Out Of The Mailbag: (Flatbush Kiddush: Tznius & Drinking Out Of Control)

Maybe alle heimeshe yidden should go to the clothing stores with their vieber!!

maybe the stores will be open by appointment only.

besalel, great points. just to add to it, even following the rules, means following the rules. covering the kness and elbows includes in any normal position — walking, driving, getting into a car, going up stairs, windy day, bending, etc. so the length must be long enough to cover all such positions, not “just enough” to work when the person is standing like a statue.

besalel, is driving a hummer/ escalade considered immodest only for women or for men as well? If this is acceptable for men only, please explain why, and clarify which vehicles are considered immodest for men/ women to drive.

The tznius issue in the bungalow colonies and developments in the Catskills dwarfs the tznius problem is the City. I was in a heimeshe bungalow colony where the men were rating the women as they walked by. I was invited to a barbeque where copules were fixated on discussing the infidelities of other couples.

willi – I happen to know firsthand that there were two separate writers; I know one of them myself, and he didn’t write the other one.

I wasn’t going to reply to yoshi figuring: why bother. I changed my mind after seeing a few supporting posts) your assumption that I go to grocery stores, drive my car, go to simchas, walk down the street (or wherever you may find me) is to ogle women is baseless.

What I wrote in my post is what my wife and I tell our teen and pre-teen girls (a little practical advice and chinuch in tzinus):

1) don’t stretch and/or bend down in front of men (in a store or anywhere)

2) be careful in how you sit and how you rise (in a restaurant, from a car or even at home)

and… you should be careful to wear proper attire so that if you do need to reach for something or stand up (of whatever) you maintain a proper level of tzinus

…and let’s not forget, besides the Yidden that are shopping in the stores, there are also a whole cast of characters from parts unknown (south of the border) that look at our wives and daughters.

Just to add this in… I spent Shabbos in a more “modern” frum community near Flatbush who considered themselves modern orthodox. The family I was spending Shabbos with had three teenaged daughters, and they and their mothers shocked me in the outfits they wore to shul. One daughter had on a skirt that came below her knees, but was completely see-through from top to bottom. I’m not talking about only if you look close or in certain lights, I mean see-through, the way plastic is see-through! The fabric was like a sheer curtain. I could see EVERYTHING through that “skirt” clear as day. None of them were tznius, including the mother, but this one particular daughter!! How could they intentionally wear such things? To shul even! How could she walk down the street like that? I was so embarrassed…

Bas Torah – I just hope you thanked these people for inviting you into their home before complaining about them on a public forum…

I posted this in the other thread about tznius, but in my humble opinion it is important for people to see this so I am posting here again:

I think the problem is that the direct approach doesn’t work. I think the frum community needs to look at the psychological motivations behind these behaviors and go after it that way. These people know the halachos from their bais yaakov days. Simply repeating them just makes people want to do them less (people have a tendency to rebel against restrictions that they feel are “forced” on them). It is important to stress self-esteem and self-confidence in women – this is primarily the job of parents, but also the husbands. The women need to understand that they are respected no matter what they wear and if those close to them are able to express that, then we can start heading in the right direction. The next step beyond this is shidduchim and the pressure parents place on their daughters to look a certain way, otherwise they can’t get a shidduch, so how do you think that makes them feel about their essential self, beyond the outward appearance. We have psychologists in the frum community who have studied these points and the rabbonim need to speak with them and work with their kehillos on an individual and general basis to bring home the importance of these points. These messages may be more important than the direct mussar about learning torah, keeping tznius and drinking. These psychological concepts are fundamental to creating people who are shomrei torah on the inside, and don’t just do mitzvos from from community pressure.

We need to dig deep down to the underlying issues and not just see things at the surface as I think many of the comments here suggest.

ATTENTION MY FELLOW B’NEI TORAH,

As a woman reading these letters and skimming through these comments , I cant resist but speak in our defense;

YES, tznius is very importand and it is the crown and glory of every Jew. However, did any of you men realize what a nisoyon this is for us? Do you know what it means to walk the streets in 90 degrees following the basic tzinius code, smeltering away in a sheitel(even if its a nice one), long sleeves etc? Stop hacking abnout the styles for heaven’s sakes.

