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the fact that these packages made their way into heimishe stores and people bought them means, a number of people at a number of levels, made assumptions they should not have. the OU made an assumption that people wouldnt make these assumptions, and they assumed wrong too. therefore, the OU is going to reevaluate their policy so that even when people assume when they should not this type of mistake hopefully wont happen again.
I have also spoken to people in kashrus and they all said this is not a re-callable issue, however as Rabbi Genack noted, this is something to be looked into and policy should be enacted because of this. The company is NOT doing anything wrong because they are showing that those two items are kosher, they copied their Nutritional Declaration from the other packaging.
Kashrus agencies cannot act as the brains of the consumers. WE need to take some SELF responsibility too!
I will also point out that anyone who doesn’t think the OU is reliable is fooling themselves big time! I challenge you to walk into the OU office like I did when I had a meeting there or peek into their annual mashgiach meetings in Boro Park or Flatbush and continue spouting that utter narishkeit. You will be amazed and you will eat whatever covering you have on your cranium.
Not everything is a recall issue. In Poppy’s case of three years ago with the dairy sour cream flavor, that is NOT recallable because the ingredients CLEARLY list the dairy ingredient. WE NEED TO TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY TOO! We need to realize kashrus is a major nes taking place. Would you like to go to the European way where no one knows whats kosher and whats not UNLESS you have the booklet from each shtetel? Be happy with what you have !
Popa, my broader point is that people need to take responsibility for what they eat, and checking labels is part of that. I think this is a wonderful example as people seem to be exonerating themselves for any blame for their own carelessness by blaming the OU. Objectively, I do not think this is the OU’s fault, as a very minimal amount of care is needed to see that the gummies aren’t certified. Nevertheless, I think it makes sense to change the policy since l’ma’aseh too many people have been trained to be zombies and just see an OU and proceed to turn their brains off.
This reminds me of the scene from Friday Night at the Hockers where the not frum guy brings a package of cake with lard in it and tells Mr. Hocker that it has an OU – the label says pOUnd cake.
I think heimish store sales are a totally different issue. A heimish store is claiming it only sells kosher, not that there are kosher components to its items. And if they claim to be only ch”y products, they would need to abide by that as well. People should expect to find only kosher items in those stores unless otherwise specified on the front door somewhere.
however (!) my first time in a “heimish”store (my first time in boro park) I saw a display of granny’s marshmallows back when they weren’t even pretending to be kosher. if I recall, it was a triangle k with gelatin listed in the ingredients. I told the ‘store guy’ that they weren’t kosher and he responded that he got them from the distributor who said they are. I argued with him about it, telling him how I know they are not acceptable and he wouldn’t budge. Since then, I always check labels no matter what joe schmo endorses it verbally.
The fact that the heimishe stores sold this treif product with the OU on the outside shows that even food professionals that are in the business of selling only kosher products made this mistake (and passed it on to their kosher-only customers). How much more so the average consumer who walks into ShopRite or Walmart and sees an OU and puts the item in his wagon, brings it home, uses it in his keilim and R”L eats it!
You need a Patent / Copyright attorney to decide if the O-U can stop it or not.
Depends for what.
To put an unauthorized OU on a package which is completely uncertified? I don’t need a lawyer for that.
To stop Hershey’s from doing it in the future? They just need to put it in the contract.
Maybe a third party repackager or a store can use it in a completely non-misleading way if the product really is certified.
An ice cream store in my neighborhood had a large sign hanging in their window stating all their ice cream was ou certified. it was written in such a way to imply that the store itself was certified. I dont think 2 hours passed from the phone call to the ou asking about their certification of the shop to the time the sign was taken down. they do take mislabeling seriously.
agree or disagree with their conclusions, that is up to you. the OU is an open book and all of their policies are available to whoever asks making the decision whether or not to rely on them or when to rely on them a very easy decision.
Joseph – it has not been verified that any heimish stores sold this candy and I for one dont believe they did. you are just throwing that in to make the consumer sound less responsible. And in addition to that, saying this candy has an OU on the outside is deliberately misleading.
No response regarding the marshmallows tho and the behavior of the store owner? was he just “duped” by his distributor? Can we expect other heimish owners to disregard information based on info from the people who make money off their purchases? I was hoping you would tell me he was wrong and more an exception than the norm.
This package most certainly does have an OU on the outside packaging. The back of the outside packaging is part of the outside packaging. Regarding the heimishe stores, a commenter on the previous page said they sold this.
Has it been confirmed that the kosher food and the non-kosher food inside this package are not intermingled or physically in contact with one another?
Did people buy this candy in a large non Jewish supermarket such as shop rite or wegmans or in Jewish stores such moishes or season’s or the like?
this seems to be your “source” that it was sold at a heimish store. And your comments seem to indicate you are another one giving opinions about a physical layout that you have not actually observed (cuz if you did, your comments make no sense at all).
That comment wasn’t the “source”, it was a subsequent comment stating “the fact that this package was sold in heimishe stores too”. I’m not vouching that is the case, but that is a verbatim quote someone made that it was or is being sold in heimishe stores.
And I’ve observed detailed images of the physical layout of both sides of the packaging in question.
do you remember who said that because I read it thru twice specifically checking for confirmation that i was sure i wouldnt find. could be i missed it but i am pretty sure i did not. i think it was telephone game, apy asked the above question, and someone ran with it.
if you really saw the bag, then you wouldn’t be making the statements you are making. youre smarter than that. unless you are just trying to be provacative, which would be odd.
ah – i think i found it.
apy – did you get word of this or is this you making an assumption??
This was probably further driven by the fact that this package was sold in heimishe stores too and some assumed kosher and checked for nothing. Never assume.
:0
popa- lol
I said it. I heard Rabbi Wikler (I think that is how his last name is pronounced) of kashrus magazine on a radio show say it and callers to his show said they purchased it at a heimishe store in boro park.
Thus my earlier comment applies:
The fact that the heimishe stores sold this treif product with the OU on the outside shows that even food professionals that are in the business of selling only kosher products made this mistake (and passed it on to their kosher-only customers). How much more so the average consumer who walks into ShopRite or Walmart and sees an OU and puts the item in his wagon, brings it home, uses it in his keilim and R”L eats it!
There was a hemish Store in Monsey that rented out space to a butcher who was selling treyf. It can happen anywhere . It was a big scandal there
I disagree. For all i know there guy who sold it was the same one who couldn’t care less that he was carrying treif marshmallows. You have no proof this was an error of confusion, it could have been irresponsibility on his part, just like the shoppers.
Even if we assume you’re correct about his irresponsibility, the undeniable end-result is he’s selling these unquestionably non-kosher products to frum kosher consumers. And what is, even from your perspective, paving the way for this mass distribution of tarfus to Yidden is that the package bears an OU.
Bottom line. Dont assume.
At the end of the day, even for people thinking there is nothing wrong with having the OU symbol on a package containing food that isn’t certified, and the shopper should take responsibility for what he buys. There is an inyan of not putting a stumbling block in front of a blind person. If people mistakenly ate non kosher food because of this. That alone is reason to stop the practice.
I would agree that they should stop, but don’t use the term “stumbling block”, which implies an actual issur of lifnei over, which I don’t think they are oiver on.
Maybe yes maybe not. That’s for a rav to pasken.
Let him also pasken whether they’re oiver for giving a hechsher to Welch’s, Lays variety packs, and to Jolly Ranchers altogether.
Forget all the packaging hock! The Rav HaMachshir for the OU was HaRav Yisroel Belsky ZT”L! He was niftar 6 weeks ago! Who is paskening their sheilos NOW!!! Who are we relying on!?!?!?!?!?!
Rabbi Genack, same as before.
Not Rabbi Hershel Schachter?
Moshe5300,
Calm your liver! You weren’t relying on Rav Belsky ztl before either! Do you think the Rosh Yeshiva ztl went to all 7000+ plants across the world????? CERTAINLY NOT!
What you need to know is how the organization handles things so I will try and explain it based on how it was told to me. First of all, NOT everything is a shayala! 90% is common sense along with a knowledge of halocha which B’H the OU’s rabonim in the office and the field know. Second of all, IF there is a shayla someplace, they would refer to a database of shaylas which have been asked over the years to see if that shayla came up before and how they paskened. If there is an answer with a good tzushtel to this issue, they could go with it, if not, off to #3.
Third, the shayla would be posed to the OU poskim, which consisted of Rav Belsky ztl and yb’lch Rabbi Genack and Rav Hershel Shachter, g’dolim in shas and poskim. They would issue their p’sak. The Rosh HaPoskim didnt agree on everything however they held each other in the highest esteem. They would also try and work it out so that the Rov who “lost” would be happy with the way the issue was handled in the plants.
Dont worry, they are in good hands!
How far should we take it though? Maybe they shouldn’t give a hashgachah to any varieties of Jolly Rancher because one may confuse one with another?
Her’s an idea I believe is used by the Eida Hachareidis. When they make a run of an item which normally has a different hechsher, the labeling for the item is changed noticeably.
In EY you can find 2 containers of Tnuva cheese side by side with different hechsheirim. The Eida cheese will have a wide gold stripe across the cover. In America you can find Paskesz candy with the Eida hechsher. On those packages the company logo is changed and say in large letters ‘Paskesz Badatz’.
Something like that can definitely be useful for products which have kosher & non-kosher versions.
Yes, they do that.
I’m talking about two different products from the same company.
They “changed” the packaging. This is in fact a new package. The nutrition label information was probably copied and pasted from file A to file B. The nutrition label happens to also contain the hechsher. They could have called it Heimishe Ranchers and put it in a bright yellow bag, it wouldnt change the nutrition label info.
And this people, is why our Rav says we cannot eat OU.
And this people, is why our Rav says we cannot eat OU.
Without the OU , Kashruth would be almost impossible unless you owned a farm , grew your own food and raised your own animals and never bought store food
Most ingrediants in hemish products rely on the O-U (and the other major organizations) because they cannot possibly do the hashghcha themselves, they are not big enough
Perhaps, but people who live in places where the frum brands are available don’t need to buy end products certified exclusively by the OU.
There’s a big difference between a Rov selectively using certain OU products that he researched and verified meets his proper kashrus standards and requirements to use as ingredients in food products he certifies as kosher – or advises his adherents they are permitted to consume specific OU products, than saying that there is blanket permission to eat any and all OU products.
If an End brand is Hemish, but uses O-U ingridents , really what is the difference?
So so cookies use O-U Flour, Ou Sugar, OU-Spinkles but has a Hemish hashghcha on the package, Its STILL based on the O-U. You cant put a hemish hashghcha on pork
If an End brand is Hemish, but uses O-U ingridents , really what is the difference?
The other hechsherim don’t accept every OU ingredient and process, only some. The example you gave actually demonstrates the point – if cookies only have an OU, they’re probably not pas Yisroel; with a heimishe hechsher, they are. (I’m not aware of any heimishe hechsher which allows pas palter.)
DY
Back to my favorite pet peeve the Hemish Twizzlers. Do you really think the Hemish Twizzlers are Pas Yisroel?
It is the exact same everything as the regular twizzlers except one day a hemish rav comes in and puts some stickers on some of them. The hersheys company does not change anything when he comes
Of course they’re not pas Yisroel; they’re not pas!
Are they different? I have no idea.
Let’s say, though, for instance, that whichever hechsher it is does not allow confectioners glaze (the OU does).
Someone who doesn’t eat confectioners glaze would only eat Twizzlers because of the sticker (although if he does research and determines that no Twizzlers have it, he may choose to eat it even without a sticker).
Twizzlers are cooked somehow.
Most industrial pre-packed items are pas “MACHINE”. Nobody bakes it , its all done by machines
OU is probably the largest hechsher out there, with the most research and expertise. All the other hechsherim use OU materials and policies all the time on many things.
For me:
I only use OU tuna with bishul yisroel/hashgacha temidis.
I don’t rely on OU-D, but will confirm if OU-D items are just dairy equipment or are actual dairy, on a case by case basis.
I only buy meat with an OU (generally BYL or another reliably beis yosef brand)
I try to buy canned and processed foods with a chashash of pas akum or bishul akum with a heimish hechsher where they take care of these concerns.
Again, dont assume. Just because it is a “heimishe hechsher” it doesnt necessarily mean you could or should rely on it. They may have standards that you like, but do they have the manpower and resources to enforce that standard? Are they stretched to thin?
My biggest question is who came up with the disclaimer? Doing a Google search on the text didn’t come up with earlier instances (but that is inconclusive) and it doesn’t seem like something Hershey’s package designer would come up with.
Twizzlers are cooked somehow.
Pas akum and bishul akum are two separate gezeiros, with different sets of halachos.
its all done by machines
Someone turns the machines on.
I only use OU tuna with bishul yisroel/hashgacha temidis.
Same here. I’ve seen people unaware that there are shailos on regular OU tuna, and when made aware, found out that their poskim actually are machmir.
I don’t rely on OU-D, but will confirm if OU-D items are just dairy equipment or are actual dairy, on a case by case basis.
You’re not makpid on keilim?
I only buy meat with an OU (generally BYL or another reliably beis yosef brand)
Which meats don’t have an OU?
I try to buy canned and processed foods with a chashash of pas akum or bishul akum with a heimish hechsher where they take care of these concerns.
Which products have a chashash?
Dash: Do you mind sharing how you make those symbols?
SD,
You keep carping about Twizzlers and say that all that is done is that a sticker is affixed.
This is pure conjecture on your part and almost certainly completely incorrect.
Which meats don’t have an OU?
Those under Star K, but if it’s Star S, I’ll buy it. I buy my meat from either Moisha’s/KRM, or from Glatt Mart.
I’m not makpid on chalav stam kelim. I recently adapted cholov yisroel, so in time, I’ll probably become makpid on kelim, also.
For vegetables, I tend to keep it to Postiv/Kosher Gardens, but will occasionally buy Bodek for some things.
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