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There are a lot of people that are questioning yiddishkeit, going off the derech completely, or living a double life–they pretend they are frum in public but are really not frum. There are programs for at-risk teens, which is great, but shouldnt we have preventive measures in place for children before they become “at-risk” teenagers? Is there anything that the community can do do so that the programs that cater to this demographic should no longer be required?
Parents of OTD children: if you are willing to be open about it-why did you son/daughter off the derech? what do you think can be done to prevent this phenomenon from continuing?
OTDer’s: if you are willing to be open about it-why did you go off the derech? And what do you think could be done to prevent others from doing so?
This thread is meant to be used as a support system for parents who have been inflicted with this terrible nisayon. I am hoping that if we open a dialogue between parents of otder’s and otder’s themselves, we may be able to come up with ideas to incorporate preventive measures to the OTD phenomenon.
Nice questions and ideas. But that process has been going on for many years now, almost 20 years in my calculation. There’s a problem with pursuing this. If you ask anyone who is in chinuch or connected to it, the answer is “Blame the dysfunctional families.” If you ask those parents who are not connected to chinuch, they blame the yeshivos and schools. While both are correct, both are also wrong. Each situation is different, and there are many factors that combine in each case. It is rare that there are not family issues in each case, and the yeshivos are dishonest when they claim total innocence. I have had many, many encounters with OTD kids and their families, and the notion of the innocent yeshiva is complete fiction. But they are not always the main issue.
If this thread gets many comments, I will read them with interest for possible chiddushim. Otherwise, I expect the same debates that have appeared in other threads on this subject. Ho hum.
reallynow-I find it interesting that one of the posters who was accusatory and critical of a parent of an OTD child, would be so quick to start their own thread on the same subject.
Posters, beware
There is no NEW OTD phenomenom, People have been going OTD for centuries, Conversions , The Haskallah, The Reform movement Chassidism (Dont forget the Vilna Gaon excommunicated Chassidim) emigration to america etc.
The only differnce now is one you are not intersted as are most of figuring out what to do, The only goal today of such discusssions is to “prove” whatever you thought was the reason “IS” the reason Like “See it was the Internet” , “See it was movies”.
The reality is today religion in general is on the decline. 30% of Americans do not belong to an organized religion. Its not just judaism, Its christianity as well. You think you know alot of OTD’ers. Look at the Catholic church. Most Catholics today are “OTD”. And this is in America. In Europe its even higher, even in catholic countries like Ireland and Italy.
The little I know–There’s a problem with pursuing this. If you ask anyone who is in chinuch or connected to it, the answer is “Blame the dysfunctional families.” If you ask those parents who are not connected to chinuch, they blame the yeshivos and schools.
Why dont we ask the people who are off the derech and see what they say?
Zahavasdad–The reality is today religion in general is on the decline. 30% of Americans do not belong to an organized religion. Its not just judaism, Its christianity as well. You think you know alot of OTD’ers. Look at the Catholic church. Most Catholics today are “OTD”. And this is in America. In Europe its even higher, even in catholic countries like Ireland and Italy.
So if it normal that people leave religions and/or are not religious, then why are the jewish otder’s referred to as sick, mentally ill, crazy etc. Some communities will even ostracize these individuals and fire them from their jobs, or make them give up custody and/or visitation rights of their children… If the otder’s are doing nothing wrong by not being religious (since its the norm in america and in other countries) and they are not mentally ill then why are they treated this way?
I agree that there is not necessarily a phenomenon, because people have been going off the derech as long as there has been that option. It’s not a coincidence that with expanding freedoms came mass “shmad”, e.g. with German emancipation, immigration to America, the rise of communism, etc.
The advantage of seeing it as a phenomenon is when it calls attention to certain problems that cause individuals to go off the derech, such as abuse, poor representations of frumkeit, bad parenting, and other such things.
But it’s a disadvantage when people think that the litmus test in determining whether things are proper is whether they will send people off the derech. It’s wrong to hit people, whether it makes them go OTD or not. It’s wrong to espouse certain extreme views of Yiddishkeit, whether it makes people go OTD or not. Those things are wrong to the people who stay frum and the people who don’t, equally.
