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RebYid – regarding theist or not, in these particular cases you are incorrect, all of these kids were raised in an religious atmosphere, and as they say “there are no Athiests in foxholes very much applies to them, it is more of a matter as Rav Chaim of Brisk used to say, on those OTD maskilim that proclaimed themselves as “non-believers” due to having “questions” on faith, that these are NOT questions, rather, תירוצים” excuses. Meaning, they chose an easier lifestyle and and order to justify it they claim they “don’t believe”!
I’m only claiming that someone who does not believe in G-d is an atheist. The word atheist means someone who does not believe in G-d.
As for Athiests in foxholes, as there is no such thing as an Athiest, this is irrelevant.A wise person once told me, he was having a kid that was potentially at risk, he wasn’t the learning type etc and he was afraid of the future, the first thing he did was find a way how to connect to the kid, he knew the kid likes sports so he started following sports through out, he followed almost every game, commentators etc. And kept on discussing, debating etc every days game, and like this was able to keep up with him on other aspects as well.
RebYid, with all due respect, that is exactly my point, NOT believing in these cases are usually something you philosophied and came to a conlusion about, i.e. let it be scientifically, philosophically, etc. Not just being in a rebellious mode, and saying so. You really have to believe so in essense.
Though you can argue about the term of being agnostic.An agnostic is one who does not know. One can be agnostic while being an atheist or a theist.
RebYidd23 ; I’m disappointed to see that you did not understand my comment, let me make it a little clearer for you. For an opinion to mean something one has to be m’inyan to give an opinion. For instance, let’s say someone who is not a physicist is going to give an opinion on quantum mechanics, does this even count as an opinion? Or let’s say a gentile is going to give an opinion to a machlokos haposkim, surely one cannot say that the gentile has such and such an opinion! For the gentile has no yediah whatsoever in these topics to give an opinion!
Now if someone does not know what God means (I don’t mean the simple definition as kids say it, rather I mean the real definition), then he cannot express either belief or disbelief since he doesn’t even know what it means. Thus if an average person professes disbelief in Hashem it means absolutely nothing since he does not even know what it means. He is Neither a theist, atheist, or agnostic, rather he has no opinion. It’s like the gentile giving an opinion on a din Torah. An atheist means someone who has studied theology and has decided against it, not someone who has no clue what he is talking about, that is called a fool….
With this understanding you might be better able to understand what the Chovos Halvavos states in the begining of shar hayichud and the Rambam in his hakdamah to the Moreh.Mamajun -Dear Health, thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience. Pushing wouldn’t work even if I were inclined to do it (and I’m not). Did your OTD kids talk to you about how they feel/why they choose to abandon Judaism (as you and I know it)? Our adult child doesn’t want to discuss it with us; maybe that’s better, I don’t know”
Because of the divorce – they were following their mother.
Let me ask you something – does your child have anything to do with you?
If yes, don’t discuss religion with him/her.
If there’s an opportunity to show Frum people in a good light – that can be presented.The story of the Brisker Rav and the Maskil is actually irrelevent. The Maskilim were anti-religion. Most people today are not anti-religious, but just non-religious, They are not interested in debating Rabbis, they have no interest in Rabbis
Zahava – you are absolutely correct, that in general most these OTD kids are not even at a level to say or proclaim any of the above. We were discussing the ones that do claim they “do not believe” as a reason.
GAON; I have yet to find one person that went OTD tha actually knows theology. I’ve debated many of them, and would debate anyone of them, none of them have any clue of what religion really is…
Since you know so much, explain it to us.
RebYidd23: your comment is vary ambiguous, would you care to explain what you mean by explain it to us?
Some people really arent interested in Theology. Most people who are OTD probably fall into that category
I think thats part of the problem on both sides. If you love Yiddishkeit its almost unfathanable that someone has no interest or little interest in it.
If a bocher says he doesnt like learning and hates Gemorah, People cant belive its true.
A place needs to be found for such people and until we are admiiting that such a thing exists, there will be no solution (Perhaps there is no solution and drop-outs are just par for the course) and we have to live with it
TheFakeMaven, apparently there are many people who were raised frum yet “don’t even know what religion is”. So tell us.
zahavasdad: You are one hundred percent correct, the vast majority of people in general and OTD in particular do not care about about theology, which is why it ‘s no point discussing it with them to bring them back to the fold as that was never the issue to begin with.