The Torah says ‘Vchai Bohem’ we dont have to make our lives more difficult. Ofcourse a man cant fathom what its all about because they can comfortabley roll up their sleeves, walking around in short pants during vacation time is not the end of the world and their is no complete head covering which can give you terrible migraines in the heat.

Mi keamcho BNOS YISROEL??

Furthermore, what right do men have to inspect other women to the point where they realize there is a tznius problem?? Focus your attention on where its proper for you and try to understand that MOST FRUM WOMEN TRY THEIR BEST!!

As important as Tznius is, it is NOT one of the three Amudim, thousands of women dressed in the most modest manner didnt stop the Bais Hamikdosh from burning!!!

Why are people not critical about the lack of Ahavas Chinom? We are in the three weeks now, please lets concentrate on basic derech eretz.

There was an incident recently at a shtiebel which really shocked me.

A little boy ran out in the yard to play during ‘laining’ on Shabbos. Meanwhile , an elderly man noticed his seat was free and went to sit down. When the child came back and noticed that his seat was taken, he told the man that he was sitting in HIS seat. A minute later, the father of this little boy passed by and said’ Yes, reb yid, this is my boy’s seat, please find somewhere else to sit’

In my humble opinion, the lack of chinuch is a MAJOR issue people dont pay enough attention to. Lets put our priorities in order…

nameless, tsuz shver tsu zain ah yid. Yes, its hard to be a Jew. But one must persevere and succeed nevertheless.

to letter writer..you say “the rabbonim, the rabonnim” what is this, the rabbonim are your baby stitters? if some thing is very wrong b’rochnious YOU have to get up there and be moiche, not go crying to RABBONIM, since when are the RABBONIM baby sitters? the rabbonim are to pasken sheilos and not run after ADULTS with a stick to make sure you keep them! also from our experience of years of going to summer resort, such behavior are usually accompanied with plenty grobe avairos so what are you doing in such place to begin with? “hayechate ish b’gecholim v’raglov lo tikuvenu?”..so you should FLY out of such place…. the way you decribe how the girls and their mothers go dressed, to say its not a mokom torah is an understatement no matter how many dafi-yomi or other sheurim is given there…so as es brent a fire loift men…you dont scream “RABBONIM, RABBONIM”

to letter writer #2 you say there will not be a klall yisroel in 20 years…there will be yidden untill mosiach comes “ki lo sishokach m’pi zaro” there are b’h 100,s of thousands ,and going, ehrliche yidden, ehrliche temmimudike vos fun zei vet zeich tzien de goldene kite vaiter. But you who dont want “talibanization” afre lpima (eh ,cantor,pahetu yid, etc,?) (You used the term not us)so all the chumres and gedorim that the tanoim, amoroim, geonim, of all generation instituted, which prserves klall yisroel, and your crowd machen avek “extreme, taliban,not in this day and age, amish, stone age,etc, etc, those take have the chashash of yours (in 20 years…). and that was the end result of all movements thruout the generations (christianity, karaim, haskala reform consrevstive reconstructonists, humanist, v’abizraihu.{yes cantor, ilini07, rabbiof berlin etc} you start peeling off those layers bit by bit and your left without yiddishkeit..and thats what “secular studies’ got(cantoresq’s got) hot oichet tzugeholfen

so namele, do tell us how YOU do it. If you don’t dress like Reb Arele’s Chasidim, what do YOU do??

namele, How trendy?

Qwerty- why don’t you live and let live?

This happened at 2 kiddushim. This makes a crisis??

Judaism isn’t a way of life where things work in such linear fashion: break rule – you are bad – scream @ you not to break rule or keep rule – you are good.

So, letter writers, look at this in 360 degrees. First and foremost, who says we can extrapolate two kiddushim to all women in all circumstances? We can’t, so whoa, boy. Tone down the rhetoric – rabbanim “screaming”? “Many” of us are afflicted with this? No klal yisrael? “Drunken animals”? Please.

Second, you letter writers out there and all who agree and condone the rhetoric – let’s stop judging. You see some women dressed not quite as they should. They are “pruste chayos”? They are the reasons for there being “no klal yisrael in 20 years”? Their conduct is so hideous so as to “make us sick”?

