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Re: shuls that “did not enforce rules”
I am thinking there is a difference:
at one extreme: rules are very conservative (masks outside), most people follow them, and easy to avoid rule-breakers (big shul, ventilation or open windows, part marked for masks, etc).at another extreme: rules are written up for the health department, most people do not follow them and no consideration given to elderly, etc (small hall, closed windows)
@common-saychel
You seem to be unaware of who Rav Heineman SHLITA is if you think he has a following of 800 people. Besides, “his” pandemic decisions were the unanimous decisions of virtually all of the several dozen Rabbonim in his community.
common, If you have your own – so far unnamed – posek, follow him, gezunte heig (sic!).
I brought R Heineman to show that such positions are legitimate. I am somewhat flabbergasted that you dismiss the Rav this way. Next, you will say that Chaim Volozhin had only 400 students, R Akiva ended up with only 5, and Rashbi was OOT homeschooling his son…
Yserbius123,
“Besides, “his” pandemic decisions were the unanimous decisions of virtually all of the several dozen Rabbonim in his community.”
Unanimous and “virtually all” are not the same thing.
@common-saychel @Avram-in-MD Virtually all of the Rabbonim were part of the decision, and their vote was unanimous. I think those that were not involved were places that don’t follow them anyway, like the two Open Orthodox rabbis, or the one Chassidish place. This isn’t just the Agudah, this is pretty much the entire frum community of Baltimore. We’re talking hundreds of thousands of Yidden. And it influenced many other places, including a large percentage of the New York and Lakewood shuls. The earliest Baltimore places opened was Elul of 2020 and every shul had masks and social distancing for at least the first few months.
common, repeating, I only wanted to show that the careful position has serious Rabbis behind it. So, you can’t call people names for holding by it. R Heineman was answering shailohs that someone asked hi, he did not call for people to storm Lakewood. Continuing saying that you and your chevrah “do not give a hoot” to opinions of other Rabbis just underscore the sad picture of where are communities are.
@commonsaychel There are probably about a hundred thousand frum Yidden in Baltimore who are members of shuls that followed the psak of the Va’ad HaRabbonim. Unlike New York and Lakewood, it was a unified front of the Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshivos of Baltimore putting out very clear piskei halacho and guidelines about COVID. Because of that, many shuls outside of Baltimore in smaller affiliated communities followed it too. There are plenty of Rabbonim in New York and Lakewood that took the psak and actions of the Baltimore community to heart. About half of Lakewood reopened Shavuous, but many more did not. And of those that didn’t, many kept closed because they listened to the Baltimore Va’ad. That is all.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“So, you can’t call people names for holding by it.”
What names did he call people who held by “being careful”?
Avram, see the starting post, where common demands accountability for covid protection measures. He possibly modified his position now to only blame those who “terrorize people in other communities”, which is a welcome adjustment.
Common,
I said that before that I am in a pickle regarding daas Torah – the Rav I ask such questions, told me long time ago that there is no “daas Torah”. So, I am following DT in not following it. And if I were to follow DT, I would be in violation of DT _and_ show disrespect to my teacher, which is mefurash b’ Gemoro. But, anyway, the question on DT was for you, not for me.Common, apologize, I took your accountability mention as a fighting word rather than direct meaning. So, let’s do accountability in earnest. What are your estimates of lives lost and what balances it in different places?
@common-saychel That’s a terribly dishonest way of putting things. The people that died because of COVID rules still died from untreated COVID due to overcrowding hospitals, etc. The reason they died was because of how poorly understood the situation was initially. Which only goes to show how important it was that people followed at least the basic COVID precautions, like wearing masks in public not going to crowded indoor places, or staying away from people when you felt sick.
Common Saychel,
I am sorry that this a bit lengthy.
First of all , everyone in the CR was alive during covid and we all have first hand experiences of family and friends that suffered terribly from covid. Some of us suffered ourselves from covid and thought we were ready to go to the next world.
Some of us still have family and friends that have not yet fully recovered from the ravages that covid did to their bodies.
Second, I would not trade the zechusim that Klal Yisrael gained during Covid through trusting in Hashem, listening to their Rabbanim and Medical professionals, and being moser nefesh for normal daily Jewish activities. All the talmidim and talmidos that were moser nefesh to continue learning over the phone is a tremendous zechus.
Third, as we all experienced , everything was different during covid than during normal times. The hospitals and medical community were overloaded by the amount of people that needed urgent medical care. There were medical professionals (Nurses, Doctors, Hospital WORKERS ) who DIED due to covid exposure. There were nursing home WORKERS who DIED due to covid exposure.
Before there were vaccines, the medical community was still trying to figure out how to treat it.
Everyone was deathly afraid of the virus.
One of the miracles that I heard of is that even though Hatzalah transported thousands of covid patients, none of the Hatzalah members got sick due to their exposure.I agree that there should be a auditing of what went on during covid. But because we know more about covid now, it is too easy to look back and second guess people for their errors and inactions done while the pandemic was raging.
Rabbi Reisman shlita told of 2 amazing stories that occurred due to the camp that he made in New Hampshire during covid. One was a baby born after many years and a second was a marriage after many years.
