Our Society And a Developing Crisis

WOW!

Good for the editor for posting.

I think we’ve all heard this problem before with shidduchim and working boys looked down upon but it hasn’t been solved yet!

Its overly simplistic to say that we as a community need a 50/50 split between workers and learners in order to remain solvent.

many investors and workers at Lehman, Bear Stearns etc lost their jobs and savings.

many wealthy individuals and tzedakas who invested in the stock market in general lost millions. With Madoff many lost Billions.

When will we learn that parnassa is min hashamayim?

When we learn that we will never know if the Yissachars are helping the Zevuluns (by causing them to have siyata dishmaya and make more money) more than the Zevuluns are helping the Yissachars (by writing a check to a kollel or supporting their kollel kids)?

Yes, we must do our hishtadlus. Yes, in Europe there never was a kollel system as there is bli ayin horah today. But tremendous people like Rav Ahron Kotler ZTL created this revolution because they saw that this is what Klal Yisroel needed. When our Gedolim say that we have too many Yissachars and not enough Zevuluns then the system will need to be changed. Until then, the more kollel yungerleit there are, the better off we all are. Does that mean noone should go work? Of course not. Each person should get advice from his rebbe/rosh yeshiva on what is right for him.

It is truly scary how many young people are being sent out into the world without the ability to earn a living. While the economy was good, we could afford the luxury, but sadly there will be much suffering as the economy sours.

While parnassa ultimately comes from the RBSO, too many people ignore the need for hishtadlus. Hishtadlus means giving your children a decent (secular) education when they are young, and giving them the means to have a career when they grow up.

Chazal and the gedolim of the past combined learning Torah with earning a living. Virtually the entire Torah is based on the assumption that the norm will be for people working instead of relying on miracles to support them. (For example, all the agricultural mitzvos.)

We certainly need kollels – but they should be for the exceptional student and not for everyone.

The original poster mentioned that girls look for a shidduch with a boy who will learn full time. Well, not all. My frum, ehrlich, baalos middos, baalos chesed daughters are approaching that age. They will each be looking for a boy who is frum, ehrlich, a baal middos, a baal chesed, who will be kovea itim l’torah, but will also fulfill the obligations on the kesuba to support his family to the best of his ability.

By the time our Gedolim recognize the disproportionate rate of Yissacher/Zevulun and understand the ramifications of same, it will probably be too late. And it doesn’t HAVE to be a problem at all…. our Yeshivah boys and girls need to be educated from birth with the idea that a learning boy should also be an earning boy. If they would not be brainwashed into believing that work is a four-letter word, and understand that Hashem always intended for the Jewish people to work for a living AND learn (how many of our mitzvos are work-related, how to treat one’s employees, what to leave in one’s fields for the poor, trumah and maaser – where did these concepts come from, my imagination???), then they would not be so resistant and derisive of the idea that im ein kemach ein Torah. My dad z”l got up early every morning in order to be able to learn before going to work. He learned when he had breaks, he learned after work, and he learned before going to bed.When he had a wife and family, he continued to learn, but ALSO spent quality time with his family every day (something I often see NOT happeneing among some of the yungerleit with whom I am acquainted). Maybe he did not sit in the beis medrash all day, but he made a p’shara between his desire to learn and his need to earn a parnassah to help support his family. His father was a Rov, and taught him that while it is important to learn Torah every day, it is also important to provide for one’s family and be well-educated.

“parnassa is min hashamayim”

That may be so, but it does not continue to say that the parnassah will FALL from Shamayim. That phrase means that Hashem decides what we will earn during the year. It does not mean that we have no achrayus to put in our hishtadlus in order to get that parnassah. Der Aibishter vet helfen, doesn’t mean we have no responsibility in the matter.

I will ask that a certain person/blogger who only criticizes and does not respond when that is refuted or asked for a reason or proof please not post anything.

You are one of the subjects of my post about guidelines (personal criticism), and are the personification of a Troll.

Thank you.

