Pandemic amnesty

Being too critical of those whom you felt were lax about safety measures (like calling them mazik or pro death?) Relying too much on protective measures, are examples of kochi votzem yadi – thinking the result is from the strength of your hand -. This characteristic is the main characteristic of the eruv rav. These behaviors of yours (and yserbius) are emulating the eruv rav.
Not my words, rav sorotzkin and rav dessler.

thanks. Your interpretation of his words does not match anything I learned from multiple sources – that we are not supposed to rely on miracles and deal with issues in our world. During each calamity, we had leaders who would try to deal with issues. R Yannai would review psukim of encounter between Yaakov and Esav when going to Rome, but went there instead of staying in EY davening. R Yohanan confronted Vespasian near Yerushalaim (and was not sure till his death whether he spoke the right words).

The author’s criticism (and similar one historically) may be directed towards those who deny Hashem’s role in the world and apply efforts that are contrary to Torah. This is totally legitimate criticism. Here, we are talking about a mitzva of protecting human lives and some people say: never mind, this piece of cloth is bothering me, I am running to the vasikin.

maybe I am missing something here. Most of us follow a lot of medical and scientific advice in our life: eat healthy food (sometimes), take prescribed medicines, brush teeth, fix cavities, wash our hands when a nurse asks us to, etc. You yourself just stated that you avoid people with strep.

How is the covid situation different? what is wrong with suggesting that people use ventilation to decrease sickness going around. Gemora is full of medical advice of such type, including effects of air. Are all amoraim eruv rav!? Probably there is some assumptions that you apply to covid that do not apply to other cases, but I am not sure what is it.

thanks for explaining your position!
the difference here is a highly transmittable disease. So, you are ok with eating vitamins yourself, but not ok with doing something to protect the community. So, I see the priority here as opposite: someone eating unhealthy hurts primarily himself. And even as much as it is a Jewish thing to worry about each other, somehow we do not snatch the unhealthy food from our friends (maybe we should, and this stand-offish approach is goyishe influence). With Covid, behavior of one person affects health of others. So, if you are running a shul, you should do something to protect your kahal rather than ignore the issue. If you did not, then you have some responsibility for what you did not do. How is it caring about other people even controversial? Maybe that was the challenge that Hashem sent, some passed, some failed …

Just take this outside of politicized covid discussion. Was the person with strep that you described was an erloche yid walking around in public places, presuming he was contageous?

I see. Would you characterize any of these approaches as kochi votzem yadi:
spend minimal time outside of the house
close the doors
close the windows

common, as much as I may be guilty of inappropriate language, I don’t think I am in this case. Mazik means “someone who damages”. That is, you were presenting a danger to surrounding people. It describes technically what I think your halachik category was.

Now, you can argue to what degree a mazik, and that is fine. This is a difficult statistical question that depends on both the mazik and the nizak. If you were hanging around your closely-spaced unmasked kehilla, then you can argue that you are not presenting any additional danger to anyone. But if a person you met was sitting at home, following Bava Kama and CDC, and ventured to buy food for shabbos, then you represent 100% of his danger.

You are told that your behavior mirrors the eruv rav and your response is denial, bring in irrelevant sources to pretend it’s wrong, ignore it and then pretend it’s some “rhetoric” and now you would like some inspiration from others.

Okay, here goes. Here is some inspiration from people who focused on davening and learning. They are telling you you behaved like the eruv rav.
I hope that inspires you to change.

Common,again, a mazik is not an insult, it is an estimate of your causing nezek. Thanks for your explaining your position though. This is interesting. I don’t think we should engage, again, in a science debate. If you prefer listening to political blogs who are misinterpreting statistics, it is up to you. Trying to find common ground here: so, there are masses of people who are convinced that (proper) masking saves lives. So, given all uncertainties, let’s say there is a sofek. The law says so too. Why would you not accommodate both the anxious human beings and the law? Would you drive on red light if there is nobody on the other side? probably, not. I am just trying to see how a human being, not a political being, would not do chesed to humanity.