He said that he sent a few people to check out the camp before the summer and they all said it was not possible to open. It needed a lot of work and was too far away from Jewish areas.
Only one person answered him that it might be possible. He told that one person. “OK, me and you are going to open a camp.”
Due to the camp, hundreds of bochurim were able to learn with menuchas hanefesh.If there is Covid amnesty for the liberal cathedral there should equal Jan 6th amnesty for the right wing populists. Nobody will cede any ground hence the situation we are all in here in America.
@commonsaychel I don’t understand your logic. Hundreds of thousands of people died because of COVID which was made worse because of the huge initial wave and lack of knowledge as to how to treat it, and you’re saying that somehow we should have made that wave bigger and allowed more people to catch the virus by not locking down?
Nope. He definitely didn’t say that
@SyagLchochma Point out to me where he didn’t say that.
😄😄 point to where he didn’t say it? Somewhere between your visual cortex and your ego.
CS,
I will quote the end of the article for you.
“Being unvaccinated is still a major risk factor for dying from covid-19. But efficacy wanes over time, and an analysis out last week from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention highlights the need to get regular booster shots to keep one’s risk of death from the coronavirus low, especially for the elderly.
Anthony Fauci, the nation’s preeminent infectious-disease expert, used his last White House briefing yesterday ahead of his December retirement to urge Americans to get the recently authorized omicron-specific boosters.
“The final message I give you from this podium is that please, for your own safety, for that of your family, get your updated covid-19 shot as soon as you’re eligible,” he said.
Jack, you really shouldn’t make unsupported sweeping statements. I know at least 1 Hatzala person who contracted covid by treating/transporting a covid patient. The person who transported me. I’m sure there were others.
By the way, how would you handle Andrew Cuimo? One of his biggest financial supporters was the Greater NY Hospital Association ( GNYHA ). They are the primary lobbyist for Downstate voluntary not for profit hospitals . The hospitals were filling up with covid patients who couldn’t be discharged. The problem? Hospitals don’t get paid by the day, but by the discharge so, as long as the beds stayed occupied, hospitals couldn’t bill n or admit new patients . The GNYHA came up with a solution. Prevail upon Cuomo to force nursing homes to accept the patients as transfers, whether they had covid or not. Despite protests that they weren’t set up for it and that their residents would be at great risk, Cuomo made it happen.
To noone’s great surprise, thousands of unnecessary deaths ensuedAnonymous ,
Everyone in America (and it is almost exclusive to America ) knows that Hospitals, Urgent Cares, Ambulances, Health Insurers, Drug and Vaccine Manufacturers, etc… are ALL BUSINESSES and they all constantly have money as their main goal.
It was that way before Covid, during Covid and after Covid.
Every decision that is made in a hospital has a monetary motive.If you think that they went to Cuomo and said “We need to make more money so lets force nursing homes to accept the dying patients”, I have a bridge to sell you.
I don’t recall whether I told this story before. There was a gentleman in a nursing home in Ohio who did not have a family and was reasonably healthy. He watched when Covid started the building divided into with/without covid and gradually the covid part was increasing with more people seriously sick … he was first trying to make personnel to be more careful, but then switched to extreme measures. He would let only nurses he trusted into his room. One guy came “just to take his temperature”, so he called the manager to get the guy out … when things became even worse, he simply sealed his room leaving an opening for food and slept with open windows … They had to convince him to open the door when the vaccine came … all of that to confirm the Gemora that hakol b’yaday shamayim except cold and heat …
I’m sure the guy wasn’t a hate filled hypocrite, he most definitely held his breath thru the whole exchange. Because I know that if someone is a potential danger to me the last thing I do is enter his dated Amos.
Total fakers and hateful scam artists.Jack, while I’m not interested in bridges, you’re being naive. The nursing homes had patients who, by definition, had low resistance to infections. They weren’t set up to isolate their patients from the covid patients. They begged the NYS Dept of Health for prep time. Instead, the DOH, under pressure from the GNYHA, issued a March 26 directive that not only mandated that the transfers be accepted, the homes were forbidden to administer covid tests prior to admission. The directive was rescinded in May but the damage had been done.
common, was this when your state had indoor business mask mandate?
Nice attempt to lose the point.
Bottom line, if he really believed commonsense was a danger, he wouldn’t have approached him. Fakers and hypocrites.common, if you were doing it in violation of state low, then the irony of you complaining about someone else’s behavior is too much here …
but let’s ask the serious question – what is halakha when 2 people have different opinions and need to act together. Say, you invite me to your house and your food is perfectly kosher by you, but I hold by some chumros. Would you feed me the food according to your standard or mine?!
another way to look at this: you treat the person according to what he needs/wants. If you like to tell funny good-natured jokes, but you know someone is a sensitive person and will get offended – then, you do not tell him the joke. You do not say – my jokes are good, and he had to deal with it … Similarly, we support a poor person according to his former standard (if we can). Same thing here, you have a person who is afraid of something – why would you not accommodate him just because you have some machlokes with the government. Just show some chesed.
