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@Ready now, I really don’t understand how begging is intellectual. I am an adult who went otd a while back. No amount of begging, crying or pleading will make me change my mind. Note I wrote mind and not emotions.
And to clear up some other misconceptions: I was never abused and was raised in a loving home. I couldn’t have asked for better parents. The people who leave Judaism for emotional reasons tend to be those who were abused.
In addition, some of you seem to be of the opinion that people go off the derech to party.
Regarding rebdoniel’s comment: individuals who go otd are not immoral. You said they get lost in alcoholism and yet I’d venture to say that I drink less alcohol than you do. And I’ve never tried drugs. And neither am I promiscuous. Maybe those who were abused feel the need to bury their pain with so called pleasures, but to make blanket statements like that is childish and naive.
Readynow: If simply hearing the words “yiddishkeit is THE BEST” would stop Jews from going OTD, there wouldn’t be any OTD’ers in the first place. I believe the problem is the OPPOSITE. Intellectual Jewish children are being propagandized from birth by uneducated teachers about how great Judiasm is, without explaining to them the whys and hows. These children, as they progress into adulthood feel like their religion has all the same qualities of all the religions they’re supposed to denounce.
Wild and hyper active kids go off for different reasons, most probably because no one in the education system has the time and patience for them. At least where I came from, the motto was always, “If you don’t like it, LEAVE!”. There’s not enough competition, as the religious population keeps on expanding, there aren’t enough schools around to give the big ones competition. There’s nothing keeping such schools in line.
ready now: How many OTD people have you seen come back just because someone told them “Yiddishkeit is THE BEST!”?
How many people didn’t commit suicide because someone pleaded – yes simply pleaded – with them not to.
Many I’d bet.
Pleading works.
However much suicide is an “informed decision” that suicidal people “choose”, going OTD too is a so-called informed decision that is chosen.
Good afternoon all,
Several responses to all of you. First of all, I have never “done drugs”, I have never “partied” nor have I drank heavily, or lived a lifestyle such as that. I did not choose to become frei in order to live an immoral lifestyle. I never did, nor do I act in an immoral fashion, I don’t run around, nor act in a promiscuous fashion. I was raised in a neglectful home, and essentially was treated differently than my siblings, but that is not why I went frei. I still have respect for my family, and respect their choices, though they have little to none for mine, and that is their prerogative. I do not hate nor resent them, and before my father died, I forgave him, though I am sure he passed hating me, I will never know, and frankly, it’s sad, but I made my peace with his indifference towards me long ago.
I am the only successful member of my family. I have an education (Ph.d) and a successful career, both of which I acheived on my own, and live quite well, in spite of the many hateful emails I am still receiving from the members of the “god fearing, religious, frum” members of the former community in which I used to live, telling me that I should just kill myself and make everyone happy (that’s one of the nicer ones), and in spite of the fact that it has been close to 3 years since I made my choice. I do not dress like a streetwalker, I do not look like a prostitute, nor do I dress like one. I make a point to dress with modesty, not because of religion, but because I prefer not to “show my wares” to everyone.
I will not give out my entire story, because again, had I wished to be continuously attacked, I would have stayed within the community that I had originally lived. Second of all, I did make the choice to become not frum. It was a choice, pure and simple, and one that I made with complete and total clarity after weighing all my options (not that I felt I had too many after years of abuse and neglect).
I would like I state with clarity however, that to compare someone becoming not frum and someone committing suicide are two completely different things. The American Psychological Society (of which I am a member) does not condone suicide because they feel that suicide, while debated amongst psychological professionals as ethical or otherwise, should be one’s choice only if it is a full informed decision. Since one is unable to make that determination because one is never aware of what actually occurs after death, one is physically or emotionally able to make a fully comprehensive informed decision about the finality of the decision of suicide.
Now, as to the remained of your questions: I read one comment about a menahelet making certain inappropriate comments to students that she removed from her school about them being scum and so on, well, I had that in my school, to students who were still in the school, primarily to students that were not amongst the wealthy and priviledged (or deemed intelligent enough). But that’s not the reason I chose to make the decision I did.
