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I was reading an article in today’s WSJ, and it contained the following line: “A spokesperson for the Orthodox Union, the organization of Modern Orthodox synagogues, said…”
That got me wondering. Does the OU officially consider itself MO? Do the MO consider it MO? The Chareidim? Do you?
There are different wings to the OU.
The kashrus wing is yeshivish.
The synagogue wing is MO.
JLIC is conservative/chovevei.
It’s hard to know what is the real OU.
does it matter?
Baruch Hashem it took several decades and someone from the WSJ to import a label. The OU has existed for a while without one. Let’s try to keep it that way.
PBA: YU is trying very hard to push into the JLIC.
And the Kashrus wing is run by YU Roshei Yeshiva. It’s good to know that YU is Yeshivish now.
The OU welcomes all who identify as Orthodox. Lets at least have one frum organization that is like that.
The kashrus wing is mixed. Lol Sam.
Charlie, so a shul can have no mechitzah, serve treif at their kiddush, and/or have carpools arranged for Shabbos, but as long as they “identify” as Orthodox, they can be in the OU?
YU is trying very hard to push into the JLIC.
I wish them success. Maybe we can get some rabbonim on campus who will do some good instead of shmad-ing the few students who remain frum.
popa put it succinctly. The leadership of the OU (i.e. parent organization) is of MO officers and rabbis. And the OU is officially affiliated with the overtly MO RCA. In fact, the RCA was founded as the Rabbinical Council of the OU; later it merged with the Rabbinical Council of RIETS/YU to form the current RCA.
Sam: The kashrus division is jointly run by Rabbi Belsky and staffed with rabbis such as Rabbi Reisman.
I don’t know much about JLIC. I checked their website, and looked at the profiles of the educators for a bunch of the colleges. The men seem to be YU musmachim for the most part (there were one or two who got their smichah in Israel). I didn’t see any YCT or Conservative people listed.
Maybe the college students they work with are Conservative/YCT types, but isn’t the whole program about kiruv? Let them be mekarev the YCT and Conservative students!
I believe the kashrus division is officially headed by HaGaon R’ Hershel Schachter shlita and HaGaon R’ Belsky shlita.
All Yiddin have to understand one thing. A Jew is a Jew. It doesn’t matter how they dress or is no one else’s business about what they do. Someone who believes in the Abishtur is a proper Yid and that is the only thing that matters. Each person has an issue of jealously or self confidence if they have a problem with someone else. As a Jew it is incumbent upon each and every one of us to except the fellow Jew and to love him or her. There is nothing that anyone can say that can dispute what I am saying. A Jew is a Jew and we are obligated to love and respect everyone for who they are. It is not anyone place to judge anyone for doing certain things. Someone might not do something that you are better at but on aspects where you are not as good they may excel. No one is perfect and we all have flaws. May we all love and respect each Jew for just being a Jew. There should be no Modox or Yeshivish or Chassidish. There are Jews and one shouldn’t be categorized by his action, just loved for being a Jew.
chulentmoma613:
While this may be an emotionally appealing thought, this simply cannot and should not be the case.
It’s one thing to say that one who wears a streimel or knitted kippah should be just as valued and loved as one who wears a velvet kippah. Certainly, anyone who is “bichlal amisecha” is on the same playing field in this regard.
And one should not Ch”V judge another person for his personal level of Yahadus either.
But, at the same time, it is vitally important that people know that the background/hashkafos (rebbi/mesorah) of any Jew who has influence on them has not come from foreign sources but rather from only Torah sources.
So this is one important reason for the distinction between, as you wrote, “Modox or Yeshivish or Chassidish”.
May Hashem grant wisdom and strength to all His children to drop their infatuation with foreign gods and other foreign nonsense and secular culture so that all His children look to only Hashem and His Torah.
OU is Modern Orthodox politically, but Chareidi in terms of kashrus (since good hecksherim put bad hecksherim out of business, so if OU had “low” standards, it would alienate a large part of the kosher market, whereas people who are “liberal” on kashrus will buy products with high level hecksherim as long as the price and quality are good).
akuperma: So what do you mean when you say the OU is not MO for kashrus, but chareid? Are you saying that MO have lower standards of kashrus than chareidim do?
I wouldn’t say you’re correct. The OU is not makpid on cholov Yisrael, yoshon, or pas Yisrael. Many (if not most) chareidim are makpid on these.
Hakatan (as self-described) wants everyone to believe that all MO get their hashkafa from foreign non-Torah sources. That comment is so utterly false disgusting that I cannot even believe it would be allowed here.
And if he’s interested (or at least understands), I’d be glad to compare the fealty of Litvishe MO to traditional mekoros with that of the Besh”t’s hashkafa etc.