I was in the library yesterday and I heard a lady say. “Chani, how are you? You were out yesterday and today weren’t you?”
Chani said, “yes, I have strep”
I have a very new grandchild and strep can be dangerous so guess what I did? I made sure NOT to go anywhere near her. Because that’s what you do when you actually believe someone could be contagious and could harm you.
Actions speak louder than words.Syag, you are right. and mazal tov. I am not sure what is the point discussing the person who went mishugene and about whose existence we know second-hand. At the same time, we have here a sensible person admitting to his behavior …
there is also a difference between you meeting one person with strep who is also not expecting to meet someone who is vulnerable and a pandemic situation where everyone is surrounded by potential dangers. Just put yourself in the shoes of someone who might be vulnerable, and then he needs to go to the store, and people around do not do a simple thing, required by law (NY store mandate was lifted Feb 2022).
To use your analogy, say, I know I had exposure to strep and I see a little baby in the library. I am going to avoid that baby or where a mask if I need to pass by.
I didn’t bring the baby to the library and no, there is no difference between worrying about exposure and worrying about exposure. If the man really and honestly believed commonsense posed a danger he would have kept his distance. But he didn’t. Why didn’t he? Because he wasn’t really worried about covid, he just wanted to be a baal machlokes. How do we know this? Because if he really believed that an unmasked man posed a danger he would have run in the other direction. He was just a baal machlokes.
Side point- if you had strep and went out with a mask, I still wouldn’t let you near me because masks were proven to be useless.
Common I have a similar story: my wife was in the grocery store and she was wearing a mask, while my three year old was not. This was a little after the merciful overlords told lifted the ban. A purple haired troll of a woman yelled at my wife and daughter telling my terrified daughter her mother was a bad person while filming them both telling them it was going on YouTube.
My wife tried to remain calm but eventually went for the jugular and told the nut job that just because no one didn’t want to have children with her doesn’t mean she has the right to raise other peoples children.
My daughter is still weary of masked people now, I think that will serve her well in life.
Common, you are focusing on apparently one person who attacked you for not wearing mask. Think about probably hundreds of people that you encountered while being a mazik. Most of these dignified people walked around you (and possibly murmured something anti-Semitic). This still does not explain why you were behaving this way..
Even more chilling, I was reading from a book called “The End Illuminated” by Rabbi Sortzkin. He brings a few paragraphs about how during covid the people who focused on pointing fingers at world leaders, doctors and politicians. “How critical were we of those whom we felt were too lax about safety measures? How much did we rely on those protective measures?”
He then continues in this vein regarding the vaccine being met with flaming rhetoric. He quotes rav Dessler in saying that this display is “kochi votzem yadi” and is the main characteristic of the eruv rav.
If that doesn’t shake you into making some changes I don’t know what will.Syag,
your quote is not fully clear to me, but I found a couple of quotes from R Yisroel Moshe Sorotzkin online, very interesting, thanks. I am with you (and him) that Covid was (is?) an unusual punishment that has serious messages to us – especially when people were isolated, public institutions closed…so far, I do not see public reaction that answers this message.
One type of reaction is to ignore the restrictions and continue “as usual”. This seems to ignore the message R Sorotzkin underscores. “Thanks for your message, Hashem, we are going as usual”.
Another approach from some – to double-down, increase learning, better davening, increase outreach, etc. This is very respectable approach, but I am not sure it is still responsive to the message. It is like when Hashem is punishing mitzrim with blood in the water – they respond with more blood … If Hashem closed all shuls, did he davka want them to daven louder?! I presume he wanted a qualitative change.
The approach that resonated with me was the one that Yidden should look with a fresh eye at their family, strengthen their connection, sometimes learn how to live – and to learn – with your family members, who you used to see for only 2 hours a day; strengthen connection to your friends, making sure they are OK; consider safety of others, including strangers. This last part sounds like a most profound religious message – you may unknowingly harm someone, whether a close elderly relative or a totally unknown person, via a routine interaction. Many people would be willing to do this in limited case, say when visiting a hospital, but being careful on a daily basis seems to be too much for most of population.
Here, let’s try again without your summation, reinterpretation and denial. Are you ready to accept from someone much greater than you how wrong your behavior was?
Here you go.
“He brings a few paragraphs about how during covid the people who focused on pointing fingers at world leaders, doctors and politicians. “How critical were we of those whom we felt were too lax about safety measures? How much did we rely on those protective measures?””
He quotes rav Dessler in saying that this display is “kochi votzem yadi” and is the main characteristic of the eruv rav.you would need to expand on what he is actually saying for me to understand this intriguing quote.
what is it about vaccine met with “flaming rhetoric” – by whom, flaming which way. given that the whole world is flaming one way or the other, I am not sure what is he saying.
Cute. I deliberately left that out of the recap to prevent you from getting distracted by it. Here it is again. Not too confusing.
“He brings a few paragraphs about how during covid the people who focused on pointing fingers at world leaders, doctors and politicians. “How critical were we of those whom we felt were too lax about safety measures? How much did we rely on those protective measures?””
He quotes rav Dessler in saying that this display is “kochi votzem yadi” and is the main characteristic of the eruv rav.
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