Out Of The Mailbag: (Do As I Do)

you are certainly correct

nevertheless, this is an internet forum

there is a certain psychological milieu unique to this very poor and dangerous form of communication. certain accepted modes of behavior that become almost mandatory for posters.

if you want to have a forum or comments section, the best you will be able to do is delete the most offensive posts (and or posters, ie dovdov). you will not be able to turn an internet forum into a group of people around the dinner table.

one other point

sometimes anti-Torah attitudes must be addressed, sometimes in a strong manner, not necessarily to change anyone but because we are Jews, and Sheker must not be allowed to raise it’s head and speak, without being answered by Emes. even if it DOES create an uproar

You think that by DICTATING this letter you are goint to get people to change? if you are really concerned about people dictating what others should do, YOU should not dictate to them what to do, and they will learn from you. DO NOT CREATE AN UPROAR over nothing.

Writer,

True screaming and the like will not accomplish anything. But if someone witnesses or is aware of another Yid doing an aveira, be it tzinius, be it kashrus, or be it chillul shabbos, he has a halachic obligation to inform the violator that they are sinning and should stop. (The only exception would be if the witness knows with 100% certainty that the aveira-doer will refuse to heed his words.)

I would like to suggest that this issue relates to Rav Dessler zt”l’s idea of nekudas habechira. The way I understand it, he recognizes that we are not malachim nor are we able to jump to be malachim. We are taking steps on the ladder that is “rosho magia hashaima”. Therefore, just because someone sees an individual not doing something properly, or even a significant portion of the community not doing something, correcting them on a communal level may not be helpful and may just embarrass the person or make things worse. Since everyone is on a different level and has a different point at which he or she makes a choice to be makpid on something or not or to keep a particular mitzva, rebuke and improvement must be undertaken by a person at that person’s level – as long as one is continuing to try to improve, that is what is expected. In my view – people need an individual like a rav who can understand them and where they stand and direct them accordingly as to how they can improve themselves individually and what is appropriate.

Feivel,

I can double check, but I do believe what I said is correct.

If you get a chance to check first, drop a comment.

Ah dank

I agree with the letter writer. It works on many levels. If your manner of dress identifies you as a frum Jew, ( whether it be a black hat or a kipah sruga ) you always have to be concious of your behaviour and actions as you can never know how a positive action could lead someone to become closer to Hashem or, how a negative action could push someone away. How one speaks and acts has a greater impact than what one says.

I dissagree with the letter writer, here are a few points:

One of my Roshei Yeshivos just finished giving a shmooze about bochurim coming on time to davening, and I asked him that the vast majority of the bochurim come on time, and the minority that doesn’t won’t start any time soon (this was when I was older, not a young high schooler afraid of getting yelled at), so why bother? He told me that when something is wrong, it is bad for our ruchnius to stand by and let it go. By being passive to other’s improper behavior, we are letting ourselves get affected by it. Therefore, he concluded, he wasn’t giving the shmooze just so the bochurim would change the way they act, but rather for himself; so such improper behavior shouldn’t be something that he got used to and tolerated.

Also, I think the letter writer is fundamentally wrong about people not listening when they are criticized or getting yelled at. Firstly, on an internet forum it is easier to see that actions are attacked and not people- you know that a criticism is not aimed at you personally, because no one knows who you are. Further more, some people benefit by having something pointed out to them. If they are not defensive, they may see something as something they overlooked and didn’t realize. I know this may be a minority, but it still serves a good purpose for someone who wants to improve something that he/she wasn’t aware of previously. Most of us mature adults can see the validity of the points people make regardless of their tone, or CAPS.

Finally, to decry Kol Kories and the sort is decrying the Gedolim who sign them. I acknowledge that there are impostors, who somehow get non sanctioned signatures to appear on their own personal vendetta posters, but the attitude of the letter writer seems to be that everyone should just act their best, and it’s no one’s right to tell others what to do. We are submissive to our Gedolim, and if they indeed “tell us what to do”, or actually sign a Kol Korie with a directive that may be a change to our personal behavior, then you either acknowledge your submissiveness, or you truly think you know better, which I believe is a sad predicament.

Feivel,

Are you saying there is a difference between a Taryag mitzva meforesh in the chumash and one that isn’t?