HaKatan:
Why is it automatically assumed that someone who is not exactly like you “has influence on them has not come from foreign sources but rather from only Torah sources.”??? There are a vast majority of “modern” buchrim learning in eretz yosroel who wear a knit yalmakah or dress casual but are top notch. They are very frum and have a vast knowledge of torah wisdon but dont dress yeshivish, why should they be not accepted the same as someone who is the exact same as them but dresses differently?
Quoted from the webiste of Jewish Action (the OU’s magazine):
“Jewish Action, the quarterly magazine publication of the Orthodox Union, serves as a forum for a diversity of legitimate opinions within the spectrum of Orthodox Judaism.”
I think the same idea holds true for the OU in general. It was created and still exists to help the various needs of the entire spectrum of Orthdox Jews in America and beyond, and is staffed with such a diversity, so to call it a blanket term such as yeshivish or M.O. is in my opinion misleading. However, as a general gauge of “political” hashkafa and activism, I would say it does lean towards a more Modern Orthodox view. This, however, should not detract from its legitimacy in the eyes of more yeshivish or chassidish jews, but just the opposite: isn’t it beautiful that we can have at least one frum organization that turns away from the petty diferences between all frum, Orthodox Jews? That even chareidim eat foods with the hashgacha of a mosdos which includes the M.O.? I think it’s precisely that which makes the OU so globally recognized, unique and wonderful at what they do.
The Agudas Yisroel of America represents all of Orthodoxy. It doesn’t purport to be a “chareidi” (whatever that means) organization.
mw13: As I mentioned, it has historical links, as the RCA was originally founded as the Rabbinical Council of the OU. The OU and RCA frequently put out joint statements. The RCA’s website, on their “About Us” page says that they are an “important partner” of the OU and that the RCA is the OU’s “rabbinic authority”.
Rebbe Yid and cholentmama:
Again, this was in response to cholentmama’s assertion that “There should be no Modox or Yeshivish or Chassidish.”
And, again, nobody is judging any individual person.
However, the MO “movement”, is, by definition and in plain fact, influenced by outside sources.
Not only does MO not see this as the problem(s) that our gedolim (Rav Shach, Rav Schwab, et al.) noted that it is, MO considers its approach to be even superior to the Torah-only approach.
That many MO are (otherwise) very frum and have vast Torah knowledge (like their non-MO counter-parts) is really great. But these other influences cannot be ignored.
So, again, there does, therefore, need to be a distinction between “Modox or Yeshivish or Chassidish.”
Ah, isn’t it so nice to be able to make nebulous comments and write off thousands of Frum Jews?
Sam, I think it must be so liberating. Stroke of a keyboard and you’re the only legitimate opinion!
Hakatan, what “distinction” do you want? Are MO deniers of the 13 ikarim or people who don’t keep halacha CH”V? Or maybe, there’s just another derech to which you aren’t accustomed to. You don’t need to agree; there are gedolim on either side, and eilu v’eilu divrei elokim chaim. You don’t write off chasidim/litvaks/sephardim/ any segment of frum judaism (whichever one you’re not) because they aren’t exactly the same as you. Whatever happened to machlokes l’sheim shomayim?
One of my ultimate wishes is that we should get over our tiny, insignificant differences and be b’achdus forever.
Just a reminder for a few days from now when we all picture ourselves crossing Yam Suf with our kids and our in-laws and our donkeys loaded down with rechush Mitzrayim: We crossed in 12 different paths. Doesn’t mean we were picking fruits off the trees and throwing them at the guys in the next lane. But we all kept to our own path.
mw13: no, it’s not. It’s only in response to people who call for “distinctions” between MO and others, and that consider any other derachim than theirs illegitimate!
golfer: I don’t understand what you intend by that post. That we should stay apart and keep our distance? Chas V’shalom! That goes against the very grain of the idea of achdus: k’ish echad b’lev echad! On the contrary, especially now that we all have so many enemies that try to destroy us, we must do all we can to ascertain unity: having the same goals, working together and feeling as one am yisrael, not splintered and scattered among the nations, but one loving whole.
Some people draw the red line after all self-declared Orthodox before Conservative. Others draw the line before the meshichists. Others draw the red line after MO but before OO. And others draw the line before MO. And others draw the line elsewhere.
But everyone has that red line where once you go over you’re crossing the rubicon. It’s only a matter of where you draw it. (Some people even draw the line inclusive of the Conservatives.)
golfer: i heard that that (the lack of achdus by krias yam suf) was the reason why the mealchim only started complaining by krias yam suf “eilu uyvdai avoda, v’eilu uyvdai avoda” and not before
Showjoe, it was because they had pessel micha with them. They actually carried it into the Yam Suf where they were being saved and the Mitzrim were being killed. The complaint was at the juxtaposition of these being saved and those being drowned- same time, same place, seemingly same type of people.