My thoughts: I don’t know kids going off. I do however see observence levels slipping and hemlines rising. And I have a hunch why: we live in second/third generation Judaism. Religion is becoming more institutionalized and set from day to day. I know many “nisht of Shabbos geredt” yidden. Their commitment is skin-deep and unauthentic. And their kids pick it up. They know that you need to talk a good talk, but in practice you can cut corners, cheat and tune out. And nothing can affect them, because they say to themselves “Sure, sounds nice, but its all just talk, right?”
They need to see mesirus nefesh, that is the only thing that will get through to them, I think.
If there is any OTD phenomenon, the only major one I noticed is that the OTD girls in Lakewood (and maybe other places) are A LOT worse than the OTD ones from not so long ago. The last time I was around OTD’ers was around 7 years ago and the OTD’ers were way better off. I am shocked to see DOZENS of girls, many of them I couldn’t believe were Jewish until my wife said so. When did breaking Shabbos and other massive sins become so common to anyone with the slightest twitch of rebelliousness inside of them?
Anyone care to explain?
Most people here are assuming one of two things (or a combination thereof):
1) The parents are to blame for the child going off the derech
or
2) The school is responsible for the child going off the derech
Obviously, there are many variables and it differs from person to person. Nevertheless, between those two possibilities, I would venture to say that the parents tend to bear more responsibility for the problem than the school. The parents are responsible for their child 24/7. The parents are in charge and with their child more hours per year than the school.
That being said, what everyone seems to be missing is who is truly the most responsible for the person going off the derech. And that, of course, is the person himself who went OTD. Yes, he is most responsible for his bad actions. Yes, he is the one who will face the direst consequences for his terrible decisions. He will face consequences down here; and, most importantly, he will face the music upstairs.
I will try to explain the Charedi position on that.
Charedim cannot fathom that people would want to leave, They cannot understand why boys dont like Gemorah or women dont like Tzniut or Tahrat Mishpacha. They cannot understand why someone would rather text their friends on Shabbos than sing Zimrot.
Since everyone loves these things, and if you dont their only reason you are mentally ill. The reason they exile the OTDer is because they cannot handle the situation. They know no other way and if someone goes a differnet way “YOu must be mentally ill”.
Its very unfortunate the OTDers are cast that way. It doesnt help the situation and really makes it worse.
“Veltz Meshugener” – please agree that the following type of attitude, a lack of respect of Yiddiskeit, is the predominent cause of OTD-“going off the derech”:
“Probably the biggest benefit to reading is expanding your horizons and encountering new ways to think of things” -your words from another thread in the coffee room.
Jewish horizons are “state of the art” there is none better.
The goyim have some chochma, mostly technology and similar, but the seven pillars of wisdom are still Torah which INCLUDES all wisdom including that of the goyim.
The misguided attitude of investing customs and behaviours from the goyim with importance leads to a perception in the OTD person that he or she is climbing a ladder, when in fact they are descending the ladder and at a very rapid rate, has v shalom.
Why then glorify that which is not glorious? The Torah says what is forbidden, and reading “most secular literature” is one of the things that are forbidden. “Forbidden” is just another word to say something is on par with a toxic substance, which can affect the body AND the mind. Give it up.
Hunny:
No one will rely on asking the OTD kid. Several reasons.
1. Who says the answers are reliable?
2. The OTD kid is at least partly rebellious. That anger will likely cloud the judgment, and the real answer may be impossible to reach.
3. The real issues are multiple even for a single case.
While this issue remains one of hot discussion, the notion that there is a single factor that is the “answer” is fantasy.
lebedik yankel:
You raise a powerful point, and this has been echoed by many in the fields of rabbonus, mental health. It is also addressed in many of the recent publications and magazines. One label is “adults at risk”. There is a superficial pattern to today’s Yiddishkeit that is truly alarming. It may not be the talking in shul, but the lack of respect felt for tefila. That is unquestionably epidemic and well deserves major intervention. To whom will we listen when we are told that our avodas Hashem is a masquerade?
“Veltz Meshugener” – please agree that the following type of attitude, a lack of respect of Yiddiskeit, is the predominent cause of OTD-“going off the derech”:
“Probably the biggest benefit to reading is expanding your horizons and encountering new ways to think of things” -your words from another thread in the coffee room.
No. First of all, the statement said nothing about how I feel about expanding horizons, it simply said that that is the purpose of literature. If you think that expanding horizons in antithetical to yiddishkeit, then it follows that you shouldn’t read literature, not that you should find literature that doesn’t expand your horizons. As it happens, I do think that expanding horizons is important, and I don’t think expanding horizons is antithetical to yiddishkeit. But the statement leaves open the possibility that expanding horizons is antithetical to yiddishkeit and should be avoided.
