Over-Educated Girls

And even if it is, you have a kasha on that; it doesn’t change halacha.

Which is why the Brisker Mehalech avoids at all costs a Machloykes in Metzius.

In fact, the question is asked (for example, by Yesh B’Gidin Nosen Ta’am) why not go out and check the Metzius? And the answer is not “That’s the halacha, you have a Kasha” 🙂

Myfriend. I did. As I suspected. You misrepresent Rashi.

GAW: Learning Torah is an obligation for a man not a privilege. Obviously Chaza”l meant to explain why a women does not require Torah learning in order for them to reach perfection, and that is why the Torah has not obligated them to study Torah, as we learn from the posuk “Vishinantum L’banecha V’loa L’binosecha”.

Of course women may study as much Torah as they wish, the same way Rash”i’s daughters have studied. However, one may question what their true motives are when studying; is their sole purpose just to send a feminist message to the Frum world? Or is it their sincere desire for spiritual fulfillment that urges them to study Torah?

BTW: Are you a Gavra or a woman? If the former, then why do feel compelled to defend your opposite gender? If the latter, then you should be well aware that the Torah recognizes a women as having the same spiritual status as a man. And in many areas in halacha and agaddah it is the women rather then the man who is given unique status.

Who said women are dummies? sheesh, everyone just brings up their agendas and ignores any resemblance of a conversation based on facts. Come, let’s blame this on…kollel…or yeshivish people…because you need to respect all opinions and people and be open minded…expect yeshivish ones…yes, I’m venting.

SJS, WOLF –

Typically, if she’s get the degree with shiniu, then the poskim are matir bdieved, as long as she doesn’t actually know what she’s talking about – because then it would be meleches machsheves.

This law is based on the Mishnah (Sotah 20a). Rashi says that women’s minds are not meant for serious Torah learning.

By so right (sic) on page 2.

Moq:

Sounds like a dummy 🙂 Now if you said a woman’s role in Yiddishkeit is not meant for serious torah learning, I would agree. It is the “minds” part that bothers me.

BTW, it is all the fault of Kollel. Women also want to sit and learn and have their wives or FIL support. It is, as the Mishna says one should work doing, an “Umnus Kalla U’Nekiya”. 🙂

Gavra-

I hope that what he meant that Hashem didn’t design them for it , and gave them talents that men don’t have for other areas. Hashem gives up what we need for the mission we have. It’s a pretty good way to figure out your mission.

Again, Beruriah was pretty darn smart – more then her husband R’ Meir ( she seems to bested him in every argument they have. Except for their last one, which unfortunately resulted in her death and R’ Meir eternal embarrassment, so I’m not sure if he chalked it up as a victory.)

As an overeducated woman (there is, by the way, no such thing) and coming from a family of overeducated women (we are all doctors, lawyers, dentists and cpas) im amazed to hear the stupidity that is coming from people. Firstly, i was married by the age of 21 which i dont think is old and none of the prof women i know – and i knwo many – were married older than 23). Secondly choosing to have fewer kids is a personal decision and maybe a brighter one at that – Im choosing to have only as many children as I can afford meaning i pay full tuition for camp and school and dont accept medicaide welfare etc. maybe its because im educated that i can come to the conclusion that the goal is to have a happy family not to have as many kids as your body will allow while you worry about the bills every month because neither you nor your husband are making a living bec its not kosher to go to school (gd forbid someone should go to college or heavens no medical school!!!). the reason why so many yeshivos are in debt is because no one is making a living. i knwo the recession has hurt a lot of pple but what about before the recession? what about the women (and of course men) who felt no need to go to college and grade school so they can better provide for their families? isnt this one reason why so many yeshivos have no money for mortgages and salaries? stop considering an educated girl over educated, instead look at her as a prize. And an educated girl doesnt want your uneducated son to ride on her coat tails. go to school and make something of yourself so you have something to give to future generations….

