the money is that good. If there in it for the money and they are that sleazy there are plenty of other, easier and more profitable scams to engage in.
KiloBear: one episode does not a theory make
BS”D
No, I was personally involved in one such case, one of gross negligence where a lot of money was involved because one party was very special but lacked money and the other was ill but had a very wealthy and powerful uncle who would pay whatever was necessary to shadchan and zivug alike to hide that illness and get him as good a shidduch as possible. The crook of a shadchan took the money, made the shidduch, and coached the ill one on how to behave.
There are many, many more out there where the negligence was not as gross but sholom bayis problems cropped up immediately and divorce took place within the first year LA.
AZ, it may not be a lot of money from the shadchan’s side but what if it’s a lot from the parents’? And is this just parents of the girls, or both sides?
As it is, I’ve seen amazing, beautiful efforts for hachnasas kallah in US communities, but if this is going to be added to the burden (and I’m talking about the working poor, who get help from the community to make a simple chasuna – not support, furniture, just the chasuna, rather than let the girls go unmarried) I think that’s absolutely untenable.
Tzippi: Both sides should think long and hard about what is fair to do for someone who looked out for their precious child and
1. came up with an appropriate idea (they went out 3 or 4 times)
2. Worked (many times many hours) to get have both parties agree to the suggestion)
3. spent time (in many cases hours on end) helping to arrange the dates, speaking to both sides after the dates etc etc.
This has as much to do with the community as paying for ones private electric bill!!
Why are we such chazerim thinking it it coming to us?????
A shadchan owes any individual girl boys or their parents
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ZILC – get it???
Other than to not be negligent which by and large the overwhelming number of shidduchim by both professional and non professional shidduchim are sincere suggestions NOT attempts to deceive.
I don’t think even KiloBear trully believes that is is widespread.
Dear KiloBear: If you do make such a claim please support it before you are motzei shem ra on the many many shadchanim who have devoted their lives and sacrificed any semblance of privacy and personal life to help the singles in our community come get married.
I would be impressed if year in year out you can come up with 10 situations of what can be called deliberate misconduct and shalom bayis problems resulting that is directly attributed to the shadchan misbehavior. Please don’t dwell on the few taht happen and negate all the good that gets done.
Consider that thousands of shidduchim a year are redd and probably about 2,000 get engaged and married (but these numbers are not hard and scientific). A small handfull of bad people shouldn’t be cause to paint the group in the light that your are.
AZ, I realize that there is something unique about the mitzvah/chesed of making a shidduch in that it is expected (rightfully) to pay the baal mitzvah (shadchan).
Yet I have to wonder
– are there any other chassadim that we should pay for? Not just show our appreciation (a friend I drive on a regular basis occasionally buys us grape juice, candy, etc. but just that, occasionally and irregularly) but flat rate compensation? (Not talking about gas and driving expenses, let’s think about other chasadim or mitzvos.)
– in whatever literature there is about shadchanus, is there a precedent for paying before the shidduch is cemented?
– did you or your parents compensate all the shadchanim you may have used (assuming you went out with more than one girl; if you didn’t think of your siblings) similarly? Is it because they are less evolved than you? Because the crisis wasn’t as acute and by golly we got to get these girls dates by any means necessary? Other?
Tzippi:
It is not the parents of the boys/girls job to determine whether the shadchan should do it as a free chesed or get some fair reimbursement.
You know it’s also a chesed to fix someones electrical problems, tutor their child etc. when someone does something for us (especially at quite a significant cost to them in terms of time and evergy) and we assume they should do it as a chesed we are being chazerim!!
certainly there are times when it is normal to assume that it is achesed. Re: shidduchim and shadchanim that time is FAR FAR gone. Try spending one afternoon it the house of a semi busy shadchan and then tell me that its even worth contemplating that they shouldn’t be fairly compensated.
How have we become so so so selfish????
It is obvious to me that you have no friends who are even semi busy with shidduchim. Spend one afternoon/evening in the home of a typical semi busi shadchan and you will sing a VERY VERY different tune.
Tzippi:
It is very kind of you that you drive a friend, trully a chesed.
I’m curious
Is it one friend or do you have 100 freinds calling you every day to drive them?
Do you do it from 7 am to 1 am on a consistent basis?
When you go to a wedding do it prevent you from speaking to your friends or dancing with the chosson/ Kallah?
Does it prevent you from having even a semblance of family life?
Does your friend call you up demanding why you haven’t returned her phone call or driven her everwhere she needs to go, because after all you “owe” it to her?
I’m just asking……..
If you (not you per se – unless of course you are a shadchan, talking from experience) dont like the profession, dont join it.
If you invite a contractor to make an estimate do you pay for that? NO so why pay for something that did not happen? If its a sucessful one than for sure you must, unless you are an achzor
jphone:
Shadchanim by and large don’t “join” the profession. They start out because they happen to make a shidduch or two. People start asking them to help and they feel bad saying no. Before they know it, it takes over their lives. They don’t just quit because they feel that the community needs it so desperately – and they are right.
Try speaking to a couple of semi-busi shadchanim….. its obvious that you haven’t done that.
As one shadchan who is following this thread (but out of disgust has declined to comment)
Let’s have Richards, Levy, Lewenstein etc etc etc. Take a month off. No phone calls, no suggestions, no meetings, no redding.
See how the community reacts then.
Some cynics will say oh that would be great.
Anyone will a child in the parsha will quickly run and beg them please please don’t…….
americaisover:
two points
1. a shadchans job is NOT to get them engaged. No one can really believe that is in the hands of a shadchan. What a shadcahn can do is to suggest and arrange an appropriate match. (3/4 dates certainly qualifies for that).
2. When was the last time you saw a contractor harrased at a wedding , called at 1 am, called sat night, etc etc. to come run over just for a second and give me a estimate.
I challenge anyone who is a close friend to any semi busy shadchan to tell inform the CR that from their experience what I am writing is not true..
AZ, I takeh haven’t dealt with too many pro shadchanim. But gotta wonder if some sort of natural selection is taking place, i.e. the nudniks aren’t exactly given precedence.
Tzippi. Of course natural selection takes place. Any shadchan who spends an inordinate amount of time with a nudnik is either a saint, or an idiot (im leaning to the latter).
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