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Sac- it was residential. If it had been something bigger than that I would have assembled a team to handle different aspects. When I am involved in large value transactions I am not DIY.
So, a lawyerette at 23? How’d’ya pull that off- a “summertime” undergrad degree and then law school at 20? (that definitely doesn’t make you over educated by any standard)
Women who are educated are better able to afford housekeeping help and therefore, can spend more quality time with their families. Unfortunately, the more right wing one moves, the less desire there is for education. If the cycle we live in continues, the next generation will not have parents wealthy enough to support the ‘learning lifestyle’.
When did making a living become unacceptable for the male population. I always understood that in the Ketubah, the husband is supposed to support his wife, to provide her with all her needs.
Apushatayid: “According to my parenting class, its not good parenting to be be cross-examining your kids. I guess the guy who gives the class never went to law school and doesn’t know the thrill of a cross examination :)”
Don’t underestimate the thrill of finding out the true identity of “Not Me” and “I Don’t Know”!
I was reading through this discussion and I realized that we are talking about lawyers as being “too overeducated” in the jewish world. I agree that being a lawyer is very taxing on a family post schooling as many firms want you to work long and hard hours.
But what about dentistry? I have seen a new trend of frum girls moving toward dentistry as they can make their own hours and support a family comfortably while being there for a family.
Is the problem with overeducation that the boys are intimidated by education or worried their wife would not be home for them? Bec to me dentistry seems like a perfect balance.
1- Sacri, you will forgive my shock that you are Sacriledge Esq.
2- The reason that boys rot has nothing to do with Yeshivas or sems. It has to do with realities. “Lo Tov L’Adam Lhiyos Lavado” – while men have less of an imperative to get married, Hashem designed the world that a supportive wife empowers a man to be successful. Girls do just fine without men. Girl’s apartments are clean, their bills paid, and everything is taken care of off.
Have you ever seen a bachur dira? While we see successful single secular men, 90% of the time they are involved in a relationship or multiple relationships, relying on easy access female energy. Yeshiva bachurim…rot.
This is how Hashem designed the world. So we marry off a Yeshiva guy at 23, before the rot kicks. 24…25…fine. After that, things start to rot. I’ve seen illuyim, masmidim, go down the tubes while trying to marry.
And girls? Well, they don’t rot. They have time, no responsibility, and are intelligent and capable. And they use it. And pretty soon you’ve got zhloby yeshiva guy & Nuclear physicist going out for dinner. She’s knows the lounge by heart, local tax laws, the history of every landmark…and he has had a “rough zman”.
While obviously, many Yeshivaliet manage to keep going – there was famous one in the Mir in Yerushalyim who got married when he was forty, who had a bunch of seforim out – many rot. Ironic. But true.
Squeak (and I guess Moq)
Techinically I am not an Esq. since I never took the Bar. Thats my single biggest problem the “what if” what if I move out of NY and then I would have wasted all that time studying for the NY Bar… I think I am what you call a JD equivilent.
And I am the last person any one would call “over-educated”
Squeak (only you now 😉
If it was a single family or even a 2-3 family home I dont think any firm would have taken on the case. It’s too much work and probably not much of a payout.
Cool. Sac’s a lawyer. There are very few frum female lawyers. This may belong in the “If you were discovered…” thread.
Sac- just a bit of unasked-for advice from someone who has been there. Consider taking the bar. If you can make the time now, realize that it is easier now than later as you still have the habits and knowledge from school. Also, you may not have as much time as you do now in the future. And if you do move out of New York, it will probably always be useful and helpful to have been admitted to the New York bar.
Facts are the many educated professional women have unhappy married lives, are miserable themselves, their husbands have to look forward to coming home to “another man” and they usually have zero marriages.
A woman belongs in the home.
Sacrilege, please clarify. Are you an attorney admitted to practice before the courts of New York?
Simcha 44:
“In this day and age, especially with all the Touro programs and even online programs, it is inexcusable for a man or woman not to pursue a degree of some sort.”
I’m sorry? Who appointed you to tell an entire generation what they must do with their lives? Everybody has the right to do as they see fit, and not everybody must live their lives just like you live yours. A little bit of tolerance would be nice.