Perhaps you can elaborate on the difference, if so.

josef

yes

there is a difference. the difference is that different Halochos of Tochachah apply. I dont know why, but it is pusht that that is the case. i am not aware of any other differences.

long answer: yosef you probably dont need this, but if anyone else is interested:

for example

Tefillin is explicitly mentioned in the Chumash as an Asay.

not to embarrass a fellow Yid in public is also a D’Oraisa, but it is not mentioned explicitly as a Lav. it was derived as a D’Oroisa from Psukim by Chazal

a D’Oraisa mitzvah that is meforesh has exactly the same level of stringency as one not meforesh. The only difference that i am aware of is that different Halochos of giving Tochacha apply. There could be other differences that i am not aware of but they are both absolutely equal as far as Chashivus, stringency, etc.

josef

Tochachah is i believe a D’Oraisah.

the Halochos of giving Tochachah are D’Rabbonim

i would SPECULATE that at the time the gzairos were promulgated, the general populace was only familiar with the Torah b’ Csav, there were many periods in our history that this was the case.

Therefore it would make sense to institute that for a meforishah mitzvah, Tochachah should be given regardless of whether or not one would listen. Those Mitzvahs that were derived by Chazal, however, would be less known and therefore Tochachah should only be given if there was a reasonable chance they would believe and listen to you.

The problem with giving mussar has always been (at least in my own mind) the fact that some of that mussar is built on chumrah and not on the actual halacha. I would not want to get mussar on tznius vis a vis my hair covering (I cover it with a sheital, a hat, a snood, or the like), from someone who believes that it is untzniusdig to wear ONLY a sheital without a small hat (to make it obvious that the sheital is false hair), or that my non-seamed stockings are immodest. What you think is immodest may not be congruent to what another frum yid holds as immodest, and the other person’s hashkafa may be halachically sound. I doubt that our Emahos grappled with the legwear problem, as the fashion of their times in the desert most likely did not include the wearing of stockings at all. If someone has a makor that implies otherwise, I sincerely would like to know of it (I am not being facetious), as this is a question I have long had regarding proper dress in the summertime.

The problem is that the people who really need the chizuk usually dont attend those events anyway.

I think it’s important that people closely examine their motivations for telling other people what to do. If one is feeling superior or better than the person he is considering remonstrating with, this will come through in the tochacha & it will almost certainly not be well received. Also one should try to put himself in the other’s place & consider how he’d feel if he were on the receiving end. If he would feel offended, he probably shouldn’t give that tochacha.

I understand that doing this requires a lot of self-awareness & empathy, but I think it’s essential.

Dear Oomis,

Michal gave dovid very strong tochacha for uncovering his ANKLES and the only reason she was wrong is because he was doing it for kavod shomayim. If thats how dispicable it was then, you can rest assured that his great-grandmother wasn’t walking around with bare calves even if it meant she wasn’t going to be the most comfortable person in the world. I’m sure she found away to cover herself without stockings (maybe she used fig leaves). If you want to sacrifice olam haba for comfort, thats your own business, BUT DON’T YOU EVER EVER BE MOTZEE SHEM RAH ON MY GREAT-GRANDMOTHER LIKE THAT!!

to working man..we have yet to come accros a ehrliche yid use the term “holier than thou” it seeped into your vocabulary from the goishe gass, so please you really had me “scared” with such strong psak, “un-migitated chutzpah”. and yes there is such a thing as holier than the next person. isnt a big tzaddik bigger madreigeh than the one less than him (and of course a real tzaddik considers himself the lowest ..)and so on so what kind of cliche’ is this? so pipe down…

working man..let us answer your “intellligent..”. we went to ysehivah, the size is irrelevant, they provided with something, its called toireh with yiras shomayin etc,(not that we meet those qualifications as you meet your “secular education”qualif.) as opposed to your big yeshivah that provided you with something called secular education (whats that, never heard of it)besides that, they also taught us to write complete sentences (which we are not particular to use), which is completely unimportant to be a ehrlicha yid but only important to conduct business with your fellow countrymen,.again, yes we hard the term “holier than thou,” have secular education too (dont need it to have heard it, so dont know why you say have secular ed ,to hear the “term holier than thou”,but we mentioned that never heard it used by bnei toireh ,lakewood, belz, telz, biyon,satmar etc.. you take solace to know we’re ehrlicher yid is irrelevant to this discussion …if you dont mind can you explain how derech eretz kadma l’torah comes in here? ..we think you should put your “secular education” aside and learn some anoveh(eikev anoveh, yiesh..see mesilas yeshorim)

“oomis – Proper tzinius dress in the summertime is the same as in the wintertime. Additionally, I think you can be very confident that our Emahos covered their legs.”