I will answer specific questions. BUT, because of how I was treated in other threads, and by other members in other threads, I will not tell my story, and I will not respond to one single member whom I feel is disrespectful or dismissive. I will not lower myself to their standards. And, by the way, to the one member who made the comment about going off the derech being an emotional decision rather than an informed one, I have to state, with clarity, that this is completely erronous. The decision I made was both INFORMED and EMOTIONAL. But, please don’t think for one second, that I did not think it through thoroughly. I was very well aware of what I was giving up. And I was well informed, both before and after, by everyone involved, through nasty telephone calls, hate mail, hate email, things thrown at my home, and other “messages”.
My view of yiddishkeit, is not that it is “the best”. Quite the opposite.
I was raised in a neglectful home
This played a part in your becoming a mechallel shabbos, even if you won’t admit as much.
I have an education (Ph.d)
This, too, played a big role in your disobeying Jewish law.
live quite well
Didn’t you write a long time ago (while still married) that you couldn’t afford basic necessities?
Second of all, I did make the choice to become not frum. It was a choice, pure and simple, and one that I made with complete and total clarity after weighing all my options
Did you weigh the fact that you will burn for it?
I would like I state with clarity however, that to compare someone becoming not frum and someone committing suicide are two completely different things. The American Psychological Society (of which I am a member) does not condone suicide because they feel that suicide, while debated amongst psychological professionals as ethical or otherwise, should be one’s choice only if it is a full informed decision. Since one is unable to make that determination because one is never aware of what actually occurs after death, one is physically or emotionally able to make a fully comprehensive informed decision about the finality of the decision of suicide.
And one is able to determine what hell is like in the afterlife?
Oh. And all, please ignore “vochindik”, who takes a perverse pleasure in following me from forum to forum harassing me. He is one of many reasons I will never return to Yiddishkeit. If I will burn in hell, I will at least have neighbors that I know well. Vochindik, your lease is signed, sealed and delivered.
Whoops, I guess I lowered myself. That won’t happen again.
vochindik: I don’t agree with your tone, especially directed at someone who is willing to be open to all of us.
Though, what you mention last “And one is able to determine what hell is like in the afterlife?” reminds me of Pascal’s famous Wager. His wager provides a logical reason for anyone to pursue a religion, whatever religion they believe to hold the most truth.
PuhLease: Still have the warm fuzzies for Joseph?
“I will never return to Yiddishkeit” doesn’t constitute “willing to be open”.
PuhLease:
I am sorry you don’t believe that yiddishkeit is the best. My guess is that when you weighed the pros and cons, your experience and logic led you to the conclusion that you would rather exercise other options. You probably do not believe in organized religion. You would probably answer that the thing that chased you away from frumkeit is the behavior and attitude of frum Jews. And you probably did not regularly have enjoyable shabbos seudos at home-maybe good food but probably not a lot of singing, understandable divrei torah and comraderie. How close am I?
Please note, while being frum is of utmost importance, it is heartwarming to hear that you still conduct yourself with the moidesty of a bas melech. I think we can all agree that people are imperfect. But the RBSO is perfect and he continues to love you. Stay connected.
Pulease
May I ask if you were brought up in a more charedi community perhaps Chassidic and if you were, do you think you might have a different view. Not all communities are against college for example. Not all communities are as restrictive as others.
Do you have any connection to organized religion, Do you ever attend services?
I am addressing the OTD people posting here, who feel their parents loved them:
Please tell me what is so enriching in your present life (if youre living moral lives and the “donts” of a frum life were not too much for you to bare, because youre living similarly now), that you knowingly are shortening your loving grieving parents’ lives?
And, BE HONEST, what do you miss about your Frum past? There has to be something, whether youre conscious of it and willing to admit it or not. BE HONEST.
After that, to eat kosher and say brochos the rest of the week and a person is not OTD anymore. It is EASY, and THE BEST.
After studying such a course one could claim compensation for the abuse inflicted on the neshama by the licensing body!
1. I have the “warm fuzzies” for anyone who is harassed in any of these forums, solely because they believe differently than the vast majority.
2. Willing to be open towards answering questions, does not mean willing to be open towards entertaining the idea of returning to frum judaism and dealing with the likes of closeminded *&^% like some of the people here.
3. Pizza Pizza, I am so sorry, but no, you’re so far off the mark. I was raised with delicious food, lots of d’vrei torah, lots of singing and so on.
