Our Society And a Developing Crisis

never crossed my mind that God couldn’t provide. but does He always? check out the streets of Israel. there’s your answer.

and you didn’t really answer my question about nissim. it is 100% assur to rely on a nes in order to fulfill a mitzva. (with a few exceptions like the ner tamid and isha sota – if i remember correctly) but i believe the mitzva of pirya ve’rivya does not fall under this category. and don’t tell me all these people have 100% emuna and bitachon. i won’t buy it.

brooklyn, Its as clear as the sun that they do have bitachon. In this crazy day and age when birth control is forced down societies throat and living the good life is (lhavdil elef havdolos) the new G-d, anyone courageous enough not to use birth control is openly and inarguably demonstrating their full bitachon in Hakodosh Baruch Hu.

yes way. just because its hard for others to understand (not talking about you specifically), doesnt mean its impossible

brooklyn19: due to your limited understanding. The fault lies with you, not with the holy Yidden who are mekayim pru urvu to the fullest extent.

Im with Joseph, its the truth just depends when you learn that…

Joseph, to be mekayem the mitzvah to the fullest extent, you need one boy and one girl. That’s it.

I’m glad you think you know more than the Rabbonim in Lakewood, who are telling people there to ask about birth control, because it is an option – something that many people (you included) never thought was possible.

Saying things like this just highlights your ignorance.

Feif, yes the mitzvah d’oraisa is to have one boy and one girl, but everytime you do have another child it is d’rabanon which is also a nice thing to have if you are able to do it…

It is beautiful to see families with large number of kids- I dont care what you say about birth control. After the chorbon in Europe, we need to reproduce the gedolim that we lost….

But, if a family is having hard financial trouble… talk to a Rav. STOP PASKENING IN THE CR!!! since i dont know who you are anyways, how could I know where you are in the spectrum and if I can trust your opinion?!?! it is one thing to debate hashkafos, but halacha is where it must stop already! Lets stick to how it used to be… hashkafa, random questions, riddles/jokes and news/current events.

Since this seems to have degraded into a discussion on birth control…

There are Gedolim who allow it, there are Gedolim that do not.

Those who say no one allows it disrespects those Gedolim who do allow it.

As usual, ask your OWN LOR who knows YOUR situation. Be aware that it may be a halachicly valid option.

Also don’t disrespect those who get a Psak that they may not use it.

“Also, there is another pitfall to having many kids – often, you don’t get to spend quality time with each one. You churn them out, and then the oldest children help raise the others. I’ve seen this many times and its always unfair to the older children. Its one thing for your kids to help out (and they should), its another to make them into parents at 9 years old. “

This bears repeating in its entirety. There are several women in my neighborhood who have families upwards of 13-17 children. The moms are always pregnant (don’t even WANT to think about what that must feel like), and the older children are the ones who care for the little ones. I virtually NEVER see the moms with the kids, only older siblings taking care of the younger ones. You know what – the older sibs did not ask to become unpaid nannies, especially when their job is supposed to be to do well in school and learn how to be productive members of society. How much time can you really give a child who needs attention, when there are 8 or ten others in the family, also in need, especially when they are very close in age? I have kinehora five children by birth, as well as the two who married my children, and it is a huge juggling act, even when they are all adults. This one needs me to help proofread a paper, that one needs me to babysit, the next one, who does not drive, needs to be brought somewhere and picked up (car service is unreliable, and at night that is especially problematic), and so on. I would have loved to have more children, though Hashem took the decision out of my hands (VERY wisely, I might add), and I am happy with the ones I have, B”H.

SJS,

From what I understand about natural family planning as a contraceptive method, practically speaking it isn’t compatible with halacha.

What about children being children? by not being carefree and on a n important part of life- being carefree. by forcing them to grow up early- it can be damaging to their growth… Responsibility is good, but forcing them to be adults at 9,10 or 11 years old is crazy and abusive. There is a balance that must be kept and if one chooses to have many kids, they should be able to take care of them or afford babysitters. Why should the children be mothers to their siblings? Why should Bais Yaakov girls be free labor (as chessed hours) to members of the community who cannot take care of their children? I understand when their is a new birth or a crises in the family to use BY students for chessed. These chessed hours can be used to help people who did not choose to be in their situation- illness, death, disabilities, divorces or the many crises that unfortunately plague our communities.

All for the Boss was a wonderful book written by Reb. Ruchoma Shain, about her beloved father, Rav Yaakov Yosef Herman. She writes about her childhood growing up in the lower East Side. I highly recommend reading this book. It is a classic in English Judiaca and a must read for every jew.

