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I am more outraged that Trader Joe’s is now making their delicious pareve, and allergy-safe (for my granddaughter, who cannot have even traces of nuts) chocolate chips, MILCHIG or produced on milchig equipment.
It’s fine, they’re still pareve.
slicha, but D I R T Y ?fries? What’s in a name. What next?!
Also,some people could wrongly assume the fries in question are “sour cream flavour” ,therefore wrongly deducing that is why they are not “dairy” designated.
A hechsher is supposed to make it all easier,much easier.
P.S some of the ingredient lists on a lot of food packages are so small they are often unreadable.
Please, can the ingredient lists be made a point 14,to make them readable, perhaps even in legislation.
I know some packets are too small for this, so how about a protruding sticker?
It could also induce manufacturers to reduce the number of their ingredients,if self life and taste are not compromised.
Oomis,
I too, sent them an email (I’ve never actually used their chocolate chips, but I know that they’re supposed to be better).
You’re 100% right – money talks. If enough people complain, they might switch back. It’s actually not, if I’m properly informed, a manufacturing issue, but a packaging one. Yitayningwut might be technically correct (AYLOR), but I don’t think it’s a good idea to rely on it, since if it ever really becomes milchig, you might never know.
Sorry about the nitpick.
You’re 100% right – money talks. If enough people complain, they might switch back.
I’m not sure if you’re referring to the company or the hashgacha agency…
I sure hope that quote would not apply to a hashgocha agency.
If you are all concerned with a REAL kashers problem check out this weeks issue of mishpacha and find out what goes on at some kosher catered events
yitayningwut:
“You’re 100% right – money talks. If enough people complain, they might switch back.”
I’m not sure if you’re referring to the company or the hashgacha agency…
Tomche:
I sure hope that quote would not apply to a hashgocha agency.
I was, of course, referring to Trader Joe’s, but yitayningwut very cleverly applied it to the hechsher.
That’s “l’shitaso”.
DY – I know that from the standpoint of the product it is still milchig (assuming they did not change the formula at all, but only the equipment on which it is processed). BUT – I asked a shailah and my rov paskened we could not bake for fleishigs with it, i.e. put it in cookies being served at a Shabbos meal on the same table where there are meat dishes though we COULD serve it immediately after the meal with no waiting time.
The shame is that TJ chocolate chips are superior in taste to the others. I used to use Nestles until they became milchig, then went to Paszkes, Bloom’s, and whatever the Jewish brands are. But when my granddaughter became allergic to nuts, her doctor (a frum guy) advised us that in his vast experience, the Jewish-owned companies were not absolutely honorable in their ingredient listings, and chidlren who were allergic to peanuts or other traces of nuts, were having anaphylactic reactions (one near-fatality) to an item that had no listing of nuts or production in a nut-processing facility in its ingredients. So he believes that it is better not to trust those companies. the kosher, secular companies like Nabisco, have a safer track record. Only issue is dairy versus pareve, as most of their products are dairy. it ain’t easy.
What I don’t get is how these companies cut their noses off by turning away lactose intolerant or allergic customers. That has nothing to do with kashrus, and one would think that would matter to them, if the Oerthodox consumer does not.
FYI: This OU alert was published on YWN: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=128296
Oomis,
I assume the first line in your post was a typo – “milchig” shoud read “pareve”.
I think the issue is not the frum companies per se, but store brands in general (the frum companies don’t usually have their own facilities; they kasher the facilities which produce generic products).
It might be worth a shot to contact Manischewitz and ask them if Mishpacha brand chocolate chips have any traces of nuts. Manischewitz is a fairly large company.
This OU alert
The CRC alert was about an OK product (although this discussion started about the OU).
Wow! There are like 50 things on that list. Is their system so poorly run?
To make a fair determination, you’d have to know the total number of items they certify. If they certify hundreds of thousands of products (which the OU claims they do), 50 might not be too bad.
50 is also a gross exaggeration. Most of those are not OU, and some are that the certification is missing, not wrong.
Chips are very often added into salads, including salami salad, or even used to bread chicken. So the risk of milk and meat is extrmely real. (And I love Beigel & Beigel’s sour cream flavored chips in salads.)
So yes consumers have to be vigilant, but even more so the kashrus agency as many people trust them blindly, and causing others to sin and placing a stumbling block in front of somebody are both severe transgressions.
What would you have done if there was no D on milk duds?
Oomis,
I emailed Manischewitz, and they responded that Mishpacha chocalate chips are nut free.
I saw a skver hechsher on a 7 day candle last week which was 100% vegetable oil. lichorah the naphaka minah is if the candle falls into your cholent. also lichorah if the candle was paraffin wax you wouldn’t need a hechsher in the first place
I emailed the OU’s webbe rebbe ([email protected]) about this issue. Their response:
Thank you for contacting the OU.
Regarding the Dirty Chips, (Sour Cream):
Each bag has ink-jetted on the date code an OU-D and / or word dairy.
Popa,
Did you see that on your bag?
I agree with you on problem #1.
Maybe the guy on the phone did too.
Hi Wolf,
I dont want to box you into a corner, but again, your statement that, “it’s a matter of practicality” is a bit shallow.
We do not live as Jews for the sole reason the things we do are practical.
Again, maybe you didnt really mean to ask, that if someone does not want to eat OU because of the credibility of the hechsher, “Then what would you eat?”
I dont want to box you into a corner, but again, your statement that, “it’s a matter of practicality” is a bit shallow.
So, I’m shallow. That’s probably the nicest thing you* can say about me.
The Wolf
* I don’t mean “you” personally — I mean “anyone.”
PBA & others – If you don’t eat OU, then you can’t eat Vaad of Balto. OU is more Machmir in Bishul Acum. Vaad of Balto. holds using the glow bar is enough, but OU won’t be Somieach on this Heter. Also Tarkitor Rov, I think they had a discussion about it here in the CR. OK & Chof-K – many people have Taanos on also. And to say all these Av Dak Hechsherim aren’t Someiach on the main guys is patently false. Why? Because unless they have Chemists working for them – how do they know what is inside all these chemicals? (And chemical ingredients aren’t just a few ingredients inside food products.) They don’t. They are Someiach on the big guys.
So if you want not to eat OU – don’t eat anything processed – do like some do on Pesach.
I personally eat almost any Orthodox Hechsher – “Aid Echod Neeman B’issurim.”
As far as Timtum Halev – I already have my fill from the Net. (;0
Hey Wolf,
You misunderstand. It is not about you. The scope of the topic was a complaint about OU.
Some people were critical of the person questioning the validity of an OU hechsher for a certain case.
You gave as a support to your view something of the tone that if you are going to avoid OU, then you will have very little to choose from.
The implications were that the kashrus/treif issue COULD be compromised based on having less choices of food.
That point just stood out begging to be addressed.
You are not shallow!
Anybody recall OU scandal with sardines 2 years ago? unfortunately their level of trust and their standard of kashrus is very shady..
Popa,
Aren’t most of the syrups used in Starbucks flavored coffees certified by the OU?
IIRC, a teacher of mine was a part time Mashgiach for OU. He mentioned that they have the ability to recall a product whenever they need to. I also remember him saying that OU takes a collateral to guarantee that if a company starts pulling funny business, OU has the ability to properly advertise the loss of Kashrut. The company he was talking about had a $70,000 collateral.
Also, I agree with Popa in regards to getting misled by the labeling. Nowadays, almost all flavors are fake that nothing is surprising anymore. We have sour cream flavored chips in Israel which are quite good that are pareve. If the ingredients said anything different I wouldn’t have noticed.
I guess what some posters are tayning is that OU doesn’t have so much ne’emonus in the first place; so it’s really Popa’s fault for not doing some lab research before eating.