4. I do not believe in organized religion and I do not attend any Jewish services at all at this time. The time may come when I might change my mind on that, but right now, that is not going to happen.
5. I was raised in a very “Yeshivish” but not chasidish community. It was not anti college, and not pro college. It just was. My reasons for making the decision to go where I went has more to do with the people involved in the religion (see above) than the religion itself.
6 @groisanachas:
I cannot respond fairly to your question, because I do not feel that my parents ever love/loved me.
I was a status symbol. Nothing more, nothing less.
Dear Puhlease- When I was in seminary, one of my rabbis gave me a piece of information i will NEVER forget. Don’t judge Judaism based off Jews. Jews can sometimes be “less than perfect” to say the least, but that shouldn’t reflect on the religion itself. There is a story of a survivor in a concentration camp who went OTD because he couldn’t believe that a man made people give him their meager potions of bread for one time use of his siddur. How could a Jew be so greedy? The survivor was reprimanded- do not look at the man who took the bread; look at all those who were willing to give up their bread to pray with a siddur. I would love to be in touch with you more if you’re open to it!
hey everybody I’ve been following this combo and I’d like to add my two cents….
students come to school and get told believe believe believe…you ask why…the first time you get raised eyebrows…the next you get called apikores… and it gets waaaay worse from there…you’re dictating to me an entire lifestyle and yet you won’t even explain why im doing it…to me it seems as if you dont even know half of the answers yourselves! and how is it that just because ur classified as a role model youre allowed to say absolutely whatever you want to anyone “lower” than you?!
don’t midoss count anymore or now it’s just reputation reputation?! what r we supposed to think??
In this community, Joseph is the majority (all by himself).
PuhLease,
“I cannot respond fairly to your question, because I do not feel that my parents ever love/loved me….I was a status symbol. Nothing more, nothing less”.
I feel for you.
Sometime parents innocently, or not so innocently, make terrible mistakes with child rearing.
Please, for the benefit of those of us raising children, tell us what you’ve seen that parents dont grasp are important to do and not to do, if they want to communicate to their children that they love them. Perhaps you can give us a list of must do-s, and a list of must not do-s.
If, as a result, you lead to even one child feeling more loved, that would be really beautiful and a great contribution to society.
I personally do not think women should go to shule because too much chatter and too many comparisons can eventuate, misunderstandings etc.
After studying such a course one could claim compensation for the abuse inflicted on the neshama by the licensing body!
I too have made the decision to no longer be religious.
I’ll put myself out there and open myself up to questions. I may not answer all of them, though.
PuhLease and aCookieJar:
After that, to eat kosher and say brochos the rest of the week and a person is not OTD anymore. It is EASY, and THE BEST.
I’d also like to add my comments to some of the previous posts here.
farrocks:
That being said, what everyone seems to be missing is who is truly the most responsible for the person going off the derech. And that, of course, is the person himself who went OTD.
You know nothing of the pain suffered by any of the individuals in question, or you would not be so quick to judge.
In addition, that statement helps nobody. Blaming the victim will not help you prevent others from leaving religion. The purpose here isn’t to blame the schools or the parents, it’s to understand what’s going wrong and to fix it.
He will face consequences down here
What consequences are there down here?
and, most importantly, he will face the music upstairs
Do I need to point out that this won’t scare anybody who is no longer religious?
ready now:
I’m not sure if you realize that you do not sound like you’re engaging in a dialogue, rather, it comes across as preaching. All the things you list as being “the best” are all things that I grew up with, and gave up. Clearly, we disagree on what the best things in life are.
PuhLease:
I’m sorry to hear how you were treated.
groisnaches:
that you knowingly are shortening your loving grieving parents’ lives
You can only live your life for somebody else for so long. At some point, you need to be true to yourself. And I’d hope that as a parent, that’s what you want for you child.
But let’s be honest – when somebody becomes frum, we don’t worry too much about whether their parents are grieving.
Ice cold and callous.
You go otd and don’t give a dang that you are killing your parents?
Wow.
a Cookie Jar,
By your response to those who are trying to help, I can see you are angry.
Do you want people to spur you on to further OTD, has v sholom?
Do you get satisfaction from rejecting well-meaning, heartfelt advice?
Wishing you a refuach shelema (get well soon).