“Most of the guys who fit this “mold” cannot pass a 5th grade spelling or grammar test, nor can they speak above a mumble or without forcefully inserting random Yiddish and Aramaic words out of context.”
Ooh, where to start…
Did you give “most of the guys who fit this mold” a 5th grade spelling test? No? Then what gives you the right to make such a massive and derogatory generalization? I’ll have you know that there are plenty of learning boys who speak an flawless and intelligent english. Seriously, drop your ugly stereotypes and open your mind just a little bit.
And them the yeshivish get blasted for supposedly looking down on those more modern than them…
frumladygit – well said.
The truth is often not politically correct these days. So expect to take a lot of flak for your pointed comment.
HaShem’s name in English is to have a capital “G” at the beginning.
Homeowner
I am not admitted with the Bar Association.
Yitayningwut: In reference to your quote from Talmud Yerushalmi, that it’s a positive thing for a girl/woman to study Greek (?????? ). the Gemarah (Talmud Bavli) makes a distinction between studying the language ?????? and the Greek Culture ???? ?????? . The former is OK even for men. The latter, with all its baggage of Mythology and other subjects that border on Avodah Zara, (Idol worship)and other negative aspects, like the Olympics (Ancient)is prohibited. So, please clarify which part is considered a ????? an enhancement.
mw13- “And then the yeshivish get blasted for supposedly looking down on those more modern than them… “
Well said.
Sacrilege, here’s a friendly tip: Be more careful in what you write.
When you say, “However, not all lawyers want to make partner in a top tier firm. I work in a small to mid-size firm and my main focus is Tax Certiorari. . .” it sounds like you are claiming to be an attorney, which evidently you are not.
Ask a lawyer in your firm what the letters “UPL” stand for.
It’s perfectly respectable to be a legal secretary or paralegal. On the other hand, if you actually graduated law school and are not yet admitted, you may find yourself skating on thin ice when you appear before the Character Committee and are asked the questions regarding having held yourself out as practicing law or being entitled to practice law.
Incidentally, no lawyers in New York are “admitted with the Bar Association” or even to the Bar Association. New York lawyers are admitted to practice before the courts.
Whatever you do and wherever you do it it’s surprising you didn’t recognize the phrase “admitted to practice before the courts of New York” in my question as it’s part of a standard affirmation lawyers make all the time.
As we used to say, been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
Again, just a piece of friendly advice.
frumladygit,
Of course I can’t speak for all professional women, only from personal experience. My two sisters are happily married physicians. I can assure you that their husbands do not think of them as “another man”; one sister has a newborn and the other is expecting iy”h next year.
Anon-
How does that work through internship – I could see private practice working , but anyhow have a normal life during internship?
Homeowner
Sounds like this is more about a woman being nearly on pace with you than you misunderstanding what I wrote 😉
The essential pre-requisite for any discussion of the ideal of women being at home is a large supply of frum men ready and able to fully support their families from the wedding day on.
The harsh reality for frum women now is that they must get as strong an education (parnasah related) as possible in order to survive with any dignity.
One sister finished training right before her wedding, but the other is doing a fellowship now. Her husband has a more flexible job, so they travel together to seminars and conferences. Most fellowships are less time-consuming and more flexible than residencies though (internship is the first year of residency and often the most intense).
I do know of women who’ve married during medical school or residency and had babies during those years. Generally I’d say that they have supportive spouses and/ or support from family and friends–just like men who start families during med school and residency do.
We have to stop forcing our wives and mothers to be working stiffs, going against their nature, and then we can return to sanity and Yiddishe women will not feel forced to educate themselves with what they don’t need.
The stereotype is certainly that lawyers/doctors/executives have a rough time carving out time for a family.
BY girls hence attacked flexible professions en masse – Speech, OT, etc. etc. , on the basis it would let them take home cash without destroying their family life, giving them the flexibility to switch from part time to full time and back.
But the I think the intimidation issue exist with any successful young professional girl – even an OT/PT etc. , and we are mixing two conversation here – can a Lawyer be a wife as well – and why are boys intimidated by successful girls.