” that makes me uncomfortable just to make someone suffering from [whatever] happy?”

thanks for the honest explanation.

Syag, I just quoted 2nd half of his sentence, highlighting the motivation that he freely admits. I don’t think I am changing the meaning.

common, not sure what your perception of states is coming from. Here are numbers up to April 2022
Texas is n4, Georgia 15, florida 31 … the highest of the stringent places are, I think NY and NJ 18-19 that had lots of early casualties.
1 Mississippi 465 476
2 Oklahoma 426 435
3 Tennessee 404 409
4 Texas 340 406
5 Kentucky 400 404
6 Alabama 410 403
7 Nevada 374 396
8 Arkansas 387 376
8 Indiana 368 376
8 New Mexico 390 376
11 Louisiana 356 371
12 North Dakota 380 370
13 Arizona 388 369
13 Ohio 388 369
15 Georgia 319 364
15 West Virginia 415 364
17 South Carolina 371 362
18 New York 381 361
19 New Jersey 373 360
20 District of Columbia 295 349
21 South Dakota 361 341
22 Missouri 350 335
23 Pennsylvania 378 332
24 Michigan 337 322
25 Rhode Island 355 317
26 Montana 344 316
27 Kansas 319 313
28 Idaho 292 309
29 North Carolina 294 299
30 Wyoming 293 294
31 Florida 349 292
32 Iowa 319 291
33 Delaware 317 289
34 Connecticut 321 287
35 Illinois 283 283
36 Colorado 243 277
36 Maryland 270 277
38 California 254 270
39 Nebraska 268 264
40 Massachusetts 278 262
41 Virginia 244 255
42 Wisconsin 265 252
43 Alaska 187 244
44 Minnesota 240 236
45 Utah 169 225
46 Washington 174 184
47 Oregon 189 183
48 New Hampshire 194 179
49 Maine 201 168
50 Puerto Rico 156 135
51 Hawaii 116 103
51 Vermont 118 103

Always_Ask_Questions,

“see the starting post, where common demands accountability for covid protection measures. He possibly modified his position now to only blame those who “terrorize people in other communities”, which is a welcome adjustment.”

There’s no stira. When the OP called for accountability for the draconian mandates themselves it referred to governmental bodies that enacted those policies. When the OP called for accountability for those who committed mesira, expelled, bullied, etc. it was in reference to members of our community who did those things.

> When the OP called for accountability for those who committed mesira, expelled, bullied,

I am not sure what common sees as offense. He seems to include me using the word “mazik” as “name calling”, while I am simply referring to the damage he makes (subject to an argument of course). I thought he will give me credit for using objective words in stead of saying [list omitted on my own, without editor’s he;lp :)].

jackk,

“I refer to my previous post on this topic.”

Ok, I’ll get to that in a sec.

“Everyone here commenting lived through the Mageifah of Covid, which is why I am surprised that people can be so sure of themselves on either side.”

I’m expressing my own opinions based on that experience – not sure where I stated that I’m so sure of myself.

“If you are going to call the measures “draconian” or “mesirah” ,expelled, bullied, fired – you have already taken a stand on the issue .”

I think the vast majority of people who lived through the lockdowns, closures, mandates, etc. would agree the policies were draconian. Unless they liked staying at home, waiting an hour in icy wind on line to get into the grocery store, davening b’yechidus and having schools closed. The disagreement arises on whether these draconian measures were necessary, right, valid, legal, effective, harmful, and whether any consideration was given to alternatives or mitigations.

As far as mesirah – a Jew calling non-Jewish authorities on a synagogue is straight up mesirah. And given that the penalty was a citation and fine, I don’t see how even a twisted pikuach nefesh argument could be applied for making that call. Also, do you deny that people were expelled from their shuls, schools, or jobs based on Covid policies? Do you deny that people were bullied? Maybe your opinion is that the expulsions and bullying were necessary and good, but to argue on whether it actually happened or not? Lets stay in reality.