Your idea makes no sense because the neis of splitting the sea was done in such a way that the yabasha was divided into 12 by The One who made the Neiss, not by the people walking through. But if you bring me a source instead of an “I heard”, I’ll give you a pass.
IvduEs, don’t worry, you can keep on loving everybody Ad Bi’as Goel, and (hopefully) beyond. Remember- “Yitamu Chata’im…”, Not Chotim. Maintaining individuality in our path to Avodas Hashem, according to the derech of our Mesora, doesn’t mean we hate anybody. Not sure what you’re having trouble with.
mw13: Or maybe because he has spent years in the past calling “MO” “Judaism and Avodah Zarah mixed together”.
I always found the mo shitah to be ridiculous
kj chusid: Please define the “MO Shittah” before you call it ridiculous.
Is there even a definition to an MO shitta – or does it depend on which person’s MO you’re talking about.
Joseph: Presumably there is no definition of an “MO Shittah” just like there is no definition of the “Yeshivish Shittah”. That’s kinda (but not completely) my point.
MO Shittos:
a)really MO, not holding by negiya or tzniyus ( two outwardly defining characteristics, but not limited to AT ALL) no limmud hatorah-sends kids to co-ed schools
b)Medium MO, pretty frum, solid tzniyus, TV, Some sort of learning, kids go to separate schools
c)Kida MO- still Zionist and pro-madda, but are VERY machshiv torah, very into tzniyus, sometimes no TV’s etc.
these are the three types of MO in YU and in the MO communities
Sam: But there’s no defined “Yeshivish” community or organizations. The term is merely colloquial. The same is true about “Chareidi”. The organizations that people call yeshivish or chareidi don’t refer to themselves as that. OTOH, you have an official MO movement with MO organizations and institutions and rabbis who officially consider themselves MO. Those who are colloquially called Yeshivish (or Chareidi) mostly never referred to themselves as such. In America you can go to Yeshiva from Kindergarten through Kollel and you will most probably never hear “we are Chareidi”, and you may even never hear the term used at all.
What I’m trying to understand is if there are no “MO shittos” or minhagim why does anyone officially consider themselves to be MO or have established MO institutions?
golfer: im sorry, i seem to have misquoted the noam elimelech.
the noam elimelech bring down a medresh that at the yam, the b”y were not b’achdus. he says that is the reason why the malachim said “halalu uvdai avoda zara v’halau uvdai avoda zara” and the only way the yam split says the noam elimelech, was when HAshem said “daber el B”Y v’yisau“, which the noam elimelech reads to say “tell B”Y to be one group”
so fakert, this shows that even though there were 12 tunnels, HAshem considered it (at least?) enough achdus to split the sea.
Sam2:
You seem to be referring to quotes such as:
1. Rav Elchonon Wasserman HY”D, in Ikvisa DiMishicha, that Zionism is A”Z and “Religious Zionism” is religion mixed with A”Z.
2. The Brisker Rav, who was in E”Y at the time the State of Israel was founded, and publicly noted that the Mizrachi (education system) is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.
ViRabbim kaHeina viKaheina.
That isn’t strictly the point here, which is why I didn’t bring those up until you insisted on mentioning them. But since you did mention those, the facts are what they are: this is the Torah’s view as expressed by our gedolim and it obviously has not changed, MOs wishes to the contrary not withstanding.
Joseph: I don’t think there is such a thing as an “MO” institution. YU is referred to as the “flagship institution of Modern Orthodoxy” by many, but again, you don’t have people inside YU declaring “we are YU”. I’ve been in YU and I’ve been in Yeshivish Yeshivos. As have many friends of mine. The hock in all places is the same. The same Hashkafic spectra, the same discussions, just with different impetuses depending on the place.
I will grant that many use the term “Modern Orthodox” as an excuse to try and get out of Halachos that they find difficult. But that by no means applies to most. Most just listen to their Rabbis, like any other stream of Orthodoxy, and most Rabbis Pasken out of the Mishnah Brurah, like any other stream of Orthodoxy.
Someone I respect a lot once explained the difference between YU and Lakewood as how public the hobbies are. Guys at both places might have a collection of Star Wars books. The YU guy keeps his on his shelf; the Lakewood guy in a drawer.
I think this is indicative of the differences, but far from the cause. There certainly are different outlooks. The main difference, as many say, is how much people think they can learn from the outside world as opposed to how much it should be avoided. Everyone agrees there is what to be learned from the outside world. Everyone agrees there are things in the outside world to be avoided. The difference is where the risk/reward line is drawn. For the YU guy, the hobbies are on the shelf–he’s okay with his interactions with the outside world being part of his life. For the Lakewood guy, everything is hidden in the drawer–he only learns from the outside world when absolutely necessary.
R’ Schachter is famous for saying that the difference between YU and Lakewood is how far the concept of “Daas Torah” is extended.
