Our Society And a Developing Crisis

feivel:

How very true how we have fallen from our purest form of Avodas Hashem.

1) Bitachon without hishtadlus is pointless. The Chazon Ish wrote that.

perhaps ill advised, maybe even assur, but pointless? is that really what he said?

2) Men have been wearing rings for centuries.

Jewish men?

yossiea:

Please provide a source, as your quote is seemingly against the Rambam at the end of Shmita VYovel. I would like to see how thw Chazon Ish answers the apparent Stira.

Thanks.

“Jewish men have been wearing rings for centuries. Mordechai quickly comes to mind.

Rings weren’t just for decoration, they served a purpose as well.”

the issue being discussed in this thread is “wedding bands”

not rings of authority worn as symbols of leadership or kingship.

you know this.

you also know as well as i that Jewish men never wore wedding bands (and other rings only in exceptional rare specific circumstances) until the cancerous “enlightenment” movement, which began 2 centuries ago, brought the acceptability of worshiping and emulating the Goyim to the Jewish people.

done

brooklyn,

good point.

Squeak, maybe not for an office but what about in the medical field? If I married a guy that was a doctor I would probably want him to wear a ring (but only at work)

wearing a ring l’shaym shmayim, for shmira, to prevent an aveira, a ploy in the face of the Yatzer,

is an entirely different matter than

a man wearing a ring because that is simply the goyish tradition that has seeped into our corroded Minhagim, and accepted by us without a thought.

Hashem should, please, bring Moshiach soon.

squeak – you could argue whatever you want. i didn’t say that a guy without a ring is in trouble. but it as easier to work in an office. especially if there are formal/informal parties that a guy must attend. maybe you’re not familiar with today’s society. a lot of crazy things happen, even in the most formal offices. by bro’s a lawyer. there are sick stories.

(and no, he doesn’t wear a ring – he’s the biggest snob on the planet:} though he sometimes thinks he should, anyway.)

Don’t worry, I was not born yesterday. I know what goes on these days, and I know what went on before. I was only objecting to your statement that a man should have (you actually said it’s ‘kinda necessary’) a ring while he’s working w/ other people. And to that I say, believe me, the lack of a ring will not endanger him any more than having a ring will save him.

When you get married, you can insist on your husband wearing a ring if you want. But if you want it to assuage real concerns that you have then you are just applying a bandaid to a gunshot wound. Don’t be naive.

BTW, I do not wear a ring – and I have explained to people why I don’t countless times.

Didn’t Yehudah wear a ring? It says in P’ Vayeshev that Tamar asked him to give her collateral for the two goats he promised her (thinking she was a zonah). One of the three tokens that he gave him was his Chosam. Isn’t that a signet ring?

gavra, you are free of course to decline to respond to Doc or my own points, which is precisely my point: Don’t insist others must respond. I’ll assume you have come to the realization that the Rishonim are correct, and you are mistaken, not the Rishonim.

As far as this ring discussion, a Jew should not be flirting with others in the office, Gentile or Jew, regardless of his marital status, but kal vchomer if he is married. If someone feels the need for a shmira for himself, let him wear a nametag on his jacket or shirt pocket that states “I am married.” Unusual? Sticks out? Certainly less so than a Jewish man wearing a ring.

Chuck, I tried to convince my husband to wear a sign like that LOL (just kidding)

Many times when married men dont wear rings people think that the marriage is in trouble or that the couple is seperated, making the man “free game.” I trust my husband 100%, but I would prefer a sign for other people so he doesnt get into uncomfortable situations.

My husband works for a company thats 80% male – I wonder how I would feel if there were more women at his company!!

charlie brown – the tactic for explaining anything to goyim is to just keep the details out of it. I simply say, “It is the custom of my family that the men do not wear rings. Only the women do”. Once or twice I had a raised eyebrow at that response and then I gently added that my family’s customs pre-date the double ring ceremony.

No one has ever asked me “why” the custom is that way. They’re not interested in why. I suppose that if goyim wanted to know the “why” behind customs they would have a difficult time living with their own religion.

I once had to explain it to a frei person, so I mentioned the reason with the egel. But only because he wouldn’t let me get away with less (he was not asking for personal enlightenment, or I would have been glad to talk).