OU has very Choshuv & eminent Rabbonim on their Va’ad, & it is 100% Motzi Shem La’az & unacceptable to in any way denigrate these Gedolei haDor.
OU is a top notch Hechsher, and we should all be Makir Tov for the wonderful work they do for us.
or be signed up for the email alerts
I hope this point was brought up & endorsed at the Asifah?
It is a problem that the industry, and some of the big players have grown to unmanageable proportions. Add to that the global nature of the business, and the subcontracting of manpower in remote locations. While you might trust the OU, you might not want to rely on some of the subcontractors if you, for instance, don’t regard the followers/worshipers of a dead Messiah as reliable Jews. I only heard of this phenom from a me’siach l’fi tumo.
Are there really so many people who would see an OU on an ingredients sub-panel and think it’s all kosher?
They’re probably the same people who think sour cream is pareve.
I can easily see many people purchasing the product because it has a kosher symbol on the outside packaging without realizing that it is applicable to only some of the products inside but not all.
But the outside packaging does not have and OU. The ingredient panel for two out of three has OU and it is not possible to read that panel without noticing that there are two more ext to it. You would really have to be an idiot to think that this “package” bears an OU.
And yes, that is my professional opinion.
But the outside packaging does not have and OU.
The picture on the main site shows the outside package bears an OU. Many people will quickly scan the outside package for the kosher symbol, find it, and buy it.
Also, Rabbi Genack said he is looking to change OU policy to prevent this in the future, saying “I understand that it can be confusing and therefore we should move in a direction to eliminate this kind of situation.”
No, it doesn’t. It shows three ingredient panels, very seperate and distinct. And two of them have OU’s. And one doesn’t. Stating that there was an OU on the “outside packaging” implies on the front, declaring the whole bag kosher.
Not true. Many products have the kosher symbol on the back not the front. So it being on the back doesn’t necessarily make consumers question it any more than if it were on the front. Many people will make a quick scan and find the symbol without noticing there are other panels. And some people who did see other panels will still naturally think a kosher symbol anywhere on the front or back of the outside packaging means everything inside is kosher.
And Rabbi Genack disagrees with you. He agrees it can be confusing and it should be eliminated.
Yes true. Many products have the kosher symbol on the back at the end of the list of ingredients. And if you are looking at THREE panels and you choose to only scan one of them, then you are either irresponsible or ignorant and possibly shouldn’t be shopping on your own.
You have no idea if Rabbi Genack agrees with me or not. Maybe he also knows that some people are idiots and his job is to make sure they are supported. Parents do it all the time. The fact that he is making things easier for them based on the fact that they err, does not mean he isn’t laughing in his sleeve.
You must be right if Rabbi Genack said “it can be confusing” but he doesn’t think it can be confusing.
That’s right! He did not say it IS confusing, he said that it can be confusing – to people who aren’t intelligent or responsible enough to know what they are looking at/for.
It is misleading to put an OU symbol on a packaging if not everything in the package is OU.
If I put out a pan of brownies and write DAIRY – CONTAINS MILK in big letters in front of it and three people come up to me to say they ate them without realizing they were milchik, I, as the provider, would be obligated to make changes. Not because there was a problem with the warning, but because there are consumers who need more help.
So then we essentially agree.
Queen, if you see that there is NO OU on the package, but on the back there are three seperate ingredient panels and you have to actively chose one to read (knowing there are two others there) and you keep reading until you find the OU on that panel, I would put money on it that you would not think it was implying the contents of the bag is kosher. When they use the term “outside packaging” it gives the impression there is an OU on the front.
Agree on what? You agree that it isn’t confusing but some people can’t seem to navigate so now there’s a whole big deal being made and the OU has to step in and ask for kindergarten accommodations for our consumer market? Great!
That’s exactly my point pops. You DON’T analyze, you just read. But when you look for the ingredients on the panel, you can’t not notice that there are three to choose from. Do you sometimes see the word SOUP and think that’s an OU too because you just picked it up and ran?
(remind me not to eat in your house)
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