Going OTD is not a logical response to mistreatment.
Pulease,
Please clarify somethings for me.
A few years ago, you said that you have a wife in this thread Yeshiva Delay – Children Sitting Bored For Week At Home . But above you wrote ” I do not dress like a streetwalker….”, implying that you are a female. What happened? Did the mods get confused or is that a shared account?
“I was a status symbol. Nothing more, nothing less.” Can you tell me more about that? I’d like to understand it better.
Ready now: I said “reason for anyone to pursue a religion, whatever religion they believe to hold the most truth.” which is not from non Jewish writings, but rather my own thoughts. It’s actually pretty logical. On the notion that there is a Jewish G-d, one must understand why someone would get punished and sent to Gehinom for not keeping the 7 Noachide laws.
If I was christian, muslim, or buddhist Ch’V, I would be able to say to at the Day of Judgement, that I did all that was supposed to do. I was a faithful X, Y or Z. Why should get I punished for keeping my religion 100% Lechumra? They would tell me Upstairs that that reason doesn’t help. I should’ve known that Judiasm is the #1 real religion, and that I would at least have to keep the 7 Noachide laws.
But I would complain again and say “How am I supposed to know that Judiasm is real, if I wasn’t born Jewish?” To which they would reply to me, “If you would’ve objectively seeked out the truth, you would have found Judiasm to be 100% authentic. The fact that you didn’t seek out the truth is what you are getting punished for.”
Therefore, it’s pretty logical to say, that if a christian, muslim, and buddhist would get punished for not seeking out the truth, the same obligation would apply to Jews too. For how can a Jew get rewarded for keeping a religion he was born into, without seeking the truth, while a christian, muslim, and buddhist get punished for doing the same exact thing!? Don’t we have a Benevolent G-d, Whom Judges every person fairly?
Therefore I am happy to say, that I am not a religious Jew because I was FFB, I am a religious Jew because I was proven beyond a shadow of doubt that it is much truer than any other religion can hope to be. My belief in G-d doesn’t come into play until it comes to the things that I cannot logically understand, (such as the 4 Questions that one may not ask); though after seeing that 99% of Judiasm is proven true, I can believe that the rest is true too. Staying religious based on plain Emunah Pshuta without any proofs that Judiasm is authentic, IS DEFINITELY KEFIRA.
(Note: these thoughts only explain why I pick Judiasm over other religions; I would use Pascal’s Wager among other things to push away atheism.)
PuhLease: Are you an atheist or an anti-religionist? You come off sounding as the latter. I ask because it seems hard to push away Judiasm with an informed decision, if you aren’t an atheist, because after all, you either believe in religion or believe in atheism. And if you’re agnostic, it would seem to me that it’s not an informed decision, rather it is doubts as to what your decision should be.
ACookieJar, I am also interested in hearing your beliefs too.
Pascal’s Wager is inherently flawed for a few reasons.
1. Belief in God is not based on a wager. You can live as a religious person and go through the motions, but doing it because of the wager is not true belief in God. If belief is required, not just the practices, it wouldn’t work.
2. The Wager works if the only thing required was belief in a God. However, there are many different religions, and many are mutually exclusive. If you really don’t know what is true and what isn’t, how could you pick a religion? If you pick Judaism, the Christians believe you’re doomed forever because you don’t accept Jesus. If you pick Christianity, the Jews believe you’re in trouble because you do accept Jesus. Multiple religions throws off the while premise of the wager. It only works when there is one belief that works across the board.
MDG: In that very same post you reference, PuhLease also wrote:
“My wife and I could not afford camp. Right now, we cannot afford more than the bare minimum of groceries”
Yet, above, she writes she has a Ph.D, a successful career and “lives quite well”. So in the span of 3 years, he/she went from a poor married man to a rich single girl. I say this is all a put on.
PL: I don’t participate in any forums other than here on yeshivaworld. Please don’t be so paranoid.
vochindik: PuhLease wrote in another thread that she used to share the account with her husband. She is now divorced. An is it so hard to believe that a woman with a good education won’t be successful when she’s married to an abusive husband, but that once divorced, she’d become successful? Hashem can change someone’s financial situation in a second. Why is it so hard to believe that it changed for PuhLease over 3 years?
To Clarify:
Which I am happy to do (by the way). My ex husband and I shared a yeshivaworld account. When we were married, he posted here, and we could not afford basic necessities. He spent all day online, did not look for work, chose not to in fact, and he drank, a lot. All the money that we had, from me working, went towards my schooling, our yeshiva tuition for our children, and his drinking binges.
NOW, I am divorced, I have finished my education, and yes, I live well, and I have changed the password on this account, and it is mine. If he wants an account, he can figure out how to get one on his own.
In terms of me being a status symbol, it is exactly as it sounds. My family saw me as a status symbol, not as a child. When I did something right, they took the credit for it. When not, they threw me in the trash, as they saw I belonged (Vochindik, feel free to add your comment here, I am sure you will anyhow).
No, I am not a troll, no, the Moderators are not confused. I am now divorced, I do not drink, nor do I do drugs. The money that I have is either invested (well) or I spend it on my children. I live well because I don’t waste like my ex did. I cannot, nor will I take responsibility for the posts that he put up. I also will not apologize for what he wrote. I can’t.
iced:
What advice would you give to a non-religious jew considering becoming religious, if his/her parents are staunchly anti-religious? Would you worry about “killing” parents then?
ready now:
By your response to those who are trying to help
Trying to help whom? I joined this conversation because reallynow asked for input. I’m not here to get “helped”. I’m not angry, nor am I rejecting any advice, simply having a conversation.
uneeq:
Staying religious based on plain Emunah Pshuta without any proofs that Judiasm is authentic, IS DEFINITELY KEFIRA
I wholeheartedly agree with you on this. Kudos to you for making the effort to prove it to yourself and not just going with the flow.
I am also interested in hearing your beliefs
Beliefs about what specifically?
PuhLease,
Stay healthy.
Im not worried for you or any other OTD individual.
Theres the present and then there are future generations.
Chut Hameshulash Lo Bimhaira Yenatek.
aCookieJar: Reminding folks that there will be hell to pay for going OTD is certainly worthwhile. First of all, the person him/herself may have gone OTD even though they still believe in G-d. In which case he/she can still recognize there is reward and punishment when one comes upstairs after 120. Second of all, even if the person went south and doesn’t believe in G-d, G-d forbid, reminding that he/she will be punished is still a deterrent for others who may have otherwise been enticed to go OTD but who hear the message that there will be hell to pay if they do.
aCookieJar: Why did you reject Judiasm and why did you embrace whatever you have embraced?
DaMoshe: a) I agree belief in G-d cannot be based on Pascal’s Wager. Though I understand that the opposite -someone’s belief in atheism- can be torn down (albeit not completely) using a simple logical wager, a wager that forces one to objectively consider the possibility of a G-d.
b) I agree that Pascal’s Wager does not come into play when deciding a religion. I specifically wrote in my post above that it gives a logical reason to pursue ANY religion. It won’t provide you with belief; it’ll provide you with tools that will help you believe something in the future. I wrote about this at length above. There are many other proofs, probably better ones. Though I feel that bringing up Pascal’s Wager would help reveal intellectual dishonesty in a discussion such as this.
Everyone has a place to be in life . There are some things people are good at and other things they are bad at.
I can tell you from some of the responses, some people need to stay as far away from Kiruv as possible, they are doing more harm than good.
You are not correct in what you said about (your words above)
Teachers who teach English literature and people who quote or reference goyish words really a part of the OTD problem.
DaMoshe and Uneeq – please do not mention by name other religions- it is extremely not good.
It is all kefira – our thoughts should not even go there.
You cannot expect to on this post to prevent anyone from giving good advice.
ZD- Your simple line is “You’re OTD? Sorry and I just want to keep feeling sorry and feeling sorry (without helping).”
Just a thought.. by the way.
Any one person who does not follow EXACTLY as their parents, and their parents before them, and their parents before them, and their parents before them, etc., have ALL gone “off the derech” so to speak.
Additionally, unless each and every one of you know the exact specific details of why an individual has gone frei, secular, irreligious atheist or otherwise, it is certainly not your place to determine whether or not one is going to hell.
Some of us have lived in hell most of our “religious” lives.
And, to answer a question that I erronously did not respond to earlier, I have great faith in God, just none in people. Having read a majority of the forums on this website, I am sure that many of you can garner a small glimpse into why. I am not an atheist, just not religious.
By the way, there are a great many “frum” psychotherapists. I put “frum” in quotations because I do not believe that any one person is still living exactly k’halacha. Some of our sins may be more obvious than others, but none of us can state with clarity that we live exactly as we should. And before any of you deny this, read the posts that call others’ on here names, state that they are going to burn, harass others, or speak lashon horah. Perhaps some of you choose not to follow a certain tradition, mayhaps did something that not have asked forgiveness for it, did not pray with enough concentration once, or so on, cheated the government on taxes or perhaps took food stamps, medicaid or other benefits when one was certainly not entitled to them because one could have worked, but chose not to, did not take care of their body, smoked (which could be looked at as a slow form of suicide?), did not give their 10% of all income every time, did not pay their taxes,took money under the table, cheated or mistreated another Jew, embarassed someone, did something without asking rabinnical counsel (and the Yeshiva World is NOT rabinnical counsel), was disrespectful to a child, did not always act “al kiddush hashem”…need I go on?
I said that I would be open to answering questions, what I will not do, is justify my actions to the likes of individuals on here who will attempt, poorly, to shame me into pretending to feel bad for the lifestyle that I have chosen.
I do not feel shame nor regret. I have never in my life hit another, certainly not in anger. But not a single member of my immediate family, including my decesased father, could have said that, and that includes my ex husband, who beat me, and continues to lay hands on my children in anger. That, is not what Torah intended. And, for a “rav” to state with clarity that I may have done something to “deserve” that, is also completely uncalled for, and does not deserve the title that his smicha paper is written on.
Just a thought.
PuhLease
“and that includes my ex husband, who beat me, and continues to lay hands on my children in anger…….And, for a “rav” to state with clarity that I may have done something to “deserve” that, is also completely uncalled for, and does not deserve the title that his smicha paper is written on”.
No one can deny that!!! I think most would agree with you.
But, for every “Rav” like that, there are many who are totally different.
ready now: I did not take the time to read your post fully before posting. I saw you ranting and raving for a couple of paragraphs about how I am postings thoughts from a non Jewish source. I didn’t mention ANYWHERE that those thought weren’t my own. I DID specifically state that my thoughts were NOT from non Jewish writings. NO non Jewish references, quotes, paraphrahing, whatchamacallits, NOTHING!
Not like it makes a difference if I did.
Get over it.
If you would like to call me a Kofer, go ahead.
PuhLease: You state that you have great faith in G-d, just none in his people. (thanks for answering my question BTW) Does that make your current position of “unreligious” in transit? Having faith in G-d requires more than just saying that G-d is great; it requires a tremendous amount of energy into keeping His mitzvos. It seems to me that you would return to religion right now if you had two things:
a) a loving community
b) the right amount of time to ease your pain from being abused the first time around
You and I both know that not all Jews are corrupt, hate mongering, zealots. There are plenty of good acts that Jews do unwarranted that you would not find in the rest of the world. Chaverim, Hatzalah, Shomrim, a million Gemachs etc. It will definitely be hard to accept this after being abused emotionally (and physically) from the many that you know. Yes, I know that many Jews have faults, though we do live in a low generation where Right may be perceived as Wrong and vice versa.
If you do have any sort of plan of “starting over”, I would suggest you take each step slowly, as to not overwhelm yourself.
I am sorry in advance if my post is disrespectful.
@groisnachas
Thank you for that.
Sometimes I wish I still had some faith in people left. Unfortunately, the rabbonim of which you speak must live in some other cities, because the ones in the cities in which I dealt with were worth nothing.
And, for the kindness with which you are treating me, may YOU have much nachas from those around you.
@ready now: What makes your advice “good” versus “bad”? Is your advice good because you’re the one giving it? I joined in this conversation for the same reason that the other poster did; in order to give input that was asked for, not for advice, and not for other reasons. I’ve given good and bad advice. I’ve been the receipient of good and bad advice, but I would never say that my advice is good simply because I am the one giving it. Narcissistic much?