From your first post you referenced:

“I agree that there should be a auditing of what went on during covid. But because we know more about covid now, it is too easy to look back and second guess people for their errors and inactions done while the pandemic was raging. “

Much of the criticism of these policies is not being made now with the benefit of hindsight, but was made early on during the pandemic and was suppressed. And the criticism goes way beyond the aspects of the response that require knowledge of the virus itself. Knowing whether Covid is transmitted by aerosols, droplets, or from contact with surfaces doesn’t inform us on whether it’s a good idea to bully, scapegoat, deceive, or ignore the impacts of policies.

When you make up your own reality, yes, life can sure be scary.
Besides the fact that your stats are bogus, the Torah disagrees with you. Mesorah is worse than being a possible potential maybe source of illness.
The reality of who actually got sick versus who you were convinced would get sick don’t match. Face the music and move on.

syag, common, you are discussing some complicated and rare cases. I am suggesting to look at very simple, very basic fact: most people who were careful did not do anything bad, did not snitch, etc. Most people who were not careful put others in danger.

I do not understand what exactly is Syag challenging. There are obviously multiple random events leading to someone getting sick, but what is so difficult in the idea that the more someone who is with some chance having a virus being uncareful in presence of others leads to the other illness? Torah does not disagree with basic statistics and lots of Talmud considers effect of one’s actions on other people. Maybe you can clarify.

So add that to the fact that you were already proven to lie (see above) and don’t forget the words of Rabbi Sorotzkin and Rav Dessler who say your behavior is like those of the eruv rav.

jackk,

Thanks for responding, and I appreciate the tone of this discussion.

“My Merriam-webster’s definition of draconian is “cruel” or “severe.” It is usually used to describe harsh laws, rules, or regulations.”

Yes, and I think that definition is apropos to the Covid lockdowns and mandates. Many of the mandates were davka issued by local governments due to perceived “non-compliance” by the populace, which was ironic because the strictest mandates were typically made in places where compliance was already high (and politically safe to do so). The messaging on the mandates consistently had an air of punishment.

“For example, would you add the adjective ‘draconian’ to police shutting down a highway for an hour due to an accident ? Nobody likes it, but everyone understands the need for it.”

Yes there is no objective definition of draconian, so those opposed to a law are more likely to call it draconian than supporters. But I don’t think “draconian” and “necessary” are necessarily oxymoronic. So perhaps we can drop the word draconian and I can ask, do you feel that the Covid mandates were quite harsh?

“I believe that the crux of the issue is whether the people ordering the draconian measures had a good faith belief – at that time – that the measures were justified to save people’s health and lives.”

I disagree. As the expression goes, the road to gehennom is paved with good intentions. Human society is extremely complex, and we deserved more than a one-dimensional ham-handed authoritarian response dictated by an extremely small set of voices with a narrow vision and financial conflicts of interest.

“Just because there were other alternatives or mitigations in no way refutes, disputes, counters or proves that the reasoning behind the draconian measured was incorrect.”

Nope, the world does not work like that. We even expect our young children to consider alternatives and mitigations to their actions.

“The pikuach nefesh argument can be applied because the mesirah was done in order to protect lives not to harm the synagogue.”

No it wasn’t. As I wrote above, the result of the call was a fine and citation.

“I do not deny people being bullied. I was bullied myself and I know of many instances of the Mitzvah of “bein adam lachaveiro” that metaphorically was flushed down the toilet.
It was a very big nebach of the whole situation.”

It was not an unfortunate side-effect – bullying was actively encouraged by government officials at all levels. The Pharmaceutical companies provided wildly incorrect assessments of the effectiveness of their vaccines, and based on this information, the Biden Administration used the July 4th holiday in 2021 to declare “independence” from Covid. When the Delta wave subsequently rolled in, instead of dragging the Pharmaceutical executives into inquiries and investigating their claims, the Administration began a campaign of scapegoating those who declined vaccination or criticized any of the pandemic response orthodoxy.