This book is highly inspiring. Many people, frum and non-frum. even non-jews have read this book and were inspired. It is well written and written from the heart. Oomis, try to get your hands on this book. Her father, came to America, as a child, his family sent him from the old country by himself to stay with realitives. When demanded he pay rent, he resolved to be on his own. This was at the time where you either had to work or shabbos or find a new job every week. He had complete faith in Hashem. He was the father-in-law of one of our current gedolei Hador, Rav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg, Shil’ta, may he be well.

I’ll try to read it, though I am imagining it will not seriously change my mind about certain issues, though I am sure it is very inspirational. Given the context of the times about which she writes, it sounds like it is really not so relevant to today’s reality, as much as I am certain there is much wisdom contained in her work.

The next thing down this slippery slope, is you will have people come here arguing in support of parental-rights to euthanize unwanted offspring, utilizing all the same pathetic arguments made by a few above — you can pay more attention to the remaining children, you can’t afford as many children as you have, it was too hard with sooo many children, etc.

This is the road this is leading to fellows.

havesomeseichel

Member

What about children being children? by not being carefree and on a n important part of life- being carefree. by forcing them to grow up early- it can be damaging to their growth… Responsibility is good, but forcing them to be adults at 9,10 or 11 years old is crazy and abusive.

On a whole, children nowadays have too much free time on their hands. This is the number one cause of kids at risk (though of course we have seen countless people point to various micro-causes, I am stating the macro-cause, and I am sure of it). Some of us remember, while others can read about it in books (fiction and nonfiction), that not too long ago and going back to the beginning of time!!! children were EXPECTED to be productive even in their childhood years. Yes, we were children too, and were granted time to play, but we were always on call to perform chores – whether it was milking the cows, filling the water barrels, taking care of siblings (this was usually left to the mother, though), helping out in the store, splitting firewood, etc, etc. (I’m not saying that I did any of those things, but I had similar responsibilities)

In fact, the main reason for summer vacation from school is because children were needed at home to help with the harvest (also because of lack of air-conditioning). So don’t start with this garbage about how kids should be carefree and not given any responsibilities.

Now, there is a fine line that must not be crossed, and that is that we cannot expect too much from our children, or give them too many responsibilities. But in this day and age, we are so far to the opposite extreme that it is wild to even think that this line will be crossed. If a child has the time to sit in front of a television show every day, and play on the Xbox with his friends for hours at a time, have no fear that the child is being “forced to grow up too fast”. Many children in fact never grow up and continue playing on their Xbox into middle age, shunning responsibility.

If a 9, 10, or 11 year old knows that when he or she comes home from school he or she will have to watch the little kids for an hour before doing homework, what is wrong with that? That’s not forcing them to be adults, that’s barely asking anything! Point to a kid who has to do that AND give the kids baths, AND put them to sleep, AND make supper for the family AND make lunches for everyone to take the next morning AND help all the kids get dressed and I will agree that the child is being abused. But having a DEFINED responsibility to younger siblings is NOT abuse and is one of many VERY GOOD ways to give a child responsibilies (if he or she can handle it physically).

I am truly amazed at how much free time youngsters have and how strongly they feel that they are entitled to it. We live in a spoiled age B”H, but that does not mean that we should become lazy and unproductive.

So, after that long megilla, I hope that I have managed to at least divert the conversation back to something that fits the title of “Society and a Developing Crisis”.

The Big One – are you a man? Do you have any idea how hard it is to be pregnant? I was vomitting for the first 30 weeks of my pregnancy. So yes, I understand questioning how it must feel to be pregnant all the time. Post Partum Depression is really high nowadays – many women go untreated. Getting pregnant again is even worse for PPD because you cannot take drugs to help you. Unfortunately, most people do not take PPD seriously.

birth control borders on murder. the blood of the unborn cries out. all their future generations that were stopped cold by a would be parent who thought they are smarter than G-d.

Do you think you are smarter than the many rabbonim who allow birth control? (obviously the rabbonim decide on the situation) Doesnt the fetus not become a “halachic human” until 30 days? (or is it 40?) So how would birth control be considered bordering on murder? Unless you consider every month that a women doesnt get pregnant as if she (and her body) killed a life?

Will hill, there is a drastic difference between birth control and abortion. Birth control prevents a possible life, abortion KILLS a life. There are even situations where an abortion is allowed/required according to halacha. The slippery slope argument is very dangerous because I could make that argument with almost everything that is allowed by halacha. There is a reason we have our rabbonim who pasken for us rather than go by your logic.