Note to mod: understood if not posted, but I had to try. It disrupts intelligent conversation.

gavra_at_work:

re: “I will ask that a certain person/blogger”

That post was uncalled for and counterproductive. And whoever you addressed it to, probably has no idea it is he. Whoever it is, doesn’t think of himself in those terms, even if your description is correct (which is a question.) And everyone else started wondering if you meant him, decided you didn’t, and figured it was whoever’s comments they like least.

And if that poster did know you were addressing him, he would most likely do precisely the opposite of what you request. The only one I can imagine you are talking about is y55.

So what exactly do you think that accomplished?

Most of my friends, and I included actually want a guy that has a plan, and that will go to college or work after a year or so. I think a lot of girls especially during these financial times wants a guy that has some sort of skill because a lot of parents an in-laws will not be able to support the way they expected.

We got to start with the BMG Coffee Room Chevra. They all need to be advised to get jobs or specific training for jobs. Emptying the BMG Coffee Room will energize the actual learners and spread the expense of Kollels among more earners.

BMG Coffee Room is a metaphor for those who do not have the Sitz Fleish to learn full time, even if they are smart enough to get in the most prestigious Yeshivas.

Next we need more positive attitude towards Limudei Chol. Several advantages will flow. The prestige of Talmidei Chachamim with secular knowledge is greater, just like those who dress properly. Almost every area of Torah knowledge needs some other supporting knowledge. Understanding Gemara Chulin needs knowledge of bovine anatomy.

Mr. Chuck:

Obviously you are very hurt by what I said. That was not the purpose, and I take it all back.

Yes my boss does not mind, I have mentioned this before. It is a good question.

1:**************”parnassa is min hashamayim”

2:**************”Then why bother to send delegations to collect.

Why make support deals with in-laws?

Why look for a “rich” shidduch?” **************

3:*************”hishtadlus.”

4:*************”Are those proper modes of hishtadlus? If yes, who made such a decision?

I never said that a large percentage was in the Coffee Room. However, boys with good minds but not the Sitz Fleish to sit and learn are being advised to “stay in learning” anyways. That was my personal experience 35 years ago, and since them the pressure to “stay in learning” has only increased.

I hear from my friends that some boys that they go out with admit that they are in BMG for the name, so hopefully they are the few that are in the coffee room and not the majority

Chuck Schwab:

I’m glad you’re willing to talk about it civily and as a conversation, thats all I asked for, to not post unless you will respond. (I’m still waiting for Doc)

As far as the first point, see what I said on the Chumras post, regarding losing all your OH vs. some of it. I believe R’ Miller ZZL would not have said you lose all your OH if you own a TV, which was the inference I got from posters like The Big One. There are also exceptions to every rule.

I also have seen Rishonim misquote other Rishonim, so don’t be surprised if us minor beings misquote the gedolim. I like to see things in print from the source before I believe them.

The second point is valid; it is an outcome of the type of job I have. I can have 2-3 (as many as ten or more sometimes) minutes at a time while I can only wait for other things to happen before I can continue. I can also type and read very quickly.

Thank you and have a good shabbos.

gavra_at_work:

You seem to have this bad attitude that if you ask someone something they are obligated to be there and respond to you. Or if someone makes a comment, it is mandatory that they respond to all posters who comment on it. This is far from the case. And additionally, not everyone has a laissez-faire boss who allows them to surf the net the entire workday on non-business related matters.

And who exactly are you anyways to demand that “a certain person not post anything”? Do you own or run this site? You didn’t even start this very thread!

You said “I also have seen Rishonim misquote other Rishonim”, and you are treading on very thin ice there. Who are YOU to say so? Perhaps the Rishonim quoting other Rishonim got it correct, and the quote YOU saw is incorrect.

Whats up (Doc):

1: Demand? How about ask to follow Netiquette.

2: Kedushei kessef BKarka.

3: Thin ice?

Mazal, have no fear – the economy will recover. The details might be new this time, but the situation has been here before many times. Ain chodosh tachas hashemesh. Trust the old timers, who have seen it all before. The magic word is “cycle”.