Kiruv, thats probably because this topic has been discussed ad nauseum so it veered off 🙂

As to my thoughts – perhaps when the people who need the money stop looking down on those who earn the money, Kollel might be more viable.

With the current economic climate, many big baalei tzedaka can no longer give any money or have to give much more limited funds. Its going to be tough to get funding for Kollel when there are little children that are starving. My husband and I are both working in professional jobs (we both have degrees and decent paying jobs), but it takes both of us to pay the mortgage, bills, daycare…we have very few luxuries (the only thing I really consider a luxury at this point is our TV/internet/phone package of $100/month and our gardener) – I never have cleaning help, we cook 99% of our meals, we barely buy new clothing (my husband needed some new suits recently because he hadnt bought any in 4 years), I havent bought any new clothing (except maternity clothing) in about 3 years. I coupon shop to save a ton of money. We basically make ends meet and have a little left over in case anything goes wrong. How can I even begin to think about supporting a Kollel couple? Yes, I give maaser, but that primarily goes to my shul or to people who need food right now. Soon, it will go towards yeshiva tuition.

Kollel is a luxury and the branch of society that pushes it so hard needs to understand that. Every man is required to learn and most of the working men I know learn a lot. There is no exemption to stop learning just because you are working.

the only problem i ever heard about a man wearing a wedding band is that he’s not supposed to get it under the chuppa. regular kidushin is that the guy gives the girl a ring (or a coin) and we don’t want to mess that up. but afterward, why not?

feivel, “wearing a ring l’shaym shmayim, for shmira, to prevent an aveira, a ploy in the face of the Yatzer, is an entirely different matter”

Why is that?

Re bored@work: are all the working people people who “aren’t cut out for learning”? If they are working, does that mean to you that their bitachon, or level of learning, wasn’t good enough? There are a LOT of people out here who spent several (unsupported) years of learning in kollel and had to go out to work to support their families. I’d like some clarification.

gavra_at_work, Again this is my point exactly. You are entirely free to decline to respond to an issue. It is your prerogative. Please provide the same courtesy to other posters, and do not insist they must be responsive to your demands – whether to respond to your inquires or to not post on a thread. Additionally, I notice you are a frequent poster here, and I congratulate you on all the spare time you can afford, nevertheless I was quite surprised that you initiated a personal attack in your comment – the very tactic you have decried. I expected more from you gavra_at_work. I also expect a better attitude in future conversations.

bored@work, sorry, you’re completely wrong. It says the Yissachar and Zevulun are EQUAL partners. Yissachar is NOT better than Zevulun.

Your attitude is exactly the kind of thing which turned me off to Judaism when I was younger. As a result of that, I spent about a year where I wasn’t religious.

gavra_at_work, Again this is my point exactly. You are entirely free to decline to respond to an issue. It is your prerogative. Please provide the same courtesy to other posters, and do not insist they must be responsive to your demands – whether to respond to your inquires or to not post on a thread. Additionally, I notice you are a frequent poster here, and I congratulate you on all the spare time you can afford, nevertheless I was quite surprised that you initiated a personal attack in your comment – the very tactic you have decried. I expected more from you gavra_at_work. I also expect a better attitude in future conversations.

squeak, Don’t bang your head too hard while you are ROTFL 🙂 No idea why it posted multiple times though.

who uses “ROTFL” anyway? LOL is much more used!

what does rotfl stand for-rolling on the floor?

SJS–I try not to be the debate type. As long as people are on their ladder of growth and going upwards that is what Hashem wants to see. Harbei D’rochim Lamakom—as long as people are intellectually honest, get the proper hadracha, and actually have a derech to come closer to HKB”H, thats what matters.

I can hear what you’re saying that kollel is a luxury–when I took time to chew on that idea, I thought back to moments I savor and live over in my minds eye when we were exclusively in kollel. It was a spiritual luxury which is irreplacable. I’m doubting that’s how you meant it—but I do hear from your perspective what you mean.

kiruvwife, I don’t think debate is a bad thing. Its not about attacking someone else, just trying to understand a different view point!

Can you expand on your spiritual luxury phrase? I am not quite sure I understand it.