Jewish horizons are “state of the art” there is none better.
The goyim have some chochma, mostly technology and similar, but the seven pillars of wisdom are still Torah which INCLUDES all wisdom including that of the goyim. I don’t know what you mean by “state of the art”. Do you know of viewpoints outside of your own through Torah? Are you implying that your viewpoints encompass Torah and Torah encompasses your viewpoints, and that nothing outside of either is worthwhile? Then don’t bother with outside literature. I don’t believe that I know everything, and i don’t believe that I personally will be able to gain all of my potential knowledge from Torah, so for me, outside literature is important. And if I chose to avoid outside information, then of what significance is my adherence to Torah? It would be ignorance, not knowledge, that defined my adherence.
Why then glorify that which is not glorious? The Torah says what is forbidden, and reading “most secular literature” is one of the things that are forbidden. “Forbidden” is just another word to say something is on par with a toxic substance, which can affect the body AND the mind. Give it up.
I don’t know where you see the Torah say that most secular literature is forbidden. The only way I can possibly understand what you’re saying is if you include the statements of certain gedolim against general outside literature as Torah, and exclude the statements of other gedolim permitting it from your definition of Torah. But that’s a conclusory statement – it defines Torah based on what you want the Torah to be.
While it may be compelling to blame people going OTD on secular influence, that is like saying that you know the cause for the plane crash – gravity. Yes, when people go off the derech, by definition they are more caught up in secular influences. But why did that plane succumb to the forces of gravity under those circumstances? Why do particular people born into frumkeit succumb to the lure of total secularity more than other similarly situated people? For that, the answer needs to come from some cause external to the effect. And many people suggest that it is factors such as abuse, chillul Hashem, and so on.
Write or Wrong–“reallynow-I find it interesting that one of the posters who was accusatory and critical of a parent of an OTD child, would be so quick to start their own thread on the same subject”
I find it interesting that a mother who is so desperately looking for a zechus/refuah/yeshuah for her otd son, would be so willing to speak loshon hara on another poster…
ana mia-it was l’toeles
“No one will rely on asking the OTD kid. Several reasons.
1. Who says the answers are reliable?
2. The OTD kid is at least partly rebellious. That anger will likely cloud the judgment, and the real answer may be impossible to reach.
3. The real issues are multiple even for a single case.”
Who else would you ask?
It’s like the joke about the little kid who never spoke (despite experts and therapist, etc). One day, at the dinner table, he said ‘the soup is too hot’. When asked why he had never spoken before, he said ‘the soup was never too hot before’.
I will explain the obvious point. Only someone who is doing something knows why he/she is doing it.
You can analyze the person’s answers, and, in context of the person, his/her environment, and what he/she says, you have a chance of figuring something out.
However, if you’re not going to engage and discuss, but rather sit in an ivory tower and attempt to judge from up high, you may as well pack your bags in terms of any practical implications.
eye-roll, sigh.
I am OTD. I would be happy to respond to questions as to why, as an adult (and yes, I am an adult, and did not go OTD until I was well into adulthood) I chose to become not frum (yes, it was a choice).
But, the only way I would do so, is if I was not attacked here. And since I doubt that this would happen, since I often see the moderators allowing many posts that allow these attacks to take place, I am not sure that my input would matter.
my kid would have no problem explaining. I think many OTD kids have much to say on the matter.
“PuhLease”- please come back on the derech! We need you. You know Yiddishkeit is THE BEST. Wishing you strenght for this very onerous test, to overcome it.
Even though PuhLease says she is OTD, I don’t think it is right to allow her to publicly violate Shabbos right here in the coffee room by posting her comments made on Shabbos. (Per the timestamp, it was Shabbos at the time of the post in America, Europe and Israel. And she previously indicated she lives in the US.)
Sorry, I didn’t pay attention to the time.
dolphina:
I have these discussions with OTD kids all the time. I am not against asking them. I’m just saying that to assess to overall phenomenon, which is the aim of this thread, it is not a likely souce to get the information you really need. The input of each OTD kid is valuable, but it is not necessarily definitive. If the kid will vent his anger about the issue of the day for him/her, you will miss the other contributing factors.
Being mechallel shabbos is the least of these kids’ problems. Mmany of them are hedonists and truly damaged and aching neshamos, drowning themselves in the evils of alcoholism, drug abuse, and rampant promiscuity. Just ask R’ Herbst or any other rabbonim who work with these kids. It is heartbreaking, but the truth is that one can be non-observant but moral. These kids are simply immoral, as they engage in illegal and self-injurious behaviors which make a huge chillul hashem and are a shanda fun der goyim. The community on the whole needs to stop coddling and lauding thieves, crooks, swindlers, menuvals, and pedophiles, whose heinous acts are largely to blame for the OTD phenomenon in the first place.
Most OTD’ers are probably “chased away” Ive seen their stories and they have been chased away (although via differnt ways) and I find it ironic that after they have been chased away people beg for them to come back.
You dont chase someone away and expect them to come back too easily
Rebdoniel:
You are correct in viewing your list of criminals and victimizers as major contributors to the OTD problem. If it busts anybody’s bubble, tough, but one major location of these victimizers is our yeshivos and schools.
Zahavasdad:
The people who “chased away” the OTD kids are NOT the ones looking to bring them back. The ones seeking their return are the families, and the select few askanim who realize the turmoil into which these precious neshamos have been thrust. Our mainstream leaders are full of denial and completely blind to the neshamos of these children. They have turned a deaf ear to their cries. They will immorally defend the yeshivos for the persistent rejections imposed on these kids, and there is no yeshiva or community leader that will stand up to insist that the rejection and abusiveness (emotional and physical) must stop.
Our community periodically gets leaflets and posters bearing the messages that anyone with “secular” or professional background must be prevented from contributing expertise to assist in modifying chinuch to cope with the current times. These same pashkivilim also place an issur against sending a frum child for therapy to professionals, even those who are frum and yirai shomayim. There are many signatures on these pashkivilim, and I find them personally nauseating and destructive. But many among our leaders are still living in the fantasy world in which our chinuch does nothing wrong and has no responsibility for the holocaust of our young.
PuhLease,
PuhLease tell us your story. I have no contempt, nor will I have any.
Repeating an important message – “PuhLease”- please come back on the derech! We need you. You know Yiddishkeit is THE BEST. Wishing you strength for this very onerous test, to overcome it.
Begging you.
ready now: Obviously, PuhLease does NOT think that “Yiddishkeit is THE BEST.”
I’m just wondering, did you honestly think, “You know, here’s this person who, as an adult, made an informed decision not to be frum. I’m just going to write “Yiddishkeit is THE BEST.” and that will make them want to be frum again”?
DaMoshe: How, then, is advertising so succesful? The vast majority of ads are simply “we are THE BEST”. And it works. Companies spend multi-trillion dollars a year in advertising. And people buy it.
shlishi: It’s about brand recognition. When you’re in a store and you don’t know which brand to buy, your brain remembers the names you’ve heard before, and you lean towards buying those brands.
Let’s say you tried a brand of ketchup. Let’s call it ABC Ketchup. You used it, and found that it tasted horrible. You decide not to buy it again, because you find it disgusting. If you hear a radio ad saying “ABC Ketchup is the best!”, will that make you want to try it again? Probably not. Now, if you heard an ad saying, “Heinz Ketchup is the best!”, you might try it, because you’re looking for a new brand to try.
In PuhLease’s case, she (he?) already tried Judaism, and for some reason found it lacking. Telling her “It’s the best!” is not going to change her opinion.
In my ketchup example, how would ABC Ketchup get the customer back? Maybe by giving a small free sample to the customer, saying, “Your bottle must have been bad. Here, try this sample, and you’ll see that our Ketchup really is delicious!”
We need to show OTD people that Judaism is delicious. Not just through words, but through actions, so they can actually “taste” it for themselves, to see that their first impression was wrong.
Unfortunately, much of the content here in the CR will only deliver the message that their initial thoughts were correct.
I would love to hear the story.
It would help dispel the notion that being OTD is only for losers/pleasure seekers.
The little I know:
“Our mainstream leaders are full of denial and completely blind to the neshamos of these children. They have turned a deaf ear to their cries. They will immorally defend the yeshivos for the persistent rejections imposed on these kids, and there is no yeshiva or community leader that will stand up to insist that the rejection and abusiveness (emotional and physical) must stop”.
