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Feif Un,
Wow. thanks for enlightening us. 🙁
It’s good to know…
enlightenedjew,
I guess that’s why the goyim’s kids are turning out so much more emotionally healthy than Jewish kids.
PLEASE!
oomis1105,
You are definitely right. All the feminists may attack me on this, but it is just more natural for a woman to diaper a baby and wash the dishes as it is for the man to drill in a nail and build the succa. Of course you will always find people who are opposite but that is the nature.
In Mitzrayim the women had to do men’s jobs and vice versa and that was the Avodas Perach! But of course I do agree that both spouses should be equal partners (which does not mean they have to do the exact same things). Someone was just telling me the other day that when she had her fifth child (many years ago), she came home from the hospital 2 days later and was washing the dishes, making supper, doing laundry. She did not have any family who could help her. So she had no choice. I was horrified and was thinking WHERE WAS YOUR HUSBAND???
bored@work,
I think “Tzippi” can be voted in as “nicest lady in the coffee room” 🙂 (jk). I think she was just giving a few examples. She was basically asking, is it more chashuv to be in kollel with all the perks for five years or only manage for 2 but without any extras. Of course it could be the other way around as well but I think she was comparing quality vs. quantity. Am I right?
Intellegent – I believe children to be a bracha, most definitely. But each dor brings with it unique challenges, circumstances and scenarios. In this dor, with all the emotional and financial demands on our lives, sometimes some people may not be able to handle a family of 12, 9 or even 6 (or any other combination). This is a very personal, private, unique decision that needs to start being made between a husband and wife and progress with eitza from a trusted and experienced confidant.
As for non-jews, I wasn’t implying that less kids = well rounded, well adjusted kids. I just wondered whether if today everyone can emotionally and financially handle a large family. And when I say everyone I mean it literally, not figuratively. Blanket statements like “the more children the merrier” may be true in a vacuum, but not necessarily absolutely true in reality. Emunah doesn’t necessarily translate to doing something that you may not be able to handle, like having a tenth child while making $25,000 a year. That might be classified as foolhardy.
ok tzippi sorry for sounding mean, I just thought u were mocking, but i do understand you are showing different sides of it. I guess its to each his own u know and we should just try to do the right thing for ourselves
Intelligent, I was horrified to read about the woman with several children coming home from the hospital and doing all the housework. Where was her husband???? Probably reading the paper, or if so inclined, in the Beis Medrash, for which I am absolutely convinced he got no sachar for learning, when leaving a kimpaturin alone with all those children, and not allowing her the rest she needed and deserved. What good is anyone’s learning, when they do not put the mitzvah of V’ahavta l’rayacha kamocha (and who is more fitting to benefit from that than the woman he married, who is part of the “rayim ahuvim”) into practice? Torah is not an intellectual exercise. It is our guideline for how to live. OK, I do not know the whole story about this couple, maybe he had a very legitimate reason for not being home and doing the work that she was forced to do. But superficially without being dan l’kaf z’chus in this one instance, I have seen this pattern repeated often. It does not make the men look very good, I can tell you. Maybe THAT is a question shadchanim should be asking the mothers of the boys – what is your son’s position on sharing the burden of housework with his wife, especially after she gives birth? How important is it to him to be both physically and emotionally there for her?
Bored, I wasn’t insulted, just worried that I was misunderstood and might have ruffled your feathers. (Thanks, Intellegent.)
Re Feif Un: don’t forget, the kimpaturin had the most heavenly kimpaturin aid 😉
Mrs. Beautiful: that’s a lovely thought but anyone who says that to someone to encourage her to have more when she’s at a breaking point has to have broad shoulders (breitze plaitzes? Sounds better in the Yiddish) to be there to offer whatever moral and other support possible. Don’t we all remember the beautiful stories of the old time rebbeim who would tend to their flocks? An impersonal rav running off bromides and not being there to help pick up the pieces is not inspiring.
Mrs Beautiful, sorry if I sounded strident. It wasn’t you, it was that I saw what was the fairly nice thought you mentioned being abused in just the way I described, still frosts me.
tzippi –
You are in the wrong thread.
Mrs. Beautiful hasn’t posted here. What “story”?