Certainly, any girl who’s prime focus is her career will chase away a Ben Torah – working or not. And certainly some professions require total dedication. But I think the intimidation issue exist solely based on a single girl’s success.
And Sacri – you should be zoche to a wig before you get the robe.
Josh/Chevra – but it’s pretty much a reality everywhere; dual income is standard in the US, even with secular families without seven tuitions. It’s sad, and we’re paying the price – yeah, our girls usually need a job, learning or not. The base you need for survival – tuitions & chasunas is about 150k a year. How many guys make that much money, no matter how educated? It happens, but it’s usually not the case. It’s dual professional or the highway. What on earth should we do? A girl can easily double her income with a decent degree ( think PT versus secretary ). What else can they do? What else can we do? They DO need it.
I think the concept of “over-educated” women bothers men because they start to wonder about “kalot rosh” with regard to women.
But my experience still stands. Those “over-educated” women are often able to accomplish what they do BECAUSE they haven’t gotten married young, not vice versa. Not all of course, but most.
Hmmm… “Nashim Datam Kalos Hem” is unrelated to intellectual capabilities. Women are just as smart as guys. The Gemara speaks of Beruriah as being intellectually beyond many Amoraim, yet holds her up as a prime example Kalus Hem.
Who ever said women are stupid? Certainly intelligent men don’t believe that. While certainly some girls are “flighty” many are not. Some guys are flighty too, just in a guy way.
Though you are right; women thrive with the “extra time”.
To mw13 or to whomever I’ve apparently inadvertently offended…
1. There’s a problem that most bochurim are naive and don’t realize what it’s like to raise a family and the financial responsibilities that it entails. They therefore go without a plan. If someone truly has a realistic plan (aside for draining their parents’ savings), wonderful. Otherwise, it’s pretty difficult to be qualified to do much without a degree. I’m not asking anyone to be like me.
2. I did NOT say “ALL boys enrolled in yeshiva are like that…”, I said “MANY who fit that ‘mold'”, so there’s certainly no stereotype. Don’t twist my words. It’s a fact that many of these girls end up dating those type of guys, there are no generalizations being made.
Of course I did not give them a spelling or grammar test. I was partially kidding about that, but my impression is based on various signs I’ve seen posted in yeshivos throughout the years (as well as many posts and comments on this site). Many are quite embarrassing.
3. I have a secret for you: I’m not modern, I actually spend my mornings in a kollel. Nice try. On the other hand, I have picked up (and read!) a college textbook in my lifetime, so perhaps I can’t consider myself Orthodox…
I hate to say it. A 25 year old girl is damned if she does, damned if she doesnt. If she is 25 and not doing much with herself, she is a shlepper and who wants her. She goes to school and furthers her education, she is overeduacted and nobody wants her. There are only so many kindergarten assistant positions available, OT and PT fields are saturated and many cant find work in the field. What SHOULD they do? Good for them, for furthering their education. If I had a son old enough for a 25 year old girl law school student/graduate, I would set the two of them up.
“It must be conceded that girls going for advanced education do seem to have a more difficult time in shidduchim.”
That is a negative statement regarding frum guys, not the women.
“The truth is often not politically correct these days.”
You think we need to close all the kollels?
“Rashi says that women’s minds are not meant for serious Torah learning. “
And B”H he has been proven wrong.
In any case I’m not aware of any Torah community where women learn no T”S”B”P. And Modern Orthodox communities follow Rov Soloveitchik z’tz’l who *personally* taught gemara to women.
“Rashi says that women’s minds are not meant for serious Torah learning. “
And B”H he has been proven wrong.
One who argues with a Rishon is not an apikores. However, most people think it is a foolish thing to do.
Why did you say this?
Homeowner – I am wondering why you seem to be in such a snit regarding Sac’s status as a lawyer. It really seems to be bothering you. I am quite sure that she is capable of passing the bar exams when she is ready. Relax.
Moq, I know it doesn’t actually connect, but I think part of men think that. I’ve had men say to me “women don’t learn gemara because they are stupid” and quote that. I just roll my eyes and move on.
minyan
Thanks for the support 😉
Maybe the response is exactly what this thread is about, men being intimidated by woman who can stand up to them on an intellectual level… between me and you that isnt what real Men are made of.