RebYidd23: Do you disagree that most people do not know what religion is? Do you think that the vast majority of yidden have studied yiddishe theology? Let me ask you a very simple question, without looking it up can you tell me the difference between the Bal Hatanya’s worldview and the Gra?Ever since a close relative went OTD, I say the perek of t’shuva daily (nun-alef) and have added others to the way-too-long list (friends’ and neighbors’ kids, etc.) . If you want me to add your kids, send the names and I’ll have them in mind as well. I must admit that I don’t usually read off all the names (but occasionally I do!). But before I say the perek I do say that I have everyone on the list in mind. In addition to the basic bakasha that they find their path back to Hashem, I add that Hashem should heal the pain in their hearts that distanced them and implant in them the emotional insight and intellectual knowledge that their happiness will come only from a close relationship with Hashem via kiyum Torah and mitzvos. And that He should give them the courage to act on that insight and knowledge to return to sh’miras Torah and mitzvos with a happy heart, in good physical, emotional and spiritual health. I honestly don’t believe that they’re atheists who have struggled on an intellectual level and didn’t find answers. I think most of them are troubled souls who for whatever reason did not find their place in “the system” whether LD, ADD, non-academic, social difficulties, oppositional, restless, suffered abuse, mental health issues and so on. They abandoned religion as a result of suffering and need to heal in order to return. Some fell victim to laziness and taavos, and after feeling the emptiness, don’t have the courage to come back because they feel too “dirty” and hopeless. This can cause depression and escape into sustance abuse, alcoholism and so on. They are not atheists. They are sweet kids who care underneath it all, want to find meaning but have abandoned hope. We need to make place for them where they’ll feel cherished and treasured and step one is to make place for them in our hearts. May “veheishiv leiv avos al bonim v’leiv bonim al avosom” come to pass very soon, and until then, we will keep davening for them with love and compassion.
Let’s simplify the discussion a bit. The intellect and emotion are two different aspects of the personality. They interact much, but each manages its affairs differently. There are intellectual disbelievers, and these comprise the realm of apikorsim. These are few and far between. The Kotzker rebbe describes this at great length (atypical for his style of sharp, brief witticisms). He states that what we tend to call apikores is actually nothing better than a baal taavah, looking for a verbal excuse for following hedonistic pleasures.
Most people do not engage in deep philosophical investigation and reach a logical conclusion that there is no god, or that someone else it it. Rather, those who choose these ideologies are doing so because it provides then a (PC) explanation for doing what they want. This process is emotion driven, not logic. The reason we should not waste time talking theology with someone who is OTD is because that is not the type of issue.
OTD kids are not even doing what they do because they are attracted to those behaviors. I have yet to meet a single OTD kid that went that direction because of the internet or the movies, or the opposite gender, of because they liked dressing differently. They are always escaping something related to their experience within their frum community, usually some combination of what they experienced at home and school. This escape is emotional in nature. The cure is not a solid philosophical lecture that proves to them that their way is logically bankrupt. That has been tried, and fails 100% of the time. A little love and acceptance, and the experience of the beauty of Torah and mitzvos works. The emotional angle is all that is effective.
I hope this simplifies the discussion.
The Little I know: Well said, but if i might add ‘and the experience of the beauty of Torah and mitzvos’… can only be done through teaching theology. Now, I don’t mean the philosophical aspect of theology, or as it is known as ‘chakira’ that is a pure waste of time, and most people will not understand it anyway. what I mean is either Chassidus or Nefesh Hachaim (or both as they are not mutually exclusive). Without teaching them the beauty of the Torahdige worldview one cannot show the ‘beauty of the mitzvas since without this deeper understanding the mitzvahs are nothing but a pressure.
ZDad: each Yiddishe neshama is too precious for us to assign casualties as “par for the course”.
If you check out the Unidy campaign linked to the article about Malky Klein
you’ll see that unfortunately this mindset of having to fit in by being “on-track” academically is effecting girls too, who have NO CHIYUV TO LEARN. In our efforts for academic excellence and competition – praiseworthy traits in general – we have failed some of our trees, in the mistaken notion of cultivating the forest.Every mechanech knows that some bochurim can’t / don’t want to learn Gemara, the question is at which point must we admit defeat and offer alternatives, or scale it down.
We the parents are equally to blame by wanting our kids to fit in perfectly, so until OUR mentality changes, the Yeshivas’ hands are basically tied.
TheFakeMaven:
You wrote: “i might add ‘and the experience of the beauty of Torah and mitzvos’… can only be done through teaching theology. Now, I don’t mean the philosophical aspect of theology, or as it is known as ‘chakira’ that is a pure waste of time, and most people will not understand it anyway. what I mean is either Chassidus or Nefesh Hachaim (or both as they are not mutually exclusive). Without teaching them the beauty of the Torahdige worldview one cannot show the ‘beauty of the mitzvas since without this deeper understanding the mitzvahs are nothing but a pressure.”
Whatever learning addresses the sheer beauty of Torah and mitzvos is great. But the emotional aspect is absorbed, rather than learned. This requires a role model, who displays how Torah and mitzvos are fulfilled, with anticipation, with motivation, with joy, with emotional connection, etc. If one never observes this, the studying of the greatest texts are in danger of barely making a dent – if that. All of Torah and mitzvos is about connecting to HKB”H, and the greatest connection is the loving relationship we have with HKB”H. The more we recognize the love He has for us, the more we can grasp at the love we need to feel for Him. But these sentences are only verbal descriptions of an emotional experience. We achieve this through experience, with vicarious experience being part of the deal. As for chinuch, the greatest flaw has been the failure of our mechanchim serving as role models. But I digress.
Go ahead and learn Nefesh Hachaim, Tanya, and whatever sifrei mussar and chassidus. The understanding needs to be a supplement to the experiential chinuch.
There is no “they” or a single reason, nor is this a new phenomenon. This is a choice people make for various reasons.
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