Out Of The Mailbag: (Flatbush Kiddush: Tznius & Drinking Out Of Control)

Just what is sick about being at home? thats your secular negius talking – women are treated like trash in a society that encourages women being out for the whole world to gawk at(and gawk they do), is that what you prefer? you have been brainwashed by secular society to think that anything that makes a difference between the roles of men and women is ‘mysognisitc’ or whatever – aere you some kind of feminist? honestly, get your mind out of american shtusim and think from a torah perspective – I doubt hashem, who said kol kevudah bas melech penima, meant it to mean belitting women cv’s, aderaba, it uplifts the women to a level of kedushah that is inherent in anivus – you have been sayig some interesting ‘chidushim’ for lack of better word, but you dont even know where kol kevudah is found in the torah, and you expect me to agree with your idea that a pasuk in tehillim is meant as a drush only? there are 5 levels fo undderstanding pesukim, known as pardes: pshat, remez, din/drasha, sod – you’re suing what some use as a drasha for ol kevudah as if it were the entire concept – tell me, have you thought this through before calling hashem, cv’s, cv’s, cv’s, cv’s, ‘sick’? he says this in tehillim(writtn with ruach hakodesh), so I think it is you are have a sickness called liberalism – ain odom choteh ele em cain nichnas bo ruach shtus – and this is, my friend, a ruach shtus.

A gut voch.

Matisyahu,

That was a wonderful expose’. I can imagine what your Bar Mitzvah Pshetel was like. You probably ‘knocked their socks off’.

Seriously, you did quite well until you tackled the following issues.

No, I dont think I misunderstood Rav Twersky. The fact is that Hashem is a Baal Rachamim, and it makes perfect sense for us to be able to speak in our defense by pointing out all our mitzvohs and Maasim Toivim in order to lessen our final psak. Did you know that if a person lived his life as a Rosho and is choizer Betshuva on his deathbed, everything is deleted? (Ad Yom MOSO tICHAKEH lo…..)I stand to be correctd, but I think every Jew gets a MAXIMIUM of an hour gehenom, regardless of his deed.

There was a story recently about a secular Jew who was cliniquely dead for some time, they send him back down because he had certain zechusimn, now he became abaal teshuva. Here is the link:http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7332930594849349840&hl=en

Your right, as I mentioned before, my reaction was a bit harsh. But please dont play ‘physcologist’ and tell me that I’m a feminist. What I meant to say is that a woman can be soiche to do mitzvohs OUTSIDE, AND be an Akeres Habayis. Assuming other wise would border on the ‘American Shtus’ of Male chauvenism. Pleae dont let yourself be brainwashed by secular society and understand that women have mitzvohs that might require them to be outdoors, and YES , after my time, I plan to excuse myself for being ‘oiver’ on Kol Kevudah…(in the literal sense) very confidently. May no JEW every transgress anything worst.

Gut Voch to you,

Think what would happen if women stayed in the house:

1)Children would be raised by their mothers instead of babysitters

2)Men would have to go to work and just learn in their spare time as most did a generation ago.

Maybe this would take care of some of the “children at risk”

Seriously, if you want to take care of the tzniyus and the drinking problem, try teaching hashgafa in schools. These issues all stem from not feeling conected to Hashem, our loving Father.

BTW, why are most of the men here busy with yelling about the women and not really touching the MEN who drink too much? Hmmmm. Interesting

Nameless – I fear you have made some more mistakes, gehinnom is at most, a year, unless you did one of the things you dont get out of gehinnom for(even then it’s not eternal, just very long), this is why we say kaddish for 11 months, to be dan lechaf zchus that it wasnt a year, since only a very bad person would get a year, so we do it for 11 instead of 12.

Because hashem is a baal rachamaim he punishes us. This is because gehinnom is a chessed, it’s a way of purifying is for gan eden – this is where we enjoy our maysim tovim and mitzvos, however, as I said before, the reward for mitzvos is 500 times greater than the punishment for aveiros, so it would not be fair to have them cancel out aveiros – it would mean less reward for you.