Let me ask you – do you know these ladies? Are you sure that they have no redeeming qualities vis a vis yahadus at all so as to label them “pruste chayos” and demand a rabbinic “screaming”? Those are strong words – think before you use them. Do you know what supreme acts of tzedaka and chessed they may have done? Do you know how each of these “pruste chayos” treats her fellow Jew? Do you know the strength of their prayers, the struggles each deal with? I really don’t think so.

Let me tell you a story of a lady I know, one that should you see her, letter writers, you might deem to be a borderline “pruste chaya”. I know of a situation where a person with a family desperately needed a certain item, a very, very expensive item, without which wouldn’t have been life threatening but would’ve afflicted this person with terrible embarrassment and sent this family no end of shalom bayis problems for years. This person heard that this lady (who some would deem a pretty much “pruste chaya” should they just simply glance had such an item for sale and purchased) had such an item for sale, so they bought it. Came time to pay a week later. The lady told the fellow that B”H she didn’t REALLY need the money now; the person needed the item more, so why don’t they just pay a nominal sum, say the small cost of what she incurred advertising the item, and leave it at that? I don’t think she wrote this off to ma’aser either, folks.

Is she a “pruste chaya”, my friend? Is she so terrible and evil that the likes of her will cause klal yisroel to vanish? Do we need screaming sermons railing against the behavior of such women? I have the utmost respect for such a lady. Do you?

Think before you spew such invective. Learn that the R’ Shlomo Carlebach message of ahavas klal yisrael and being non-judgemental as the forefront of yahadus in galus aren’t just quaint and cute musings that dance at the fringe of yahadus, OK?

Knee jerk reactions, “kol koreh”s, sizing up a person in 2 seconds; these are all easy, all cop outs in and of themselves. Learning to love one another and to accept and judge are much harder, but oh, so worth the effort. Because THAT is what HKBH wants of His children.

Did HKBH give us the Torah and powers of tochahcha to be so self-righteous?

jent1150-

“Also, you say men go with short pants,also nit klug geret…those men who wear short pants usually their wives wear pants ,also shott ones and sleeveless so whats your complaint…”

How dare you generalize like that!! Nameless, I agree with you one hundred percent. We men have no idea what it’s like; it’s easy for us to criticize when we don’t have the same level of obligation as do women. How DARE us men presume to criticize when we cannot understand or say that this part of yahadus is more important than that.

And proudjew – “Give me a break, Why can n=men (sic) dress in the hottest days with suits & hats, Torah is Torah. (sic) & not only when its nice & cool outside.” How dare you equate that with adhering to tznius – since when do men HAVE to do this??

nameless – ok, so does that mean we should forget about shabbos too? or when we try to be mechanech our children, we would ONLY follow the amudim????? nonsense.

we should emphasize our efforts based on..the bais hamikdash? where is that yesod found, anywhere, or just in your negius?

To be mazber your kasha, since that is all it was, even though you stated it as if you’re a rishon or something, every dor has its nisyonos – the era of the bayis rishon, had avodah zara that we cannot fathom today(anshei knesses hagedolah were mevatel the yatzer hora for avodah zara that was so hard back then, now it’s normal level), not to mention sinos chinum and the rest of the causes of the churban – however, the causes of other calamities, as documented in the rishonim and achronim, were all different – why? each dor has its nisayon. Our nisyonos today are tznius, secularism, pritzus, assimilation, taiva, money, and others – however the fact that a previous generation had a difficulty in one area hs no reflection on its importance of reinforcement in a different tekufah.

It’s hot. the women need to live with it and understand that their momentary discomfort is not the important thing here – sephardim had it much hotter in the middle east, and they didnt complain, they followed the ratzon hashem..heat was not even a factor in their deciding what to wear, or if it was, it had no reflection on tznius – and you’re going to compare that to our current state? It’s hot – so that means a ‘frum’ woman can become a walking micshol, causing avieros that are tantamount to the murder of one’s children, breakin shalom bayis, causing hirhurm – need I say more? kavannah to be immodest is not the whole of the inyan – the end result is immodesty, whether or not the woman wants to be a prutzah or not – if it looks like a prutzah, in this case, it is.

when a person comes up to bais din shel mayla, all the excuses fade. this is one of them – no one ever died of dressing modest, and women have no reason to be outside all day anyway; kol kevudah bas melech penima.