“Why did you say this? “
Because today B”H we have many brilliant women who are learned in Torah.
apusheta – I completely agree except I wouldn’t have used that phrase! A girl over 24 not married has to choose the lesser of two evils, usually getting her degree.
Poppa. Do most modern seminaries subscribe to the opinion of rashi as is it is quoted here? (I doubt the veracity of the quote attributed to rashi altogether).
Instead of complaining so much, let us all put our collective minds together and come up with a plan to de-educate these unfortunate girls from their toxic education.
Perhaps this will make a dent in the shidduch crisis for these law grads, and other presently undesirable potential wives.
Minyan, perhaps you know Sacrilege personally; I do not. As an attorney, I am well aware of not only the laws but also the ethical rules under which I am bound. I have a very good record for helping younger members of the profession especially when it comes to their applications for admission to the bar.
Sacrilege, “nearly on pace with me?” “Intimidated?” That’s laughable. I was practicing law before you were born, dear.
Don’t mistake my kindness for an invitation to be impudent.
Now that we have established that you are not an attorney, if you ever intend to become one, be careful of what you write on the internet. Believe it or not, every year the Character Committee in the Second Department sends back applications to people who write that they are currently employed as an “associate.”
If you want to learn something, sit back, be humble instead of a smart alleck, and listen.
If not, carry on and lots of luck to you.
Helpful-
Nice. 🙂
Homeowner
This is what you had a problem with.
“However, not all lawyers want to make partner in a top tier firm. I work in a small to mid-size firm and my main focus is Tax Certiorari. . .”
Any attorney (and many a lay man) worth their weight in salt would have no problem recognizing from the above sentance that I am not an attorney. There is no combination of the words “I” and “attorney” or “lawyer” and no mention of the word “practice”, I dont know about you, but I have never heard of a lawyer say that they “work”.
You say that you have been practicing law before I was born, and for this I respect you. We all have our weak points, maybe carefully going over language is yours…
Kindness… Is that what they are calling it these days?
I’m with homeowner on this one. Sacrilege, your words are unquestionably deceptive and your attitude unacceptable. I’m not a long-time frequenter of the coffee-room, so I don’t know what the culture is here in terms of honesty; people use false names but the CR is part of Yeshiva World News so maybe we should expect some truth.
I think Sacrilege should apologize and ‘fess up. What is your position and education?
Also, I have to answer this:”We all have our weak points, maybe carefully going over language is yours…”
Carefully going over language is ONLY a strong point, especially in law.
netazar (or Homeowner) –
Please QUOTE the EXACT statement of Sacrilege you found misleading.
I see none.
Sac- ignore him (them?).
popa_bar_abba
Member
“Rashi says that women’s minds are not meant for serious Torah learning. “
And B”H he has been proven wrong.
One who argues with a Rishon is not an apikores. However, most people think it is a foolish thing to do.
Why did you say this?
And Rashi’s Daughter who wrote “Rashi” on Nedarim is?
Perhaps this will make a dent in the shidduch crisis for these law grads, and other presently undesirable potential wives.
Helpful,
My wife is currently going to school for a Master’s Degree. How will I know when she has enough education to no longer be desirable as a wife? In other words, how far along does she have to be in her education before I should consider sending her on her way?
The Wolf
gavra: who says that is the case? And even if it is, you have a kasha on that; it doesn’t change halacha.
help for helpful-
“. However, not all lawyers want to make partner in a top tier firm. I work in a small to mid-size firm and my main focus is Tax Certiorari, it is a rare occurrence when I get home after 7.
I also find it interesting that your legal training has spilled over into your every day life. People are usually quite shocked when I tell that what I do, I guess it’s a personality difference. “
“I didnt go into law to open up my own firm. Fine, I want to become a Judge… but thats just because I like the robe ;)”
“Techinically I am not an Esq. since I never took the Bar. Thats my single biggest problem the “what if” what if I move out of NY and then I would have wasted all that time studying for the NY Bar… I think I am what you call a JD equivilent.”
Also note that squeak, moq and popa believed it, as did I.
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