Over-Educated Girls

Charliehall: I’m hardly misquoting: “And that is pretty irrelevant to torah study because women are obligated in all but about a dozen mitzvot from the torah. It is not an “optional mitzvah” for women to learn torah.”

If you do indeed agree that it’s optional, then may I ask why are the women in your neighborhood spending their precious time studying Gemora; in their intention to do God’s will, or is it merely to perpetuate their feminist agenda and show their independence from the Frum establishment? If the latter is correct, then their studying has no spiritual value and will never lead to having any spiritual meaning to them.

False myfriend.

The conclusion is that women are not allowed to be TAUGHT Torah shebaal peh.

And even that conclusion is shaky. Otherwise, you are saying every Bais Yaakov is teaching tiflus? With the exception of Satmar maybe, EVERY girls school teaches Rashi.

So, I didn’t call the SA false. It talks about TEACHING torah shebaal peh to women.

I haven’t learnt it inside in a long time. So maybe GAW can clear things up.

But please explain how BYs teach rashi.

myfriend,

SJS just proved that we don’t follow the Shulchan Aruch on this.

The BYs teach rashi by learning it in a very superficial way that has nothing to do with torah and is therefore not a problem.

This is how the womens gemara classes do it as well.

Women don’t just learn Rashi. They learn many, many meforshim in depth. Rambam, Ramban, Radak, Eben Ezra…are those just “pshat” too? I’m talking about very Yeshivish Bais Yaakovs here.

So a question to you myfriend: do you think women who learn TSBP (and lets include Rashi and all the meforshim here) should be blacklisted on the shidduch market? They are going against the SA!

As an aside, I’m ashkenazi. Ashkenazim usually follow the Rema on the SA, not the SA itself, no?

“This is how the womens gemara classes do it as well. “

WADR, you have no idea what you are talking about. Have you ever met some of the women who have completed programs at Midreshet Lindenbaum, Drisha, Nishmat, or GPATS?

“Women may not learn the Written Torah in depth”

So must we burn Nechamah Leibowitz’s books?

My Friend: SJS is right. Shulchan Aruch discusses a Father’s obligation to teach his children Torah; in other words, teaching a young child w/o his/her consents. However, a girl on her own may learn Torah Shbaal Peh and she receives schar as stated explicitly in the S”A at the beginning of that same se’if. According to your [mis]understanding, the S”A would be contradictory in the same se’if.

Do you not know that Rav Isser Zalmen Meltzer’s rebbitzin wrote the sefer Even Ha’azil for her husband?

Charliehall: we seem to be going around in circles; is it optional or obligatory? It’s either one or the other, [not that complicated], so please explain?

I also wonder whether anyone has any halachik opinions about women learning the laws, le’havdil alfei havdalos, of other nations? Any problems with that aside from the shidduch issues that started this thread? Like women lawyers, you know.

Chassidim – anti

Litvish – pro

Now I’m not talking about Gemorah, more re: Perushim

And that is an opinion, not a fact.

Dr. Hall:

The actual Shittos of what the Rav actually held are so confused, I hesitate to tie down his shitta, since I did not hear it from him directly.

Dr. Hall, my symbolic logic is pretty rusty but you have to understand how easy it is to misconstrue the words that communities have a chiyuv to teach women gemara. A corollary might be assumed to be that the community is remiss if they don’t offer full opportunities to learn gemara, including appropriate prep; and that women are remiss if they don’t avail themselves of these opportunities.

I personally am quite glad that my schools’ curricula never included gemara. It would have been an unsatisfying waste of my time (as opposed to satisfying wastes of time, like that spent on the computer…?).

” I hesitate to tie down his shitta, since I did not hear it from him directly. “

That is ok, my rav did. And of the thousands of his talmidim, there is only one, Rav Meiselman, who thinks that The Rav didn’t really mean it when he said he wanted gemara to be available to women.

And The Rav *personally* taught gemara to women so there is no question that he thought this was not a theoretical matter.

‘Can you please bring Talmudic sources for this psak of Rav Soloveichik Zt”l that communities are obligated to teach women Gemora?’

No. He never wrote a halachic tshuvah on this. (He rarely wrote a halachic tshuvah on anything; one of the few things for which we have a written halachic opinion from The Rav is an endorsement of co-ed schools.

” [If you are allowed to question Rash”i’s opinion, we may definitely question Rav Soloveichik’s.”

Certainly! Many have done so and continue to do so, and not just in the Charedi world. For example, Rav Aviner in Israel forbids women being taught gemara. (I’m not aware of any non-Charedi rabbis in America who do.) But Rav Soloveitchik is a legitimate gedol and my rav — and the rabbis of my community — are entitled to follow him.

” Also, since the Rishonim have not stated such an obligation, shouldn’t this psak be considered another one of your examples of arguing with rishonim?]”

Absolutely. As I pointed out, poskim — especially Ashkenazic poskim — can and do argue on rishonim even when there is no rishon to back them up.

“I also wonder whether anyone has any halachik opinions about women learning the laws, le’havdil alfei havdalos, of other nations?”

I can’t imagine why there would be any issur in learning the laws that you are required to follow in the society in which you live. After all, dina malchutcha dina *is* the halachah. And accidental violations can carry severe penalties as we see with the bocherim in Japan; had they been smuggling the antiquities they thought they were smuggling they would have paid a fine and been released. (Of course, smuggling violates halachah too, but that is another issue.)

Not having access to the sources, did the Rav endorse coed schools or allow them under given circumstances?

Charliehall: “Strictly speaking, there is no chiyuv even for *men* to learn gemara. It is just better to learn all the sources for the halachah if you want to be as careful as possible in mitzvot and that applies to men and women.”