If a 9, 10, or 11 year old knows that when he or she comes home from school he or she will have to watch the little kids for an hour before doing homework, what is wrong with that? That’s not forcing them to be adults, that’s barely asking anything! Point to a kid who has to do that AND give the kids baths, AND put them to sleep, AND make supper for the family AND make lunches for everyone to take the next morning AND help all the kids get dressed and I will agree that the child is being abused. But having a DEFINED responsibility to younger siblings is NOT abuse and is one of many VERY GOOD ways to give a child responsibilies (if he or she can handle it physically).

Squeak, I know plenty of families where the latter is the norm. There is a big difference between helping out, and shouldering major responsibility. My cousin’s daughter is allowed to go away once a year for shabbos because her mother just cannot spare her help. She is the oldest of 10 (followed by 8 boys and then a girl) and has major responsibility. My step-neice is the oldest of 9 and has a ton of responsibility. She is in seminary this year and told me she is never going back home (to live) because of the burden she has to bear. My cousin was barely allowed to come over and play (or vice versa) because she was watching her siblings. From a young age, she also helped her parents run their store from their house.

“(is the author by any chance a man???)”

no its a woman, Ruchoma Shain

who understands the lifestyle of a family devoted to Hashem (the “Boss”)

“In fact, the main reason for summer vacation from school is because children were needed at home to help with the harvest (also because of lack of air-conditioning). So don’t start with this garbage about how kids should be carefree and not given any responsibilities.”

Big One, you are a little strident soudning, and you are also speaking in extremes. Children no longer help with harvesting, and those who did, did not live the type of life that our frum kids do. No one says kids should not have responsibilities at home. But it is NOT their job to be slaves or become parents at age 9 or 10 (and let’s get real, in these homes it is usually the DAUGHTERS who are so designated). If those Holy Women in Klal Yisroel want to keep having children, it behooves them to take care of them. By the time many of the oldest female siblings grow up, they are burnt out. For you to think otherwise, much less criticize people who have that opinion, and for you to essentially equate birth control with murder, shows a singular lack of sensitivity to what pregnancy and motherhood are. Are you a man or woman? I honestly cannot believe that you could be a woman. Or else, you are very young, because only a young, extremely idealistic and inexperienced person could say what you said, in the loshon that you used. And if you are not a young person, then your words show a lack of tact, and you should know better.

So to those who are vehemently against birth control – do you think you know more than the rabbonim? When they say its ok, are they wrong?

Squeak and Mazal – unfortunately, with the people I know in large families, the oldest kids get huge responsibility well above what they should have. The only case where its not, is my friend whos family is really rich and can afford all the help they need. I don’t know if others know people who just help out, but I know too many kids who are overworked.

Anon, do you know why NFP is against halacha? Just curious.

Quite fascinating how the “developing crisis” went from Yissochar/Zevulun -kollel life to using birth control. (although i do see how it evolved)

I assume most people posting here have a Rov they consult. Leave it up to your Rov to decide these things, not anonymous posters.

SJSinNYC,

not sure what anon was referring to, but I would imagine that even if you do charts etc. there are certain times that you can’t prevent it. Know what I mean?

It is a vicious cycle- have many kids so the oldest daughter raises the youngest. She becomes burnt out so by the time she has her own children, she needs the help of her oldest….and around and around we go… but I am not supporting one thing or another. Just ask a rav, talk to your spouse, and KNOW YOURSELF and your limits!

Regarding BC for non-medical (e.g. financial or other) reasons…

The Shulchan Aruch (Even Haezer 76, 6), Rambam (Ishus 15, 1), Chazon Ish, Maharam Schick, etc clearly states it is assur for a married couple to postpone the mitzva of pirya vrivya.

The Chazon Ish amongst others states postponing the fulfilling of this mitzvah is Bittul Hamitzvah even if one later fulfils the mitzvah.

In Igros Moshe Even Haezer vol 1 beggining of no. 64, Reb Moshe states that “spacing” children is completely assur.

The Gemora in Yevomos 62b says that even after fulfilling pirya vrivya (i.e. one boy and one girl) one must continue to have additional children. This is based on Koheles 11:6 vloerev al tanach yodecha. In the morning you shall plant your seed, and in the evening you shall continue to do so.

The Birkei Yosef in Even Haezer chap. 1 writes you cannot decide to discontinue having children.

And today the wife has the same obligation as the husband of pirya vrivya (Lev Avraham #99 from the Chasam Sofer), since today the husband can only have one wife, whereas previously the husband could have multiple so if one wife wasn’t having children the husband could fulfil his obligation with other wives. The Avnei Nezer says this fact was true even before Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom.