OU kashrus is not reliable?

Hashgachos have their own rules for how they do things. Dont assume that if the star-K does it this way, the OU does too and vice versa. This is true of any hechsher. The only guarantee is that if you assume it will eventually come back to bite you.

I find it interesting that the cover story of this weeks Crain’s is called “The High Cost of Kosher” (I find the title offensive in that it plays into the typical anti-semitic rant about the “Jew Tax”)

The cover of Crain’s has pictures of OU seal tape.

I was in the supermarket and I looked at Swiss Fudge Cookies and it said O-U Pareve on the package

Regarding Stella Doro cookies. Search for a NY Times article titled “how orthodox jews saved an italian recipe” that was written when word came out Kraft foods would not switch to dairy chocolate.

If you read the article till the end There is a correction that points out what you do.

I remember this article because one of the people quoted is a neighbor of mine and we were so impressed that we knew someone cited in the times.

Stello Doro I belive is the only non-jewish brand of cookie that is not dairy. Most commercial cookies and cakes that are not jewish brand are dairy

They write pareve because they changed the packaging well in advance of the planned change in recipe to reflect an oud. After the outcry they printed pareve. Just another example where the kashrus symbol is as much a marketing tool as it provides kashrus status.

All that said, I think the grievance brought up here about products advertised as non-dairy is totally legitimate. Hechshers aren’t provided for non-pareve sandwich bread lest it be eaten with meat. If there’s a concern that people will assume bread to be pareve without regard for the hechsher, how much more so for products that explicitly claim to be non-dairy?

We pasken that that din is only relevant to bread. Don’t make up new gezeiros.

I explained why it’s not a legitmate chashash; you need to check for a hechsher.

Also, most of these products are dairy, and I’m not a fan (see my previous posts) of turning your brain off and blaming the OU.

If you want to cross out the worse NON DAIRY with a Sharpie as soon as you get home, go right ahead.

The words NON DAIRY are government mandated, so the OU can’t tell them to take it off, so I don’t blame them for certifying it.

Who said anything about blaming the OU? The Taz and Magein Avraham hold that it applies to more than just bread. You’re correct that we don’t pasken like that, but don’t accuse me of “making it up.”

I’m not claiming the OU should stop hechshering in these situations. I think you understood my point, but, naturally, you chose to be rude instead.

“It’s always the consumer’s fault” is not a legitimate rebuttal. If Oreos went from dairy equipment to dairy, and thousands of people erred because NOTHING changed about the hechsher, would that still be their fault?

BTW, earlier, someone posted (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/ou-kashrus-is-not-reliable/page/5#post-603103) that the OU is makpid on frum ownership plus a mashiach temidi. This is not true, they are only makpid on mashgiach temidi. I looked up Le Marais, and the owner is not Jewish.

I would like to emphasize that a kashrus symbol is there for people to look at and read.

So one should note if it says OU-D or not and if there is in fact a hashgacha or not.

The same with restaurants, ,you should see if they have the hashgacha and if the certificate is up to date. I make it a point to check and have at times seen out of date certificates. I have walked out of establishments that only had an old certificate and could not demonstrate that it was renewed.

However, in the case of the candies first referenced to, it seems even the OU recognized that it could be confusing based on their response. One would not suspect that they should have to look for multiple hashgochas on one packages (unless you are looking for the added sticker)

The ou sends out updates and Alerts almost daily if you’re concerned about changes in the status of Oreos or anything else they certify sign up to receive their Alerts. Also sign-up with the other agencies as well as Alerts from kashrus magazine or Kosherquest.org or similar organizations who will send updates from all agencies. The Alerts are issues it is noones fault except the individual who doesn’t sign up to receive them.

Le Marais is grandfathered in from the days when the OU didn’t require frum ownership. Now, if a place wants the OU, they need to have fru ownership.

I know friends who are mashgichim and they say the difference is like night and day between a frum owned business and a non frum owned business.

And for food service, kashrus is very expensive; the agency charges a lot for use of the name and their endorsement, while the mahsgiach temidi should be paid at least $20 an hour if bedikas tolaim is involved, in my opinion.

Ahin Un OHare said:

OU tends to be very lenient in Kashrus supervision.

Example: The nearly 1,000 (!!!) Milchig coffee creamers that they certify are labeled NON-Dairy in large letters (based on some government rule), but the casein (cheese) ingredient is listed in fine print.

I have queried them on this, but have gotten evasive replies.

My Posek says this is a serious issue!!!

Far be it for me to say something about your posek but its clear he doesnt know about this issue and to say its a serious issue is completely and totally INCORRECT!

The FACT is that the govt doesnt treat Casein as dairy (Casein and caseinates are often found in foods that boldly proclaim themselves “nondairy.” This is simply a leftover from the old days, when dairyness was legally defined as containing milkfat), while the Torah does, because is comes from milk!

It is for that reason that “non dairy” creamers such as Carnation etc are CORRECTLY marked OUD.

Sometimes rabbonim need to investigate before making a claim that is false.

Unless the Volover was involved, and I dont know if he is, if you think the holier than thou hechsher

There are some good heimishe hechsherim (including but certainly not limited to the Volover Rav), and some almost worthless ones. People need to do their research, and not assume that a fancy symbol with Hebrew words automatically means it’s good.