I never said they didn’t cover their legs (kindly re-read what I wrote). They apparently wore long robes or dresses to the ground(as was the style in that region of the world for most women) which do cover the legs entirely. That does not mean however, that they wore STOCKINGS or even socks. And to respond to the comment made by Head in the Sand, Michal dared to give Tochacha to THE KING (she was out of line to do so) out of the misguided concern that he was belittling the malchus. From all I have been taught in Yeshivah, she erred. And she was punished for not showing proper kovod hamelech. And I would never dream of being motzi shem ra on anyone, much less your great-grandmother! It is not for you to decide if I gave up my Olam Haba for comfort. If so chas v’sholom, I will be in very good company with some very choshuvah women, rebbetzins, baalos chesed, and oskei tzorchei tzibur, who like me do not wear socks in the heat, though we cover up otherwise. As to the grape leaves remark – please remember that Ha-Shem’s concept of human tznius originally entailed the wearing of NO clothing. The unclothed body is not inherently untzniusdig. It was the AVEIRA of Chava and Odom that changed those dynamics forever.

Instead of trying to prove to me how choshuv it is for ankles to be covered up, why can we not agree that there is a machlokess on this very subject, the Chazon Ish was machmir in his views, and the Mishnah Berurah does not necessarily agree with his sevara. I am not arguing with you, because I respect your right to follow that derech. I follow a different Rov’s opinion and ailu v’ailu divrei Elokim Chayim.

I have total respect for any woman (AND MAN) who dress b’tznius, as they understand the concept and as their rabbonim teach them. The danger lies in your deciding that your understanding or your rebbe’s/yeshivah’s understanding is the ONLY correct view, and therefore anyone who does not adhere to that view is not “frum enough.” There are people who have committed terrible chilulei Ha-Shem in their zealous attempt to bend the world to their religious observance. I am just saying that there are shivim panim l’Torah, and maybe someone else’s view is as valid as yours, though you probably do not see it that way.

Just a note, an aquaintence of mine recieved a psak form R’ Moshe Feinstien (you’ve all heard of him I’m sure) about socks for women. He said that as long as her knees were covered, even when she sat, she could wear ankle socks. Knee-his, thigh-his or full stockings were not nessasary. So, if an over zealous person were to have gone over to her to give her tochacha for her untzniyus, who would be right? Also, how many of you would listen if someone felt, in no uncertain terms, that your car was too flashy and inappropriate for a frum Jew? Would you run out and buy a more “Yeshivish” car?

While we are on the topic, how come when I got married, over 25 years ago, EVERY woman wore pastels and other bright colors? Any one wearing black was considered not dressed properly. This went for all weddings, Yeshivish, Chasidish etc. Are we truly better now? I don’t think so.

jent1150

I (mir) for one, really enjoy your comments and “chap hano’ah” how you answer those that need to be answered. But often, I cannot follow what you’re saying because of unfinished sentenses. It would be helpful if you take an extra minute or two to review your post to see if it is legible. we would all gain from your words more.

Thank you

jent, just wondering…do the ehrleche yiddin such as yourself believe in Pirkei Avot…like “hevei dan lchaf zchut?” or “al tistakel bakankan elah bmah sheyeish bo?”…or “hevei kabeil et kol adam bsever panim yafot?” or “al tadin et chaveircha ad shetagiah limkomo? or …just wondering?

I’d be glad to since I would truly love to be dan you l’chaf zchut, but am having a hard time doing so.

hevei kabeil et kol adam bsever panim yafot and Hevei dan lchaf zchut.

“we went to ysehivah, the size is irrelevant, they provided with something, its called toireh with yiras shomayin etc,(not that we meet those qualifications as you meet your “secular education”qualif.) as opposed to your big yeshivah that provided you with something called secular education”

what all these posters are against is guys like rabbi of maskilim, cantor esg, “not so’ pashute yid, less chumres,sinisent etc (b’h havent heard from him awhile so we dont have to put up with another un- chareidi, but we REALLY wish him health and gut yohr) who knimrod gibbor tzeid, come on ehrliche toireh site and mock when heilige gedolim talk about tznoius etc., or when meran hagoan hatzaddike elishev issues issur to certain weeklies (article chareidy weeklys may 3 ,08) they mock..(because truth hurts) and so with every issue that they give hisoirrous drasha…

to willi..we thing he can add your name to that list..

WE’LL STICK TO THE CD WITH THE NATURAL COMPUTER CHIPS THE HEILIGE BASHEFER IMPLANTED IN MY BRAIN. BY US ‘CHAREDI’, WE DONT READ NO MATTER HOW CLEAN A BOOK IS, IF ITS FROM KOIFRIM, ETC. SFORIM SAY JUST THE WORDS HAVE HASHPOEH ON THE READER , NOW ,NOW TAKE IT EASY, YOU JUST GO AHEAD AND DO WHAT THE BAR ILLAN CD PASKENS FOR YOU…BUT THIS IS THE SHITA OF HEILIGE ‘MYTH BEARING’ REVISIONIST’ REBBES ….”

In my humble opinion these maamarot do not seem to be following hevei kabeil et kol adam bsever panim yafot and hevei dan lkaf zchut

hevei dan lchaf zchut

It is an all around feeling that I have that you feel that Jews who don’t do what you do are lesser Jews. – Am I wrong that you feel that way?

al tistakel bakankan elah bmah sheyeish bo

This refers to all of the statements about hats and jackets and crocs. I am sure that HKBH cares more about what is in people’s neshomas then what they are wearing.

al tadin et chaveircha ad shetagiah limkomo

I was once at a funeral where a modern dressed man had a long grey ponytail and a kippah on his head. Most of the people there were chassidishe and chareidim. One of them walked up to him, flicked the ponytail and said mockingly “vos is dos”? in a very condescending way. The fellow calmly said. My brother has cancer and I am giving him this hair as a gift.

to jent…you are right, and i don’t need the pshetel…i understand that the ‘dan l’kaf zecht’is for the dan and not nidon…i thank you from absolving me from being matriach to dan you…how silly of me…we’ll leave all of that to the KBH. looking forward to hearing the continuation…

to ir hakodesh page 3..cont’d.. you say ‘have mekabel es kol huadom b’saver panim yofos…’ we dont even start to comprehend how this memre pertains here, like we said ,hodu to bodu..dont even know how to start refuting some thing that doesnt even make sense.. we’ ll try.. this memreh means when we walk on the street and greet somebody, which we have to do, even,O fellow citizen no matter who(thats what we do…reb yochenon ben zakai…v’afilu shel akim….)you do it with a smile , see also ketuboh 112b (?)’. u’lven shinaim mai chalov..’or anywhere you greet someone should be pleasantly….so what has this memrai got to do when one has a debate with somebody, and tells that somebody , in our case, that he is anti…we’re not going to rehash. mr ir hakodesh you seem to have resently joined, so you dont know what’s it all about. we’ve followed the postings of these signers 3/4 year, every time there is mentioned something b’noigayah anti toirah, d’hina,reform,mayor koch ,blind rabbi, all those articles they jump on the same bandwagon and uneqivocally support the anti toirah band . the other guys say ‘melamed zechus’,which is completly not shayech, but thats a pshetel unto itself.maybe another post.so if you dont know whats it all about vos sprung eir arein. now we dont know where you stand , charedi are anti ,so pick your side ..but this has nothing to do with ‘have mekable es…’ while we are at it ‘al tarbeh sicho im isha ‘ you are also such a ‘kenoah’ for? we can go thruh pirkai avos and ask on quite a few memres and ask the same..are you a ‘KANOIEH’ for thse memres too or just ‘THE TRUTH HURTS ? SO IF WE’LL GET AROUN WE’LL TAKLE THE NEXT.. ONE THING NOW..YOU SAY ONLY THE RIBONI SHEL OILOM KNOWS WHATS IN A YIDS HEART..ALSO HEIB NIT OHN TZU FARSTEIN…VE KUMPT DO AREIN?SO LETS SAY WHEN ONE SEES SOMEONE OIVER AVAIREH WE SHOULD JUST IGNORE AND SAY ‘ ONLY…’ IF YES SO YOU DONT KNOE OF THE MIZVAH KOLYIROEL AREIVIM ZEH L’ZAH..SO MIR STUMPED ON THAT ONE TO…AND THE NEXT..AND THE NEXT…

jent, as far as how i feel about pirkei avot and al tarbeh sichah im haisha, i have no problem with it since i’m not mr. irhakodesh but mrs. irhakodesh. i guess that that ends this conversation:)! have and easy fast.