“In order for us to get through Covid, we needed one plan of action.”

I think that holds true for traditional disaster response, e.g., after a hurricane or earthquake, when the response is straightforward and what is most important is proper coordination, efficiency, and speed. But we’re talking here about a global-scale situation lasting over a period of years when the parameters of the response and metrics of success are poorly understood.

“During the pandemic, the people responsible in the government had to decide a course of action.”

Or rather, provide the resources to facilitate those most directly responding to do their jobs well.

“I probably would want the advice of the person who has been at the head of infectious diseases in the US for the past 40 years.”

I’d want a multifaceted team that could devise 4-dimensional proposals to a 4-dimensional problem.

“The people who were not responsible could criticize all that they want. It was not their responsibility to safeguard the health and lives of the nation, and nobody would be blaming them for any deaths.”

I’ll let you fight this out with Always_Ask_Questions. He holds that it was indeed everyone’s responsibility, and those who disagree with him are to be blamed for the deaths.

“There was one man who shouldered the heavy responsibility and accepted all the criticisms. He did not shirk it although he knew that he would be castigated and made into the Republican’s party scapegoat.”

I really don’t understand the deification of Anthony Fauci. I think millions of people shouldered heavy responsibilities during the pandemic and made tremendous sacrifices. And nobody is immune to questions or critiques, whether their intentions were good or not.

this is not really about walking without mask, but seemingly more about Republicans not believing in vaccines,
Jacob Wallace, Paul Goldsmith-Pinkham & Jason L. Schwartz Excess Death Rates for Republicans and Democrats During the COVID-19 Pandemic, NBER September 2022

Registered Republicans in Florida and Ohio had higher excess death rates than registered Democrats, driven by a large mortality gap in the period after all adults were eligible for vaccines

We estimate substantially higher excess death rates for registered Republicans when compared to registered Democrats, with almost all of the difference concentrated in the period after vaccines were widely available in our study states. Overall, the excess death rate for Republicans was 5.4 percentage points (pp), or 76%, higher than the excess death rate for Democrats. Post- vaccines, the excess death rate gap between Republicans and Democrats widened from 1.6 pp (22% of the Democrat excess death rate) to 10.4 pp (153% of the Democrat excess death rate). The gap in excess death rates between Republicans and Democrats is concentrated in counties with low vaccination rates and only materializes after vaccines became widely available.

To calculate excess deaths, we use 577,659 deaths of individuals linked to their 2017 voting records in Ohio and Florida who died at age 25 or older between January 2018 and December 2021.
These expected deaths are calculated non-parametrically using 2019 data by aggregating deaths into counts Nmcpa,2019 at the month-by-county-by-party-by-age-bin level. The age bins used were 25-64, 65-74, 75-84, and 85-and-older

in the Covid Pre-Vaccine period, the association between excess death rates and county-level vaccination rates are nearly identical for Democrats and Republicans.
in the Covid Post-Vaccine period, there is a clear .. difference between Democrats and Republicans with higher excess death rates for Republicans in counties with lower vaccination rates. By comparison, the difference in excess deaths between Republicans and Democrats is nearly zero in counties with the highest vaccination rates.

Avram > . When the Delta wave subsequently rolled in, instead of dragging the Pharmaceutical executives into inquiries and investigating their claims

don’t blame vaccine makers for ineptness of Biden’s administration. They are seemingly only thinking about how they look. Trump was also thinking about that – while running Warp Speed at the same time.

Bourda writes that when Israelis reported to them that immunity from Delta wanes several months later, Pfizer immediately publicized that and recommended boosters, and was first met with anger from Biden’s people (including Fauci) for bad politics, but then they came around to the facts. Still, US is almost the least-boosted (and 2-nd boosted) country among OECD and this is the main source of current high mortality among seniors, while Nero declared victory and fiddles with student loans.