Sorry
feif un, bitachon is in essence not only knowing that whatever Hashem is doing id=s for your best, but also never being nervous or afraid of anything BECAUSE of this knowledge. this can take a few years. the intellectual and emotional part of you clash, and its hard to reconcile both of them.
postsemgirl:
i dont think sem is brainwashing. i think sem is a strong influence on the right things. brainwashing=negative, so why would we go to seminary?
re will hill: right story and thread, wrong person. It was Brooklyn19. Sorry about that.
BYM: Here’s how a Rebbe of mine explained it to me: Emunah would be crossing a bridge because you really believe it’s safe. Bitachon would be that if the bridge broke, you know it’s still the best thing that could have happened to you.
exactly, but you also won’t get a panicked feeling or be scared BECAUSE you know it’s the best thing for you. if you’re about to crash into another car, your heart wont start to pound because instinctively, you know that this is the best for you. that would make you a true ba’al bitachon. thats why i mentioned before that bitachon can take years to develop.
tzippi – of course. that was totally not the issue. her house is relatively small so maybe she would have to have her son share a room with the new baby? not such a huge deal. but yes, there are plenty of valid reasons to stop having children.
amram and yocheved had pretty valid reasons if you ask me.
but when miriam tells her father, the gadol hador, that he has to get back together with his wife, he realizes that no matter what the situation, we have to trust that everything will be okay. the entire am yisroel followed amram, it wasnt just him, when he got back together with yocheved.
To add to Feif Un’s point:
In former times most women who nursed their babies (and most women did) did not ovulate until they weaned their babies. Some of the halachos mentioned in the Gemara about nursing mothers are based on this fact. Since most babies nursed for a year at least, babies were born further apart. Of course today many women ovulate while nursing (perhaps because of different lifestyles/ diets or different nursing patterns), and most babies don’t nurse that long, so women can now have babies much closer together than was formerly possible.
Consider that most women in TaNach did not have many children, certainly not as many as many families today (Leah and Peninah are obvious exceptions to this). Most men who had many children had multiple wives and/ or concubines.
If we strive to emulate how our Zeidas and Bubbes had children while slaves in Eretz Mitzrayim, it would be a good start in strengthining our Bitachon.
especially looking back at their mesiras nefesh and azus in that situation to still have children, like amram and yocheved.
Eyesopen – actually, teh reason for so many multiples lately is in vitro fertilization. During IVF, multiple fertilized embryos are implanted. Depending on how many eggs are implanted (usually 2-3), the possibility of multiples skyrockets.
Intellegent, don’t feel bad about him helping – marriage is an equal partnership. So, if he has some time to cook/clean and you don’t, then he should do it. (as you said he does, so I’m not implying he doesnt)
Honestly, I don’t know that many feminists who would have a problem with All the feminists may attack me on this, but it is just more natural for a woman to diaper a baby and wash the dishes as it is for the man to drill in a nail and build the succa. Of course you will always find people who are opposite but that is the nature. Its more that there should be options for women to drill nails if they want to. Its about freedom of choice, even if that choice is traditional (I know many “feminists” who stay home with their kids).
Oomis – I agree 100% that the system needs an overhaul! And that the husband is parenting not babysitting! About two weeks after my son was born, I went to a shower. I left the baby home with my husband. Everyone kept asking who was babysitting and I said no one, he is with his father! Sheesh! The husband and wife should be taking equal roles in the household (split in a way thats good for them).
Torah is not an intellectual exercise. It is our guideline for how to live. Unfortunately, for many men, its an intellectual excersize.
Bored@work – I think seminaries do subtle brainwashing many times (how much is dependant on where you go). Even if they don’t brainwash you, they really push you towards Kollel without showing you how hard it is. It would be good if each student would go over to a kollel couple’s house (ones without rich parents and in laws) and learn about how hard it is to budget with a kollel stipend and a wife’s salary. How there is no money for luxuries like new clothing, manicures, cleaning help, cars, jewelry, eating out at restaurants…its great if you are willing to give that up, but at least KNOW what you are going into. I think seminary tends to idealize kollel without showing the hardships.
BYM – seminary is a wonderful experience for many people, but yes, they do use the opportunity to “brainwash” people (levels dependant on the sem you attend). Its not the end result people find offensive, but the method. Does that make sense?