HaKatan: You have been saying things like your last line for years, yet your only examples of such are a high schooler making a crude joke and an assumption that all “MO” people go to Broadway shows. At some point, put up or shut up. Explain what you think that “MO” does that changes the Torah or stop spewing your hatred.
Thank you, showjoe, for taking the time to clarify, and for providing the source.
Nice vort.
I would just add- I’m not sure it was “at least”.
Following a different path while we all share one common goal doesn’t equal a lack of achdus.
It seems that two out of about twenty JLIC rabbis are YCT ordinated.
I’m curious as to the overall numbers of YU musmachim vs. YCT.
Someone I respect a lot once explained the difference between YU and Lakewood as how public the hobbies are. Guys at both places might have a collection of Star Wars books. The YU guy keeps his on his shelf; the Lakewood guy in a drawer.
That is silly. You go on to write, “The main difference, as many say, is how much people think they can learn from the outside world as opposed to how much it should be avoided.”
This is much closer to the truth, but doesn’t address the fact that therefore, non YU yeshiva guys are in fact less exposed to the outside world, hence less likely to take an interest in Star Wars. Not that there aren’t any, but it’s a lot more than just a difference of how public it is; there’s a big difference in how prevalent and absorbing it is.
That is only true in theory. And in wishes. The sad reality is much closer to what that person said about the drawer. Not wanting it to be true just isn’t enough.
Sam2:
Your purported explanation of the difference between a Lakewood guy and a YU guy is almost all wrong other than, perhaps, the “shelf/drawer” part.
First, both interact with the outside world.
Second, a Lakewood guy knows better than most that ONLY Torah is Torah and everything else is in a different world. The YU guy, on the other hand, “synthesizes” the two and calls them equals.
I don’t understand what exactly you are referring to when you insist “put up or shut up”. I am simply quoting the major Torah sages of the past 150 or so years.
Regardless, we have discussed various things that MO “holds of” and does, and you can certainly go back and check the old threads rather than misrepresent my quotes and posts. There’s plenty more, like the setup/practices that YU chose for “Yeshiva”/Stern College. We’ve discussed things in this area in the past, too.
I guess you mean that these and other gedolim should have “put up or shut up”. I guess you also feel entitled to this opinion.
Sam2:
Out of respect to you, I specifically did not mention earlier what Rav Shach, Rav Schwab and others wrote about Rabbi YB Soloveichik and later MO Rabbi(s).
MO’s founding father, Rabbi YB Soloveichik, admitted he broke away from his family’s mesorah. As opposed to the gedolim who followed a mesorah who stated unequivocally that he was wrong.
What else? Would you like to discuss YU’s “Yeshiva” and Stern Colleges? The mixed-gender almost-everything which is clearly against halacha, etc.?
Come on, Sam. This has been discussed before, contrary to your misrepresentation in your past post. And does it really matter what aveiros some people do in the name of MO? Are you asking me to “bash” them? I really don’t want to, and it’s not relevant. Only the institutions and philosophy/theology are relevant, not the people who may mean well, including yourself.
MO is so proudly Zionist that Zionism is essentially one of the most important tenets of their faith. Look at any mission statement of any MO institution, etc. We have discussed this all in the past. I have read plenty of MO publications and writings. This is not a secret, of course.
As it happens, I recently saw a YouTube video of a prominent MO school. If I didn’t know better, I would have wondered if the place was, instead, Conservative. But it was definitely not, as MO like to put it, “halakhic”.
I guess that fits with Rav Aharon Kotler’s statement “The essence of MO is the same as Conservative”.
So please stop trying to justify that which is simply wrong and against the Torah according to our Torah sages and, as Rav Shach noted, that which even a school-child can tell you is wrong.
You’re probably a great guy and I’ve called you “erudite” in the past, but none of that can justify the unjustifiable, as well-meaning as people may be.
Hakatan- “However, the MO “movement”, is, by definition and in plain fact, influenced by outside sources.”
Please describe to me these “outside sources” you talk about. Growing up in the MO world it is easy to say I agree with you that Modern Orthodoxy is quite immersed in the outside world, but again like someone said above, to varying degrees. Some are more, some less.
JLIC I will have you know is NOT conservative. That is the Hillel movement. JLIC brings minyanim to campus, there are beis medrashim with mechitzas for minyanim and tables for boys to learn between classes. JLIC allows people to come to campus and go to a shiur to infuse their day with Torah.
In the working world, where people work all day to make a parnassa, they might not be able to learn all day. they might not be able to live of their parents for the rest of their lives. They need to learn how to infuse Torah into their days because it won’t be fed to them on a silver platter. JLIC gives frum jews that opportunity.
YU and Stern have not only seperate classes, they have seperate buildings, YU is by 184th st area and Stern by 34th St. Nowhere near each other
It is true that Einstein , Cardozo, Sy Syms and Wertzweiler have mixed classes, but those are graduate programs
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