Popa

LOL! What made you think I am an International

Law Student? (Although that would be pretty cool)

Myfriend. If you didnt quote Rashi, why did you jump down my throat when I made a comment that I doubted the veracity of the quote attributed to Rashi? You then tell me to look at a Rashi in sotah. I did. Again, no Rashi on daf chaf in sotah says what was claimed Rashi said. Neither does the gemara in kiddushin, according to either opinion, Ben Azzai or R’ Eliezer (elazar?), certainly not according to the way Rashi explains the gemara. If you did not say anything about Rashi, then my comment wasnt pointed to you and you should chill out. I’ll ignore your snide remarks I’m not looking to get into a tit for tat with you.

Since you are giving these 2 sources. Why don’t you tell me what you believe they are teaching us?

As a 24 year old single and female law student I can relate to the some of the things mentioned in this thread. In addition to being able to relate to some of what was said , I disagree with some of what was said in the thread. I will attempt to point out the statements I agree with, the statements I disagree with, and then finally set out a theory as to the “single female law student/lawyer crisis of 2010.”

1- I agree with asyyeger’s claim that many guys do not want to seriously date and marry women who are smarter than they are. I had this conversation with a young man I was on a date with yesterday and he agreed and admitted to having many friends who feel intimidated by women that are smarter than they are on dates. Because I am a smart woman I have often been told (generally by my father) to be less obvious about my intellect on dates. His theory is that men are intimidated by smart women and it is best to slowly let the man see your intelligence. My constant response to him is, “I don’t know how to control it.” I’d like to think that the man I marry will be appreciate my intelligence. Perhaps this is too much to ask…

2- In addition I agree with asyyeger’s point that law school teaches you how to think like a lawyer and that overflows into other parts of your life. Recently I’ve been receiving comments that I need to “stop talking like a lawyer.” Again, this is not something I can control and if I actively find myself “talking like a lawyer” I attempt to stop myself. However, I am (or will be) and shouldn’t have to quash tha aspect of my personality.

3- A third point where I agree with asyyeger, time to date. Clearly I have or make the time to date when I mentioned above that I had a date with a guy last night (who was not intimidated by my intelligence) and have another guy flying across the country to date me tomorrow (yes I double date- at “my age” you can’t afford to give up an opportunity that arises). There’s enough time to date. Did I mention I had a boyfriend my entire first year of law school? Like anything else in life, if it’s a priority you will make time for it.

4- I very much hear the point of apushatayid. If I were 24 and had no job or career at all I would be considered a moocher. But did we forget about the guys that are moochers? I was talking to a guy I went out with a few years ago who at that point didn’t like me because he was intimidated by my intelligence. On the date he told me the only reason he went to college is so girls wouldn’t say no him in shidduchim. He’s now 31 years old, still single, and something important on his list is an accomplished girl. How is that fair to the girl to be accomplished when her husband isn’t her equal? A friend of mine said to me earlier today that a person is happiest when they think they have something of value and even happier when they don’t fully believe they deserve that item. How can a girl be happy if she doesn’t believe she has something of value?

5- Whoever said OT/PT/Speech is harder than law school has clearly never been to law school. This not meant to minimize the difficulty of OT/PT, but I’ve watched my therapist friends and I’ve been through law school. There is no way and no comparison in the difficulty of the schooling of the different careers.

6- As for establishing my own theory of the “female law student shidduch crisis of 2010,” I think it’s a triangle. The same rational that is applied to the agism in shidduchim applies to the intelligent female. Let me start by explaining the age triangle for those who are unfamiliar with it. A popular theory is that there are so many more “older” single girls than “older” single guys because as a guy gets older his pool gets larger while as a girl gets older her pool only gets smaller. A 30 year old guy can easily be set up with a 22 year old girl while a 30 year old girl will (almost) never be set up with a 22 year old guy. This creates somewhat of a triangle, as the guy gets older he climbs to the peak to look down at his potential mates while as a girl gets older she climbs to the peak only able to look up to her potential mates. The same is true for men and women and intelligence. A smarter, more educated, male can be set up with a smarter, more educated, female while a smarter, more educated, female will generally only be set up with more educated men. Again, this creates a similar triangle affect.

Now, imagine combining the two triangles? You can see how as an educated guy gets older even if the width of the base of his triangle remains the same the width of the peak of the girls triangle has just become vastly narrower.

Lawgirl – You’ve won your case, that’s for certain. And the gap only gets wider; while we hope you file for a marriage license soon – in two year (one?) you’ll be an associate at…oh, ENY or something and then what?

As you said, the gap only widens. Then what?

The only thing I can tell you is that men often thrive after marriage; frankly, as I said before, girls do better then men in their single years. Perhaps seeing a guy’s potential may be worthwhile. Healthy marriages energize men, and they often accomplish far more then they do in their single years, with someone relying on them. But yes, it is absolutely essential to marry some you genuine respect.

And some guys do indeed seek intellectual equals (or better). I did back in the day. Shadchanim redt me “the strange” girls (do you know what it is like to take a chemist to a chinese restaurant?) My friends though, weren’t interested.

I would like to tell myself that it has something to with self-confidence and self-image, but I honestly think it has to do with their image of the ideal feminine (flighty, ditzy, oh so cute) & type of marriage they want. In other words, not better or worse. Just different. B”H my story ended well.

Hatzlacha!

“And if we happen to pasken like one rishon over another, we don’t call the other wrong. “

This isn’t a matter of paskening, this is a matter of facts.

“His theory is that men are intimidated by smart women and it is best to slowly let the man see your intelligence”

Not all men. My wife regularly beats me at Scrabble.

” If she abuses her intellect, then that’s another story.”

That applies to men, too!

this is insane. a girl can be as educated as she wants and if a guy is intimidated by her….then he shouldntt go out with her or whatever it is. she is too good for him and he doenst deserve her

Mrs-

Very well said.

my friend:

and girls that went to Bnos Chava.

Charlie:

Who are your views representative of? Do other modern orthodox have a similar attitude towards Rashi?

Feel free to chime in, any other MO posters; is it ok to argue with a rishon?

Minyangal, how about conservative, what do you say?

popa,

Poskim, especially Ashkenazic ones, will argue on *halachah* with rishonim, even when they don’t have a competing rishon to back them up. Kal v’chomer on a matter of empirical fact. We don’t follow Rambam’s medical advice when it disagrees with modern science. We don’t follow Ibn Ezra’s geography when it is clearly at odds with the actual geography of Eretz Yisrael. The rishonim were great, but they didn’t have access to the facts we have today. They were experts in Torah, not science or geography.

myfriend, women are allowed to learn gemara. The question is really whether or not you can formally teach them.

Really, would you trust a religion where more than 50% of its members were cut off from major chunks of information? I wouldn’t.

Charlie Hall: You state from Rav Soloveitchik Zt”l that he paskened that women have ‘chiyuv’ to actually study gemorah; are you implying that Jewish women over the past millennium have repeatedly transgressed this obligation by merely practicing halachos w/o actually studying them inside from their sources?

Also pretty interesting to me that you believe that following blindly a Rav’s instructions constitutes a Mitzvah never mind an obligation, especially when it runs counter to what it states in the Gemorah which I quoted above that women are NOT obligated to actually study gemorah in depth.

My Friend: Women are not prohibited from learning Gemorah, it’s not any different from Mitzvos Sh’zman Grama which women are not obligated in, but may nevertheless practice on their own will.

“Some achoaronim were willing to, but there is no contemporary posek who will.”

Not true. An obvious example of this is the unwillingness to accept the Ethiopian Jews as Jews despite the fact no rishon agrees (and the Radvaz paskened otherwise). Another obvious example is the ban on university education; I’ve seen no rabbinic objection prior to the 19th century (and Sforno earned his medical degree at the University of Rome).

“it is hard to consider psychology a matter of empirical fact. “

Some psychology *is*; I’ve personally published a lot of psychology data. But that isn’t what we are talking about here: The fact is that there ARE women who are outstanding torah scholars and teachers.