Also, teshuvah erases mistakes while you are still alive – not after you’re dead, so the idea of erasing misdeeds works even when there is a moment left to life. Once you’re standing for a judgment though, there is no teshuvah – otherwise, no one would go to hell at all, plus, the purpose of life is action, oth good and bad, changing the self – olam haba is stagnant, it has nothing to do with growth, it is what you make it, literally.

Now, I cannot say kol kevudah(the pushut pshat) is a lav, but it is halacha, and is used in halacha all throughout shas and poskim.

I do not remember which mussar sefer disucsses your misconception about din vecheshbon, but I am sure I have seen it addressed as a misconception, i think it was the nefesh hachaim, but i honestly do not remember now.

The story of that baal teshuvah was said over at the shabbos table – it’s a touching, beautiful mayshoh, but I do not what relevance it has to what we were discussing – that man came back, and hence, he did teshuvah, but he would not have been able to do that if he stayed there, as he said himself, all the malachim he made with his averos were there, and once you’re in beis din, there’s no teshuvah anymore – thats only something you can do here, and here, he did it, thank G-d.

My opinion is that you try to be makayam kol kevudah whenever possible – meaning, for instance, if you have to buy something, and you’re able to buy it online instead of going to a store, that would be preferable – regarding taking care of children, that’s a separate issue and when a woman does that she is(hopefully) doing a mitzvah of chinuch. Kol kevudah does not mean it’s assur to go outside, it means that women should stay inside as much as possible, and this is how chazal use it in many places in the gemora, as a general rule, that women stay inside, they then quote this pasuk as precedent for whatever ruling they are talking about.

Bekitzur, it’s a wonderful thing to do whenever possible. However the poster’s opinion that it is ‘sick’ is absurd and am haratzus, to say the least, as it is mentioned in most facets of torah(gemora, mishnayos, meforshim, halacha seforim) – this is why women should not learn gemora, the proof is just by reading what this poster wrote – it was filled with misinformation and am haratzus, and I am very surprised at the elementary hashkafic and halachic errors, as these are things that most women know.

Matisyohu28

you really think its better for a woman to shop online than to go to a store????

All the rabbonim have spoken out against going online for non-business purposes. and you’re saying that lechatchila its preferable to do that??

and yes, I know I shouldn’t be on YWN either because its not business related, but I admit that its my own shortcoming. I admit I shouldn’t be here. But that’s very different than saying its the lechatchila thing to do.

nameless – it sounded like you were saying that the whole idea of women being inside was sick – doing mitzvos outside when necessary is one thing, but it sounded like you were speaking of the whole concept, which is why I responded the way I did.

Also, i dont see how there was gayva in saying that the idea you mentioned is spoken about in mussar seforim as an example of an error – being choshed kesherim is when you know that kesherim are saying something and you are choshid them – here, i have no reason to believe rabbi twerski said anything you were talking about, so I am being choshed your report on what he said, since it flies in the face of chazal – big difference.

also, i wasnt really thinking about other ways of doing things when I wrote about shopping online, it was just an example – in retrospect, you’re right, it was not an advisable thing to do, but I meant that kol kevudah should be kept whenever possible, and thawas just an example of the idea – so I’ll rephrase that by saying that shopping over the phone would be preferable

gevalt..hatzolah too!? I hope to g-d this was an isolated case – a geshmake shabbos is one thing, but when you have one’s life in your hands, thats sakanas nefashos, both of the driver, the people on the road, and the person he’s coming to help

Many months ago, I posted on YWN regarding tznius. I posted with the best of intentions. However, in the process of making my point I made a very grave error. I was lax with the honor that is due a gadol batorah. I commented about a sefer that was written with yiras shamayim to be mezakeh es harabim. It is a terrible, terrible sin to disparage a Talmid Chochom, and even more so to cause others to do so. Since I am known by a screen name on this website, I would like to apologize to the author of the sefer in this forum, where I publicly made this grave error. May it be H-shem’s will, that no further harm should come as a result of my mistake.

In the zechus of the efforts of the many people who are trying so hard to restore kedusha to klal yisroel, may we be zoche to merit teshuva shelaima, and the resulting geulah.

On your very first coffee room post in the beginning of this thread you seem dismissive that a drinking problem exists.