Matisyohu28, are you sure its not MATISYAHU82AND GETTING SENILE,,,?????

Reread my post! I never implied that other Mitzvos are unimportant Chas Visholom, all I am saying is that when it comes to tznius where women are concerned, men tend to forget ‘LEFUM TZAARAH AGRA! The harder the mitzvah, the bigger the schar,,,So dont take us for granted please,

Oh and you say:

and women have no reason to be outside all day anyway,,,,,

SICK, Sick Sick!!!

For the record, I am out a lot, driving people to hospitals, visiting old age homes and

very often taking people who cant afford a txi to airports, ,,,,,,,

intresting idea myers. let me know when you open up. You coudl probly find a roshet kollel righ there on ywn. serioulsy I think you have a point women lack inspritation and hashkafa. They need it. with it out there lives begin to get empty and .. . . . .

nameless:

I’m sure you will! But you were wrong to call the idea that a woman belongs in the home as “sick, SICK, sick.”

At least according to the Mechaber.

There’s one aspect to this thread about Tznius that hasn’t been mentioned that I feel needs to be said: The mitzvah of Tznius isn’t all about women needing to be “covered up” to protect the men from michshol and hirhur, though it may be part of it. A broader view of it is that women are by their very essense “pnimius”. (See Rav Shimshon Pincus’s sefarim on this (and many others) that talk about the woman being compared to the moon, and the man to a sun. The man is the giver, more external etc., the woman is internal and the receiever. This is true in many aspects of their relationship.)

The mitzvah of tznius defines a woman and is her very essense. That’s why even if a girl is in a place where their are no men (eg, a girls camp or school), or even on a deserted island, she would still need to maintain her tznius. Its for HER.

For people to take the concept of tznius and say that its function is only to protect the men is reducing it into something very shallow.

Tznius allows for us to focus on her inside, which is her neshoma instead of on her guf. “A girl should be attractive, but not attracting.” See Gila Manolson’s excellent book on tznius called Outside/Inside. It is a must read for any girl or woman who wants a deeper understanding of what tznius means, or for any man who thinks that tznius is put on women to protect His thoughts.

Also, I hate to break it to you guys but a woman who has issues with the tznius dress code is NOT going to be very moved by being told that she is “causing men to have bad thoughts”. But if you explain to her that by calling attention to her body she is basically saying, “that’s all I am , a body! Not a mind, not a neshomah” she may just realize she is reducing herself, and choose to show some more self-respect.

If a woman would apply for a job as an attorney or CPA looking like a bimbo (excuse the word), the interviewer would say,”what are you trying to do by calling attention to your body when applying for a job that requires brains? That makes no sense!”

One final anecdote: In “Holy Woman” by Sara Y. Rigler she relates a story about the Tzaddik, the husband of the “Holy Woman”, Chaya Sara Kramer. He was once fundraising abroad, and stayed in the home of a wealthy man who had a cleaning lady that wasn’t properly dressed. The attendant motioned to Rabbi Kramer that he should strongly protest this.

Rabbi Kramer (who by the way was a Satmar Chassid) answered, “Kukt Men Nisht!” (You don’t have to look!)

I am certainly not advocating that we turn a blind eye to a growing problem that our community has, but the job of men is simply not to look! (and of course, each man should make sure he isn’t pressuring his wife to dress improperly, which is sometimes the case.)

I find an interEsteing phenomenon in these coffee rooms: the men seem very eager to blame the women and comment on the “women’s issues”, but you dont have it in the reverse! I agree with the poster who said that the Choshuva women in every community should address the issue for the women, and not the men. (with the exception of the Gedolim, who give us much chizuk) Wouldn’t it be funny if women started lecturing men on coming to shul on time, not doing bitul Torah or not shaving with a shaver?! Pretty disconcerting to think about, huh?

Now are you…..

So ‘Kol Kevudah……’ DOESNT apply in the figurative sense at all,,??? A woman’s middos are not relevant to this AT ALL? It ONLY means that a woman should not spend too much time outdoors????

Verify that please…..

NOW,,,,

Its not a Posuk, its a Chazal!

Whatever the case, please tell means in the figurative sense and be kind enough to verify it,,,,