About Amram/Yocheved (or rather, on a similiar vein), it always amazed me that people during the holocaust had babies. I cannot imagine being in the midst of all those horrors and bringing a child into the world. They were truly amazing people.
Let’s take a poll (open to those who are or were in Kollel and wives). Would you have liked to know all the details of what aspects of life would be hard due to being in kollel or was it better to have gone into it idealistically without knowing 100% what it entailed.
Everyone else can comment but not vote (nice of me to make rules around here, isn’t it?)
Re Joseph: if you really want to get a g’feel for the Mitzrayim experience, start by taking on all your wife’s jobs for a month.
Re Joseph: my apologies for the sarcasm. But you know the famous story with the Chofetz Chaim and the furniture, and the upshot, that we’re not on that madreiga now. And you’re telling us to stretch ourselves past what we may feel is our breaking point? Do you know how to access the malachim the nashim tzidkoneios of Mitrayim had helping them when they were feeling utter despair? This is not so simple.
tzippi,
Your sarcasm is misplaced. Our Bubbes is Eretz Mitzrayim had as many children as they did, despite being forced by the evil Egyptians to do mens work. We who B’H don’t have that tzara, have even more reasons to fulfil the obligation of pru u’rvu to the fullest.
SJS, it makes sense 🙂
BYM: Appreciate every ounce of Seminary despite any loshon hora, rechilus, and sheker you hear tossed at the Seminary system.
well yeah, joseph. 15 grand later we had BETTER appreciate it no matter what! :}
15 grand plus another how many for clothes, spending money, and tickets???? Too much but let’s not start this sem argument again
lol ok 20 grand. but 5 of it would’ve been spent anyway. :}
I’m not one to talk, brooklyn, you know how old I am……lol
well actually i don’t… remind me?!
anyway, joseph i have a question.
look at all the struggling families in E”Y. there are families with 10, 12, 15 kids who rely on yad eliezer and other wonderful foundations for support. they can’t pay rent, put food on the table, or buy new shoes for their kids. maybe it’s our jobs as fellow yidden to give tzedaka, but isn’t it kinda irresponsible for them to keep having children when they KNOW they are dirt poor and can’t even provide a baby bottle?
I’m 17 lol. Remember?
brooklyn19, the idea of limiting having children based upon finances is preposterous. Perhaps they should have no children if they can’t afford it. Perhaps they shouldn’t get married if they cannot afford it. Is kashrus more important than pru urvu? Should they keep kosher if they can only afford non-kosher? Where is the bitachon here?
i understand what you’re saying. bit the fact is that there are kids who are starving. yes it’s a mitzva and a chiyuv, but how can one rely on a nes? and they are relying on nissim. it’s kind of a miracle for a human to survive without food and heat, wouldn’t you say?
i’m not saying to not get married and have kids. but there are a billion reasons why couples get heterim for birth control. shouldn’t a starving family of 12 qualify?
I also don’t understand that. How can responsible adults keep having children if they have no means of providing them with food. It really makes no sense to me and it bothers me a lot. Does anyone have a real answer (besides “Where is your bitachon?)?”
“Perhaps they shouldn’t get married if they cannot afford it.”
That is why there was a year separating the kiddushin from nissuin. You need to have a house and a parnassah before you get married.
Of course, that was the halacha then, I guess halacha changed.
BTW, many of the issues regarding birth control is sociological and not halachic. After the Holocaust, many people feel that to even mention birth control is assur. But like we saw what R’ Feinstein said (and others), it’s not 100% assur and people should realize that having 10-15 kids is not necessarily the best thing.
Keep in mind that even only 100 years ago, the odds of a kid reaching one year old was very slim. People had kids to replace kids that were lost. Today, with the advances of medicine, perhaps we should rethink this.
tb: In answer to your poll: It’s better not to know.
When we started in kollel, long ago- well 30 years ago -with no visible means of support- Hashem made many nissim v’niflaos-a.k.a. amazing coincidences- that enabled us to go on, not for so very long, perhaps, but longer than we would have thought possible. Would He have done this, if it was all budgeted out and worked, down to the last nickel? And the same thing happened to our friends, on a greater scale, proportionate, it seemed, to their determination to stay in learning. My husband is,B”H a baal achrayis and knew what had to be done and when was enough. Is it so very different now?
