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OPINIONS REQUESTED:
Do you think it’s fair that a Shaddchan should get money from a girl and boy after they go out three times with each other, if the Shidduch didn’t work out? Would you think it is basic Hakoras HaTov to him/her. Is $150.00 asking to much?
If you think about it, the Shaddchan probably spent a great amount of time money and effort to be the go between and get things going. He might have even done research to set up a place to go out from or to find a place to go to date.
No way. That’s what a shadchans work is all about. Any business has to invest without being guaranteed $ back. Just too bad!!
BS”D
That is beyond absurd. If he went out of his way, you can give him a voluntary gift, but until it works out there should be no payment.
You win some, you lose some. If the shidduch HAD worked out, that shadchan would expect a great deal more. The fact that he worked on a shidduch that did NOT work out, does not entitle him or her to compensation. Salesman seek to close a deal and can work on it very hard and the deal still ultimately falls through. If they are paid on a commission basis, they make zip. The shadchanus gelt is the commission.
If u feel like giving something because the shdchan went out of his/her way for u or any other reason..great
but if the shadchan is requesting it as a fee(and when the shiduch works out he’ll take it off ..uhum…)..I say go find another shadchan
thats a shadchans business U get paid only when there is a hit..
This concept was discussed in a different post and this was my response to paying a shadchan a fee:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/shadchanus-how-much/page/3#post-106478
There are some popular shadchonim out there who charge a fee upfront. For a shadchon to say it after the fact I think may be out of line. Maybe even a choshen mishpat shaila.
The shaddchan, like your plumber, can charge a fee up front for the “house call”, or for the “hours worked/dates gone out”, successful or not.
Saying this after the fact does not create a chiyuv mamon, since no benefit was given.
If this idea is implemented across all/most shaddchonim, it will cause a larger crisis than the current one.
The issue at hand is whether the present system of treating shadchanim like brokers is working or not.
Clearly it is not. Shadchanim are overwhelmed and parents/singles are frustrated.
This is NOT a question of Hakaras Hatov. This is a question of recognizing that if a shadchan has set up your child and it went to 3 dates then they have spent time and energy – and deserve to be compensated as much.
NO, a shadchan has not right after the fact to ask for such compensation. The point is that we as a community need to change and start paying them (proffesional or not) for the valuable service they provide.
As an aside, any community that instituted this can rest assure that they beging to get far more attention from proffesional and non proffestional shadchanim. when peoples effoers are appreciated and compensated for they are far more likely to work on your behalf.
This would help out of town communties far more than hiring one specific shadchan or trying video conference dating.
As and aside, I would venture to say that none of the above posters have had 5 shidduchim go out since succos. It’s obvious that the posters are unfamiliar with the unbelievable work involved in gettng dates set up. Please tell me I’m wrong….
GAW:
“If this idea is implemented across all/most shaddchonim, it will cause a larger crisis than the current one.”
Please explain.
Implementing this across the board would
a) encourage far more people to get involved in redding shidduchim
b) encourage people to redd shiddcuhim to slightly older singles instead of focusing on the “new crop”. Clearly the younger they are the easier it is to close the deal. 5 dates to a 19 year old in many circles is almost engaged. If the shadchan was compensated for their time and effoer they would be far more willing to redd to slightly older girls- resulting in more dates for them and thus inevitable more engagements.
I would not have a problem paying a shaddchan for their efforts even if it doesn’t work out in the end. I think it’s kind of like leaving a tip, you get better service the next time. However if you require it you’re going to keep some people from using your services which is a disservice to your “customers”. If you do charge, who would have to pay, both sides or the side that breaks it off?
For those pple that date every guy or girl that is redt to them, which many do, then no. But for those in the more Chasidish/Yeshivish/frum circles that date minimally and do extended research before the boy and girl meet it may be proper to give the shadchan something. I have friends many that only dated 2-3 boys before they got engaged, bec a tremendous amount of research was done in advance so every date was really major, have given shadchanim up to $500 for their efforts.
youdontknowme:
I still don’t think you get my point.
When someone tutors your child, do you leave a tip to get better service next time- or do you pay them because they invested time and energy into helping your child.
Who pays if it breaks off???? whoever went out on the date (or the parents). The service the shadchan provides was arranging appropriated dates (thus paying after 3 dates as opposed to one date).
Our whole paradigm is off base- and it’s high time we corrected it.
AZ:
People without money will be left out (and unwilling to try, due to lack of funds), even at a younger age. We already collect for the 28 year olds, are you ready to collect for the 19 year olds? Many parents can’t afford 150$ to “take a chance”, which can be multiplied 20 to 30 times (possibly) per girl.
A better idea would be for the community to pay a shadchan full time to work in a community, with tips/bonuses allowed? for successful shidduchim (similar to what has been done in the Five Towns area). This way the shadchan will work for everyone, not only those who can pay the “entrence fee”.