May you one day be zoche to be an old timer and cluck knowingly at such statements.

However, what you said about trusting Hashem is true. And if you or others learn this from your gut feelings about the current economic state, then you have gained tremendously and hopefully it will stay with you when the “fat” years return.

I know, I am not on that level of Bitachon either. My point was that we all have to realize that must have bitachon in everything. From paying tuition and bills. Times and situations have changed of course. But bitachon in Hashem must never change. Everything is coming from Hashem. I am working on this. On bitachon, something happened to me this week. I don’t drive and I didn’t want to bother my husband to take me to a shiur (he was sick). Before I left my house, I said to myself and to Hashem, “Hashem, I am going to trust that you will send someone to give me a lift to the class.” I got to the corner and saw a friend who I waved at. I didn’t even ask her for a lift, asked me if I needed a ride. I was so thankful to Hashem. B’H, my sister-in-law was at the class and she offered a ride to my girls’ chanukah workshop. I did not ask anyone except Hashem. He provided people to ask me if I needed the ride. Start with small things to work on. But, you must truly believe. Ain Od’ Milavdo.

Feif Un, Unfortunately you seem to knock the Torah at every which opportunity. You wrote that “Judaism is supposed to be based on what we learn from our parents and grandparents, build on the traditions of previous generations. Let’s follow the traditions of our grandparents.” Yet you admitted you yourself disposed of the traditions of your parents, grandparents, and previous generations. You previously stated you discarded your parents, grandparents, and previous generations mode of dress. You replaced their hat with your ring. Where are you practicing what you preach?

gavra_at_work, Where is it written in the holy grail of “Netiquette” that one must respond to every inquiry? You deny posters the right to make a point and move on? Who is bound to this so-called “Netiquette”? And Doc makes a good point that you neither initiated this thread nor administer this site. Why do you not trust in the good job the mods and editor is accomplishing in posting only appropriate material, that you find it necessary to tell another poster off, not to post? Nor do I see you responding to his point that perhaps the quotes from Rishonim that you saw were incorrect, and the Rishonim quoted their contemporaries correctly.

Chuck: I wear a black hat on Shabbos still. My grandfather, in his first marriage (to my grandmother, who passed away when my father was very young) did wear a ring. My father has it now, although he doesn’t wear it.

In fact, one Shabbos when I was visiting my parents, an old man in their shul (he’s almost 100 years old) asked me if I was European. He said that when he was young in Europe, most married men wore rings. He wanted to know if I was from Europe, and that was why I was wearing one.

“girls and boys only want to live a life of learning….what will happen to our society?”

We are taught that it will improve – Baruch Hashem.

I don’t mean to get involved in this argument, but I thought it would be interesting to mention the history of men wearing wedding rings. According to sources that I’ve seen, men wearing wedding rings is a pretty new-fangled thing.

I’ve heard that it was an idea that jewelers came up with in the late 19th century so as to double their sales (this should go in the “yiddishe kop” thread). The idea picked up momentum during the Depression and by the 1940s the vast majority of weddings involved giving a ring to the man. So a man close to 100 would have been around marriagable age back then. A man close to 150 would give you a different story.

Feif, The M.B. discusses on the Shulchan Orach O.C. 161:3. The discussion pertains to women. To the best of my knowledge neither the mechaber nor the M.B. refer to rings on men. (Obviously it would also be a mechitza on a man.)

“He makes no mention of it being assur”

complex problem whether or not it is assur (in the narrow sense)

it is certainly a goyish custom

the problem is, since so many of us Yidden have become estranged from our roots, from our fathers, from Yiddishkeit, from Hashem, and even though some observe technical Halachah, we have adopted many customs and mannerisms from our goyish environment.

do those customs become somehow then absorbed into the lowly world of Yiddishkeit today, as it is practiced by so many?

or do the embers of Har Sinai, still alive in every Yid, holy, pure and untainted by the Nations, define what is a Yiddish way of behavior?

for the Holy Poskim to determine.