What a difference seven and a half years makes. Has it worsened?

There will not be a Klal Yisroel in 20 years.

Well, it’s been 7 years since this prediction, and I think we’re doing ok.

After rereading this thread-

who says that the pashut pshat of “kol kvuda bas melech pnima” is that women have to stay indoors any more than it has to do with middos? The “poshut pshat” is “all of the honor of the daughter of the king is within.” Within what? What kind of honor? If my dad works in an office and doesn’t rule anywhere, does it still apply? 😛 The “staying indoors” explanation is just as pshat as the middos and inner glory explanation, really.

(And it’s tehillim. It would be an interesting world if we paskened from tehillim.)

Essentially, while tznius is a wonderful thing, the amount of hateful invective on this thread was actually scary to read.

And yes, I think the drinking is a huge issue as well.

Agree with DY, we are going in the direction that was predicted. We are quickly finding ourselves needing to write off more and more people in order to preserve kedusha. We are becoming more and more fractured and extremist across the spectrum. I do not think we are doing OK.

That doesn’t make that explanation more pshat than the other one. That’s not how pshat works. (See Rashbam.)

Anyway, that would be more of an asmachta than an actual prooftext, no?

I find myself reading through these older posts and I come to the conclusion, surprisingly, that many of the more “conservative” opinions here are right (as regards tzniusdik dress and activity and alcohol consumption at kiddush).

Someone who is brought up with seychel and derech eretz will be taught to dress modestly and appropriately in shul, regardless of denomination. It all starts and ends in the home, so a parent will and should model this kind of dress and behaviour. Now, I don’t think either of the two letters in the OP were complaining about sleeves to the elbow and skirts to the knee. It seems a lot more than that was displayed. It seems that much more immodest dress and behaviour was described. There’s no place for this in anyone’s shul, or for that matter any place of worship.

I’ve also seen the growth of the drinking phenomenon, though I haven’t personally encountered much of it with the youth. And the immodesty of drinking can sometimes be of a gaaivadik variety – oh, I brought a $200 bottle of single malt…Oh, I brought a $300 bottle of vodka…etc. That is as untzniusdik as a low neckline on a dress, or worse, because it incorporates pride, greed and gluttony along with immodesty.

Our shuls are places of holiness, learning, and Jewish unity. If that is recognized by secheldik people, they won’t come dressed immodestly, and they won’t come to drink themselves silly.

I’d make a couple of exceptions and comments, though. First, often enough there are those who do not have the upbringing to know what is appropriate, and are wearing what to them might have seemed the most appropriate. If these are one-offs, there for a simcha, it is the responsibility of the baal simcha to try to educate them on expectations in a place of sanctity.

If the individual is in shul for the first or a rare time, it can be a teaching and learning opportunity even if they aren’t dressed appropriately. As hard as it might be, such an individual should be treated with respect and kindness. That way they may come back, and they would likely emulate the dress of those who go frequently.

Finally, where I vehemently do not agree is with the focus on women and their tzniyus responsibility, while indicating that the only male tzniyus responsibility is to keep his women caged at home. Each of us, man and woman has a responsibility to live a Torah life in the world, meeting the challenges of tzniyus and all other challenges with the education, mussar, and guidance of our parents, teachers, and those who we take as our leaders. We should all turn inwards to protect the vitality of our homes and our families and their holiness, at the appropriate times, in the appropriate ways. And in that, as in so many other ways, our mothers, sisters, wives and daughters can show us the derech.

<There will not be a Klal Yisroel in 20 years.>

well, 10 years later were still going strong.
Mi Kiamcha Yisroel

Taking this same theme to the (somewhat) newer fad of BBQ events for a wide variety of good causes, it seems to be spiraling out of control. Scotch and whiskey tasting, hand rolled cigars, multiple varieties of smoked meats etc. readily available for those who want to support any one of a number of good causes.

I have been to exactly one such event and while the cause was a worthwhile one, the behavior and atmosphere is not one I can agree with.

I guess this is where we are headed. The slope is very steep and long.

Meno, at least there’s one thing we found that an ish emes can agree with RY23 about!

RY: That link was live in 2008 when this thread started. Many pages get deleted after 9 years .