While this hasn’t been accepted across the board, many smart people who want the shadchan to redd their child more shidduchim, have been doing this for a long time. If you want to scream & yell that it’s a foolish idea, that’s your choice. But, a shadchan who gets a check from you after spending tens of hours on your child’s shidduch which didn’t work out, will be more motivated to redd you additional shidduchim. Noone is forcing you to do anything. However, it’s a good investement…..
AZ: I actually wrote my comment before yours was visible in this topic. It’s currently not accepted as necessary to pay the shaddchan after three dates. Therefore if you do pay them you are likely to get better service from them. If you want to say that everyone should pay the shaddchan after three dates it would be different. I’m not particularly against the idea but I don’t think it would work b/c most other people would be against it. Also what I was thinking about which side would pay if it broke off is that maybe the side doing the breaking off should have to pay $300. I know if a girl that I went out with more than three times decided she didn’t want to go out again (assuming I did) it would be bad enough without having to pay another $150.
I really, really don’t like the idea. I fully support paying a shadchan for a completed shidduch, and showing appreciation for efforts regardless of how it turns out. But what kind of precedent do we have for this tremendous burden, on top of everything else??? And what if a shadchan didn’t spend all that much time and effort in it? How unfair!
Sorry, I have to add this to the lunacy of the shidduch scene of today. No one ever dreamed of anything like this 25 years ago. Is this only because of the “crisis”?
And what kind of pressure will we know be putting on our kids? How many shidduchim will break off after 2 dates because of worry over the burden of having to pay the shadchan, when a couple might need an extra few dates, and who knows, maybe those extra few dates could turn things around, but maybe not…
GAW:
People pay for tutors, plumbers, gardenrs etc. this is no different. If a family can’t afford clothing the community helps, this should be no different. A basic expense of life.
Multiplied 20 30 times???? How many girls do you know who have datet 20-30 boys 3x each. The vast majority of boys and girls (certainly in the yeshivshe community) do not date have more than 3 dates with to many prospective matches.
Regarding hiring for a specific community. It does NOT really work. Sure, if you hire one shadchan for 20 girls (like the community your are referring to did) it can help. When a community hires one shadchan for 200 girls it does very little. How is one shadchan supposed to focus on 200 girls????
You don’t know me:
It’s not all or nothing. Any community that begings to implement this “novel” idea of paying shadcahnim for thier efforts will see immediate and measurable results.
Oh, and I forgot the FLIP SIDE!
Ya think there’re shadchanim out there who won’t push kids who are both absolutely sure it’s a no into a third date?
Naaah.
AZ:
1: There is no reason to place additional tzedaka requirements on the community for no reason. Telling me “the community will pay for it” with all of the other good causes that are not being paid for (like tuition!) seems unlikely to say the least.
2: Unfortunately quite a few, taking into account the 10+ years they may have been in shidduchim. The additional cost will also make girls “think twice” about going on that “third date” (as others have pointed out).
3: As far as the second point, your “200 girl” case is valid, so hiring a single shaddchan for the entire Brooklyn (or even Lakewood) will not work. A smaller scale (such as a shul) will.
This is not to say I am against paying to get a shaddchan to look at a girl (as per my first post). I am more against it becoming the norm (it MUST be paid) and the arbitrary definition of “success”, vs. the tangible result of a shidduch.
AZ:
The shidduch problem is not the concept of getting more shadchanim to be involved. Its the concept of having shadchanim involved!
The ideal process should be that the shadchan knows both individuals, does not have to do background search, and gives the boy the girls number. This concept of a shadchan meeting with a boy/girl for 5 minutes (or up to 15 minutes) and then ordering an FBI background check on them is what’s wrong. No matter how much money one throws at people the process still WILL NOT WORK.
How much work actually goes into setting people up??
Tzippi: I would like to ask a question. How many couples have you set up and gotten to a fifth date in the last year. Thougt so!
Sure some go easy, like when you call the plumber and he fixes the problem in 5 minutes and bills you $100. The vast majority take much time and effort. We aren’t even talking minimum wage here!
How many shidduchim break off because the girl will have to send a outfit to the cleaenrs for the third date, or the boy will have to rent a car? why when we talk about JUST compensation do we start getting all protective. Might it be that we have a very very skewed look on what shadchanim do for our children???
GAW: I didn’t say it’s a communal obligation. Its a individuals obligation like their plumber and gardener. Who pays for the girls clothes? who pays for the boys tolls? Why suddenly when we are talking about fair compensation for time and effort are we suddenly so poor.
How many shuls are there? how many shadchanim for hire are there? it doesn’t work. We need to mobilize the forces at large. Any community where the parents start paying the shadchanim for having successfully set up # dates will see a BOON in the number of shidducim redd.