If one chooses to name other reigions by name, they will. If you don’t like it, don’t read it. That’s a choice that you are more than welcome to make, just as we all have choices. There are choices in every day life that people make, and my firm and strong belief is that the heavy criticism that extra narrow minded judgemental and even hypocrtical individuals such as (insert name here) push people such as myself, further away.
I’ve made mention of Faranuk Margolis’ book before, it’s a supreme read, and quite on the mark, but I will go ahead and mention it again. I suggest for any of you that are really curious, as opposed to those of you that are merely here to “lovingly” inform those of us that have made our choices, that we are going to hell,to read this book. It will open your eyes.
PuhLease said:
“By the way, there are a great many “frum” psychotherapists. I put “frum” in quotations because I do not believe that any one person is still living exactly k’halacha.”
No one is perfect; we are all human. As it says in Avot, “hacol l’fi rov hamaaseh” – according to the preponderance. The understanding is that are all imperfect, so we are judged on the majority, rov.
“Some of our sins may be more obvious than others, but none of us can state with clarity that we live exactly as we should.”
I once had a conversation with Rabbi Twerski about how addicts justify substance abuse, and he said to me that we are no different than them. They have their bad habits that they justify and we have ours. Theirs are more obvious though.
PuhLease, I see you as saying that “no one is perfect, so why should I care”. You seem that you are showing some anger and scorn. If I’m wrong feel free to tell me. If I’m right, it seems to me that you may need to work out some issues. I can understand why you could still feel resentment. You describe a neglectful childhood in which your parents devalued you as a person. To make matters worse, you were in an abusive marriage where the tyrant claimed divine right.
I might be going out on a limb here, but it seems to me that you are rather self-critical. It seems natural considering how it seems that you have not been shown much real love, but instead lots of judgement. I may be thinking of that because I used to “beat myself up” as a psychologist once told me.
Anyway, it’s late and I know that my thoughts may be disjointed. I want to apologize if I say anything offensive to you in this conversation. Thank you for answering my questions above. I look forward to hearing more from you (and not from vochindik).
vochindik, if you are reading this, remember that silence is golden and duct tape is silver. If you don’t have the will power to communicate like a mentch, consider the duct tape.
PuhLease: Clearly, when the term “OTD” is used, it is referring to leaving the derech of Hashem and his Torah. Not merely or necessarily the derech of ones parents. That being said, it certainly can be said that someone who was frum and knows of the Torah will pay a very heavy price for leaving the derech of the Torah and becoming a Mechallel Shabbos and treif-eater.
uneeq:
Why did you reject Judiasm
Because Judaism was the source of much pain in my life. I guess for some (or many?) people learning, davening, shabbos, kosher, etc. is a source of pleasure, but for me, it wasn’t.
In addition, I have been learning more about history and science, and the more I learned the less plausible religion seemed. I finally left when I stopped believing.
why did you embrace whatever you have embraced
I didn’t embrace anything in its place.
Regarding your point about Pascal’s Wager. I am not a betting man. I will live my life being true to myself, and take my chances.
ready now:
Teachers who teach English literature and people who quote or reference goyish words really a part of the OTD problem
No, the exact opposite. People who truly believe that statement are part of the OTD problem.
then you find fault with my good advice
I didn’t find fault with any of your advice, rather I pointed out that this thread was not about trying to help those who are “OTD”. I opened myself up to questions, not to being “helped”. I can see PuhLease feels the same way.
PuhLease:
it is certainly not your place to determine whether or not one is going to hell
According to some here, it is unequivocal. If you aren’t “frum” (as determined by them, of course) you will burn in hell. And that’s final. The circumstances simply don’t matter.
Bad “Help” is worse than no help
acookiejar: Following G-d’s orders, as described in the Torah, is mandatory even it is not “pleasurable”. It is mandatory even if it is “painful”.
I simply could not agree more. I come to this site to “Stay Connected”.
I am not sure why I keep coming back. I must have a sadomasochistic streak, because the more I come here, the less I have the urge to return to “the fold”.
I am denying to acquiesce with your position regarding your statement paying a heavy price for those that are OTD (in the yeshivish world of that particular definition).
So tell me, whose sins are worse?
Again, I am opening myself up for questions. If you would like to know, ask, but I will do my best not to lower myself to hypocrites and vendettas, and I will attempt to not respond to stupidities.
If you have nothing constructive to say or ask, than say nothing at all.
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