You’ve identified the wrong yetzer hora here, though. This is not so much about gaavah, it’s more about gelt.

Re: non dairy creamers. I was in the supermarket last night, and the two or three brands they carried did not say NON DAIRY in a very visible place; the product description was “coffee creamer”.

The ones I remember seeing were Nestle Coffee-Mate and International Delight.

Your comment about Oreos is a bit off.

What did I say about Oreos that is off? I think all I said was that the status might change and you need to stay updated.

This is not a light issue for many reasons. The first thing to consider is that publishing that an organization is not reliable without knowing exactly who will read it, is for sure Lashon Hara.

Nothing in this world is black and white.

For a person living in Timbuktu, that doesn’t have access to Badatz and Velove products, the OU is perfect. For them to only eat from the highest standards is inconceivable. (think people on shlichus or someone newly observant.)

For somebody in Yerushalayim, New York, or Monsey, for instance, with a strong Jewish background there may not be an excuse to eat something with a simple OU.

I actually know of somebody who called up the OU to ask about a specific cereal. The Rabbi there asked her where she lives, and when she replied Williamsburg, he told her, “Shame on you. You live in a place where the highest standard of kashrus is available. This cereal was not made for you. Go buy a Jewish brand.”

The OU is a tremendous organization, providing the world with kosher products, but because of their tremendous size, it is very hard to have a mashgiach tamidi at every single plant. That is why mistakes happen.

I have respect for the OU, although I do not eat products with only the OU hechsher. Given my current situation in life, I have access to more careful “mashgiached” food, but i would never make away with the OU, and neither should you.

It would go undetected by thousands, until someone has an allergic reaction ch”v!

Coming from an epi-pen family with super severe allergies to everything from milk to fish to peanuts, to a rare allergy disease caleld FPIES, I hav e been blessed to really appreciate what kashrus means.

It was pointed out here that non-Jewish cookies are usually made with dairy products. Can you imagine what its like to have to be terrified every time you or your child allergic to dairy wants to grab a quick bite to eat outside of the house? Restaurants, bakeries – all off limits.

kashrus protects not only our neshamos, but our bodies as well. I know that, b’ezras Hashem, a fleishig takeout or restaurant will almost always be safe for our family, since according to halacha, neither fish nor dairy will cooked together with fleish.

Isn’t that amazing? Just be keeping kosher, my blood pressure level and sanity are automatically preserved, as well my risk minimized.

Isn’t that just beautiful?

NC, what do you want the OU to do? Do you want them to refuse to give a hechsher to creamer which says Non-Dairy on it? Should they not allow Oreos to have a D on it? Should they not disclose that the only issue is equipment?

CM, aren’t Oreos already a dairy allergy sensitive product?

How many times do I need to say I’m not blaming the OU? This is the last time. It’s not my fault you all can’t get over yourselves.

DY: Yes, they should have a dairy equipment hechsher like the CRC does and like any common sense organization would do. It’s a different halachic status than full blown dairy.

Apush: Not everyone would necessarily realize that. Some people are new to keeping kosher. Not everyone is as brilliant and wonderful and perfect as you… Now, would you like to repeat your argument so that I can repeat mine yet again? Would that help?

bring back DE

Then people will eat it with fleishig.

And one person will eat it with fleishig and then start a thread in the CR saying how unreliable they are.

They can’t win.

“Then people will eat it with fleishig”

That is the OU’s official reason for not having the DE hechsher. Some of us disagree with the argument, some Kashrus agencies decide differently.

I don’t personally see the kind of person who would willingly mix DE food and fleishig as being the type to post an “OU isn’t trustworthy thread” on the YWN forums. There’s a difference between the kind of person who might miss an OU alert here and there (ie. all of us) and the kind of person who would purposely eat DE with meat. Yes, it’s kind of a lose lose, but we all have the sides we’ve picked. The choice is between preventing willful transgression while risking accidental (OUD only) or risking willful transgression while preventing accidental (The case for DE).

Why would Nabisco want an OUD over a DE? Do they have any say?

Ahh I see. They could chose a different hechsher. Sorry, I misunderstood the first time.

I’m not including mixing meat with dairy equipment as an “accidental transgression.” I believe that when the OU talks about the risk of people doing that, they are speaking of people who willingly make the choice. Only using OUD could cause accidental transgression for the reasons mentioned now by several of us on this thread. I don’t really feel like repeating.

The other day, I purchased pareve english muffins. Didn’t realize they existed (outside Brooklyn, anyway)

“I think whether or not the OU should use DE, and the reasons for each position, is not where this thread was.”

You mean to say a Coffee Room thread went off topic? No. Way. …May I ask about your positions on Zionism?

“You can’t anticipate and prevent every possible mishap, but I guess that within reason, they try to do what they can.”

Exactly. The OU thinks their technique prevents more mistakes, the CRC thinks a dairy equipment hechsher does. Popa and I seem to side with the CRC, you seem to side with the OU on this. I believe that eventually the OU will be forced to bring back the DE in order to keep up with competition.