Its NOT just about the $$ although that certainly is nice. Its very clear that when people pay for something they appreciate it more and shadchanim (professionals and non-professionals) will cater to those who don’t step all over them.
BS”D
No one pays for a plumber who does not fix the sink because he brings the wrong parts and wrong tools. And if he charges for hours he wasted that way, you go to the BBB or Consumer Affairs.
A600kiloBear:
3 dates is hardly the wrong part and wrong tools- SORRY.
and yes people do pay a tutor for putting in the time and effort. they always have the option to switch to a different provider. But we pay for the time services.
Justin: Try it for yourself, see how it goes. (or speak to people that have been in the field for a while).
My daughter was in the silver store when a lady came in and bought 18 silver vases. She was so excited that her daughter was engaged. She gave a vase to each shadchan that had suggested and tried the 18 times before MR Right came up!
Estherh:
Very very nice, but still not there. This is NOT about hakaras hatov (although that would be nice). This is fair compensation for time and effort spent!
AZ:
Throwing money at the problem will work for those who have it.
If someone would announce publicly (and put up a bond) that there is a 100K reward for anyone who gets his daughter a shidduch, it will work just as well if not better on a case by case basis. I just don’t see why this is different than paying to get on a list. There is still the point of 3 dates being arbitrary, perhaps A date is better.
The problem is when you expand the rule to the Klal, not the individual who does so on their own accord (which is not a bad idea in any case).
There is no chiyuv to pay for effort when there are no results (as I pointed out earlier). At best it’s Lifnim M’shuras hadin. 3 dates is not a “result”.
If the issue is effort, then the cost should be for getting on the list, which already exists for many shaddchunim.
There was a famous story with the Sanzer Rav.
He announced that he needs a shidduch for his daughter and he will award ANYONE who even proposes a suggestion regardless whether or not its the right one.
Naturally everyone came forward with their ideas and they were all paid.
One poor man who ddint even have money to make shabbos, decided that he has to propose something but he didnt know anyone.Finally he came up with an idea which he thought was unsuitable. Since he needed the money so badly, he approached the Rav on erev Shabbos. The Rav thought a bit, and then said ‘come back Motzei Shabbos’
The man argued that he needs the money for Shabbos.But as the Rav insisted M shabbos, thats when he returned. HIS idea happened to be the RIGHT ONE.
GAW:
This is NOT, absolutely NOT throwing money at a problem. This is fair compensation that is very much deserved.
3 dates is not set in stone just what the op mentioned. the thought probably being that one date although takes time might come from pressure/silly suggestion etc. 3 dates is clearly in the ballpark and they shadchan should be compensated.
NO one is making a rule. It is a very smart suggestion. It does not make a Choshen Mishpat obligation unless it would become a wide spread custom which is certainly is not.
The point is that the community would benefit greatly if it became commonplace, and YOSHER dictates that it should become the norm not the unique case.
BS”D
AZ, are you a shadchan? I smell a rat here.
This would only make shadchonus an even worse business than it is today.
A600KiloBear:
NOT by a long shot.
BUT I HAVE been in contact with many many shadchanim over the last two years and it so pashut what is being written here. Speak to some ppl who are involved and THEN comment.
I personally have redd fewer than 5 shidduchim in the last 10 years- NO I am not anything near even a fly by night shadchan
“This is fair compensation”
Why? (I keep on repeating myself) Effort is expended whether there is a date or not.
Results are only a shidduch. Pay for effort (no need to EVER do so in halacha IIRC) or results.
“3 dates is clearly in the ballpark and they shadchan should be compensated.”
With all the checking done, one date is “in the ballpark”.
“the community would benefit greatly if it became commonplace”
You mean those who don’t mind paying (rich who can already throw money at the problem) and shaddchanim. I’m not sure about the community.
GAW: If people would be wiling to compensate for one date kol ha’kavood. I assume the OP discussed 3 dates because it is more likely that people would pay after 3 dates than after only one. The reason being – it is not as common to have three dates as having one date (thus it would not be as expensive). In addition far more work goes in to 3 dates than in to one date. Finally, with all the checking there are still plenty of one dates that are bombs. If the couple went out three times it certainly was NOT a bad suggestion.
The entire community would benefit because
a) far more people would redd shidduchim
b) there would be far more shidduchim redd to slightly older girls- thus alleviating the crisis at large. (SQUEAK!!)
GAW: Do only rich people hire tutors for their children (that need it). Do only rich people pay their electricians. Why is it that suddenly only rich ppl can fairly compensate the shadchanim who get their kids dates. I just don’t get it!!
I think it is a good idea and shadchunim should be paid, as long as guys and girls (singles)are able to receive 50 dollars from shadchunim for every time they go out with someone less than 3 times or if they look into someone that is a really bad idea.
justin2:
Last I checked it is the shadchan who is providing the service to the signles NOT the other way around. I haven’t seen to many articles written by shadchanim describing the pain and suffering how they wait for weeks on end for someone to come to them.