Here’s what I think:
Long ago in America, it wasn’t all that necessary to go beyond eighth grade in yeshiva. (Boys and girls). You could daven and learn enough based on that, and the world, including public high school had no resemblance to today. In the course of time it was necessary to go to yeshiva high school, and later, to have a post high school as a year of learning l’shma, and also as a buffer for interacting with secular society. I’m NOT saying that a few years of kolel are necessary in the same way, but I really feel the starting out in kollel, for a few years, starts off married life entirely differently, in terms of values,and priorities a.k.a.kedusha. As the secular world degenerates so rapidly, it seems to me that short- term kollel is pretty important, if at all possible, for most people.
brooklyn, having bitachon is not relying upon a nes.
don’t give me that. very often it’s not bitachon and you know it. it’s called naivety and stupidity. don’t go telling me that all those people really have bitachon. i’m sure there are a select few, but get real.
besides, why can’t it be relying on a nes? if i do something stupid while going to do a mitzva it’s muttar for me to rely on a nes? or is that not called relying on nissim?
brooklyn19
If a rich person has 12 children and then loses their money, should they give some up for adoption?
I don’t think this discussion should be discussed in a public forum. If someone has a shaala, they can ask a rav. This is a very private issue.
btw, seminary in e”y is not necessary. There are a couple of excellent local ones that are cheaper and don’t infringe on kol kevuda bas melech penima. It would be great if more would be sprouting in the U.S. rather than in E”Y but of course, there needs to be a demand first. (I am aware that for some people sem in E”Y is a great thing but it is not necessary for the majority.)
level of bitachon goes by how much emunah you have… so I guess thats why its hard to have this discussion online with different people who have different levels.
intellegent, i wouldnt say that it is a must, but it is so so important, before i went i was a good solid growing girl, i really had a strong foundation and did not c a reason for me to go. but after i go i realized that there are so many things I would not have gotten if i did not go, just spending a year in e’y which you are so so lucky to do (hopefully c u in less than a month!) but it is so important and i gained so much that will just change my life and the way i make all my life decisions…
bored@work
It’s nice to spend a year in E”Y, not necessary. Parents should NOT be spending thousands of dollars that they do or don’t have so their daughters can spend a year in E”Y. I think more sems need to open in the U.S. but as I said, that will only happen when there is a demand. Boys yeshivas work differently. There are certain Roshei Yeshiva who live in E”Y and have yeshivas there. Girls sems are not usually led by chashuva rabbanim and there are plenty chashuva rebetzins in the states not just in E”Y. Also, I don’t think a lot of girls who come here should be given so much freedom.
btw it’s not always considered having bitachon to be naive or stupid. so i wouldn’t say all these families have such strong bitachon (though i’m sure many do) if someone does not have 100% bitachon he’s gotta fill in with hishtadlus, correct? if not, he’s relying on a nes. which is not allowed, even for a mitzva.
It’s one thing when a person’s in a situation to have bitachon. How could people put themselves into a situation where they have know very well that they have no means of dealing with it? How many families in E”Y live fourteen kids in two rooms and almost no food or clothes? Are they really supposed to have kids number fifteen and sixteen?
abcd, perhaps they shouldn’t get married if they cannot ”afford it”? perhaps they can only afford non-kosher?
Most people are not completely destitute when they get married, (unless they’re the result of this same vicious cycle.) Most people can work, make money somehow or other. They don’t necessarily start out this way. It’s one thing to have some kids but is it really a mitzva to have fifteen?
Btw, I’m not asking to keep an argument. This is something that really bothers me every time I see it and I would like a real answer.
not the same thing. the man already fulfilled his mitzva of pirya ve’rivya after the first x amount of kids. the only issur here is preventing a new baby from being born. but we know there are heterim for that.
brooklyn-that’s exactly my question. Once the mitzva is fulfilled, is there any reason/mitzva that people will keep having kids with no way of providing for them?
Joseph, don’t compare kum v’asei (eating treif) with shev v’al ta’aseh (m’neias leida).
abcd, they don’t know to ask. If they would ask a reputable Rav, the rav would be able to work with them.
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