[and hence connecting to God] with each word of Torah that they utter from their mouths while studying.

In addition one should be careful to draw a line between sincere criticism to feeling/expressing intolerance for other people. Just thought it might be appropriate to post this from a different CR thread:

[and hence connecting to God] with each word of Torah that they utter from their mouths while studying.”

Speak for yourself. We absolutely consider it a mitzvah and a connection to God.

“modern orthodoxy is about compromising halacha.”

Nope. As Rov Soloveitchik z’tz’l is reported to have said, “Moderation is not compromise.” And he had a very close relationship with R’Kotler, even raising money for him.

“The issue with Modern Orthodoxy is that their Judaism carries no spiritual significance”

Again, speak for yourself, not for others — and unless you have the power to read minds, don’t question the spiritual lives of others.

For me, there is tremendous spiritual value in doing something — anything — that is commanded by my Creator.

“Is it a chiyuv to learn Gemorah w/o any relation to acquiring the know how to practice halachos properly; yes or no?”

I don’t know why it would be. There is a lot of other torah that can be learned: Chumash, Nach, Ketuvim, Machshevah, Midrash….all fulfill the mitzvah of talmud torah.

I think most would argue that knowing the halachic sources in the gemara does enable one to understand the halachah better.

Oh, from the girls perspective?

I wasn’t discussing that. If I was a girl, and felt constricted by the lack of intellectuality in my education, I would probably go to a serious university program.

If I thought I needed to learn torah to fulfill it, I would at least question whether I was really looking for something besides intellectualism. I would also question whether the torah I would be learning was actually going to be the real depth.

I once was on a date and the girl mentioned that her friends were at a gemara shiur. I asked why, and she answered they find it intellectual. They were learning arei miklat. Very intellectual, huh?

Still, if I really wanted to, I would do it.

Charliehall: “I don’t know why it would be. There is a lot of other torah that can be learned: Chumash, Nach, Ketuvim, Machshevah, Midrash….all fulfill the mitzvah of talmud torah.”

This statement explains to me why you/your circles do not grasp the greatness of Rishonim/Talmidic sages; and have difficulty comprehending the “Pinimiyus”/spiritual essence of Judaism.

Let me explain, in the Chareidi outlook of Judaism, one of the most central and core beliefs are that the mitzvah of Talmud Torah is very different than all other mitzvah obligations. The Chareidim believe that Torah [Chumash and Talmud] is a spiritual entity which God has [Kaviyachol]imparted part of Himself into, thereby creating this spiritual entity of Torah.

One of the many sources for this belief [which include the Zohar and numerous midrashim] is from the Pasuk in Devorim: “V’atem H’dveikim B’Hashem Elokeichem Chaim Kulchem Hayom”-the midrash questions how can we actually connect with God and become eternal like Him, isn’t God an essence of fire like the posuk says “Eish Ochla Hu”? Answers the midrash, through connecting ourselves to the entity of Torah by learning and supporting its learning we are actually connecting with God Himself through this medium, as the Torah is also an essence of fire like God Himself [since God has imparted Himself into it Kaviyochol]as the Posuk says “Divarei K’eish Ni’um Hashem” and “Ner Mitzvah V’Torah Ohr”. So, by learning Torah (or supporting learning) we become actually part of this entity ourselves and then we are also transformed to become this essence of spiritual fire, as stated in Gemorah Chagiga that the Fire of Gehinnom cannot consume a Talmid Chochom since he is also an essence of fire through the Torah which became an actual part of him through him learning it. This is what the posuk means when it states “Chaim Kulchem Hayom”.

This understanding of Torah and its learning is also conveyed to us in the Zohar which states “God, the Torah, and Yisroel are One”-meaning one spiritual entity, which happens only through Jews actual studying the Torah and connecting with/becoming part of its spiritual entity. Similarly, the Midrash consistently refers to the Torah as an independent spiritual creation (not merely a compilation of laws), like the famous midrash which says that Torah was “created” before the world was created, and numerous other midrashim and Gemoras.

Therefore the Chareidim believe that the obligation to study Torah is in order for us to connect with God himself through this medium of Torah. Obviously, this is very different from other mitzvos, which the purpose of fulfilling them is merely to do God’s will, but not to actually connect with Him. It is for this very reason, why Charedim believe that the more sweat and toil that is exerted while learning, will greatly enhance and intensify this mitzvah of Talmud Torah, since by the act of toiling over the Gemora one connects himself even deeper to the entity of Torah and then God himself. [The midrash Mishlei says its an obligation to master the knowledge of all the written Gemorah of at least two sedarim, including many parts which are unrelated to halacha].

So therefore there is plenty reason for opting to learn Gemorah over Midrash/Chumash even if unrelated to halacha, since there is much more intense concentration needed to learn Gemoah, and hence more deeper connection to the Torah, which is the real purpose of this unique mitzvah. The Chareidim actually experience and feel this spiritual meaning and elevation when studying (or supporting Torah) as a result of their belief in it.

From understanding this concept, one may then come to realize the greatness of the Rishonim and previous Gedolim; who even after acquiring the knowledge to pasken Halachos, have then went on to continue to learn the whole Sha”s hundred of times in order for them to master literally seeing before their eyes the whole Talmud in their minds. Their understanding was, that the more one acquaints himself with the words of the Talmud, then the more he becomes a part of the Torah, and the more he becomes a living connection with God himself. [This is what the Gemorah means when it states “one cannot compare one who has learned Sha”s one hundred times, to one who has learned it one hundred and one times”; meaning that even though both may be similarly knowledgeable in paskening halachos, still one who has learned sha”s an extra time is more familiar/acquainted with the actual words of the talmud so therefore the Torah has been more imparted on him than it has been imparted on the other person.