I don’t know of to many singles who have the “misfortune” of being hounded day and night around the clock by shadchanim taking away all semblance of normal life from them. I DO know many shadchanim who are in that position.
az: “YOSHER dictates that it should become the norm not the unique case.”
What would you say about a real estate agent etc, would YOSHER dictate that he must be paid for showing a house even if no sale is made.
How about the Shaddchan in the N.Y. area that charges $18.00 for each date he gets you. I thought that was reasonable, because this solves the issue in some sort of way of having singles or previously married go out for no other reason than their being bored.
“For a date a boy spends:
Car rental: $45.-$85
Gas and tolls: $25.-$250.
Parking $35-$69
Drinks or food: $5-$150.
Clothing and cleaners: $7.-$50
Total $117-$604″
Not in MY house, they don’t!
This would be fascinating followup to anyone who wants to try:
Go to a local rav. Propose this idea. Include the comment about the community coughing up if a person is unable to foot the bill. Ask what yashrus dictates as far as implementing this. Share details with us. If at all possible (anyway to do this anonymously through the moderator to protect one’s ID?) share the rav’s name.
P.S. to my homework assignment: extra credit if the rav is any of the NASI signatories.
Lo Yitzloch: what takes 25 hours to get a guy and girl to go out 3 times??
I’m not a shadchun, but ive set people up…only one of my ideas actually went out. They went out 5 times, but did not get married and i put in a grand total of maybe an hour. I thought of the idea, called the guy described her a lil (3 min) and sent him her resume by emaail. He called me back a few days later to tell me he’s interested (1 min). I called the girl and described the guy and gave her some refrences (6 min). She calls me back few days later to say she is interested and when a convenient time the guy should call her(2 min). call the guy tell him to call girl and give him her phone number (2 min). guy called me telling me when the date is set up for…(2 min). Both of them called me after date 1 to give their answers if they want to continue (10 min). Same after 2nd date (10 min). After 3rd (5 min). they then “dropped me.” After they broke up they each called me thanking me and to let me know it didn’t work out (10 min).
What did i not do that i was supposed to do?
“Gas and tolls: $25.-$250”
Where is he taking her on a date that is could cost $250 for gas and tolls?????
Speak to some ppl who are involved and THEN comment.
BS”D
I have. As a very dissatisfied customer.
I now use only friends and rabbonim because the “professionals” are just shooting arrows at dart boards. If I would have been forced to pay one in particular, I would have looked for a heter to moiser her to the tax authorities after I paid her, so as to put her out of business once and for all. Another one tried to cheat me in an unrelated transaction after wasting my time; she is a participant in all kinds of MLM and alternative healing scams and wanted my services to help her market her scams. I sent her a very sharply worded message telling her to quit making a chilul Hashem with both her shadchanus and MLM scams.
The only honest one I dealt with was a brother of 2 friends of mine, who realized right off that the 2 of us were better off becoming personal friends than his trying to find me a shidduch because he isn’t a full timer and really handles only younger people from families similar to his own.
If anything, the only shadchonis I would have paid was a very well meaning personal contact who tried, made a real effort, and was rebuffed by the girl’s parents probably because of yichus issues. If it would have gone through, I would have sent her a gift from an online or other delivery merchant, because she told me right off that she would refuse payment as she’s not a pro and was doing it leshem mitzvah. More people like that, and fewer shidduch plumbers, and the crisis would be abated quite substantially.
“Where is he taking her on a date that is could cost $250 for gas and tolls?????”
Sometimes the boy has to travel, not everyone lives in the same place. You can argue about the individual costs but the bottom line is dating is expensive for the boys (some of us actually have to use our own money).
“Where is he taking her on a date that is could cost $250 for gas and tolls?????”
BS”D
Federal Kollel. $100 for gas and $150 to bribe the guard.
First date = 10$ all inclusive.
Second = 10 – 20 (lounge or similar 10, games or similar 20)
Third 45 – 75 (Food plus possible parking).
And that is all paid by the boy. I would feel better if this new “charge” was only paid by the boy as well, as he already has an advantage in the dating process. The girl may feel there is less of a choice to continue.
anuran: When you want a Lakewood boy, you have to find a source for Lakewood boys (i.e. a shadchan). That is a large part of the problem. If you marry local (as most did back then), a “professional” shadchan is not needed.
Lo Yitzloch: I would suggest that if you are spending that much time per date, you should state your fees up front and make them sign a contract, charging per date (or per hour). You will find that you will have a lot more time.
AZ: You are (incorrectly?) assuming getting a date is the ends (and deserves compensation) instead of the means to the end. That is due to the sorry state we are in, where girls need to fight for dates, not spouses.
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