How right you are!
I know of one principal of a girls High School in BP, who when he expels a girl, tells her that she is the lowest scum of the earth and that no one can be lower than her, and even public schools wouldnt want her and she should be on medication.
All this from someone who should be a role model. He’s the ideal recipe for kindling interest in Frumkeit. Many people, Rabbonim and Askonim included, are aware of this principal’s behavior and do nothing. No one has been forceful enough to see that this principal begs Mechila from the students he has done this to.
I wonder if boys schools have similar “role models”.
Theres one advantage to this sitch. Said principal is in his seventies and hopefully will retire soon, one way or another.
Theres one disadvantage to this sitch. Unless we take seriously the despicable behavior of principals and the effects, we will have many other young principals who savor the power to rebuke in this style and cause more damage than benefit to these Neshamas.
What do you think should be done with principals like those?
So you say to yourselves, who knows what prompted this principal’s reaction, the principal is human and therefore capable of making mistakes.
This mistake is too far-reaching and long lasting to allow it to recur.
most young people who go off the derech were never on the derech to begin with. they just dropped the externalities and stopped pretending.
groisnaches:
Thanks for the kudos.
I did not intend for my comment to begin a bash party against chinuch, though I might consider joining one if it would happen. There is a far greater importance to seeking the voices that will defend and protect our children against the stupid ideas that our schools have developed of “discipline”. The preoccupation of insuring compliance with standards, many of which are arbitrary, has overtaken the minds and energies of our best mosdos. This leaves true Torah chinuch far in the background. Our children are expected to mold as pliable robots to mechanically produce tests that have the spit-back information from classes. The role models from whom we can learn midos tovos, mesiras nefesh, and the emotional experiences of avodas Hashem and yir’as Hashem are nowhere to be found. There are such people, but the yeshivos expect us to emulate the very individuals who engage in so much rejection and push our precious youth to the street.
Again, I don’t seek to denounce. I hope that some of the commenters here in CR can share ideas on how to fix the system. We have big leaks, losing too many children. How can we plug the leaks?
Start your own yeshivos and mosdos.
PuhLease said:
“But, the only way I would do so, is if I was not attacked here. And since I doubt that this would happen, …”
If anyone has not noticed, she has been judged several times already and she has not even told us a thing about her life. Pay close attention to what has been said to her and about her.
The little I know:
“We have big leaks, losing too many children. How can we plug the leaks?”
Plug the leaks for sure, a crucial part of which would be to eliminate those in Chinuch, who clearly crush whatever is left of some kids’ self esteem, even if these Chinuch “professionals” do good for others at the same time.
How would you, and most, react to being told by a person in a position of power, in very loud tones, for all nearby to hear, that you’re the lowest scum of the earth and that no one can be lower than you, and even public schools wouldnt want you and you should be on medication (all for NOT the most serious offenses by anyone’s standards)?
I believe it would stay deeply embedded in your heart for life and seriously eliminate any chance EVER for love of Yiddishkeit.
If we allow this to continue, we truly deserve what we get.
Are there any statistics on percent of “off the derech”, and how do you define “off the derech”?
If I wear a fedora or a homburg, and my son wears a knit yarmulke, is he off the derech? If someone isn’t going to work on Shabbos, eating pork, and marrying a non-Jew, are they really off the derech? A frum juvenile delinquent is still frum. In the past, most orthodox synagogues in America had trouble finding a minyan of Shomer Shabbos, and parents routinely were asking how to act when eating in their children’s home (as in “is it okay to drink water in a glass cup?”) – and you don’t see that any more.
“most young people who go off the derech were never on the derech to begin with. they just dropped the externalities and stopped pretending.”
Wasn’t my case. I tried it, really gave it my all, and I loved it. It was the people (not chas veshalom the religion) who made me feel disgusting keeping the same religion as them
OTD Off the Derech
Can also stand for…
OTD Of the Day
OTD Out The Door
OTD Office of Technology Development
OTD On the Door
OTD Doctor of Occupational Therapy
OTD On Time Delivery
OTD Overseas Trained Doctor
OTD Observed Time Difference
OTD Optical Transient Detector
OTD Order-To-Delivery
OTD Occupational Therapy Doctorate
OTD Open Technology Development
OTD Open the Door (social networking website)
OTD Office of The Director
OTD Office of Tourism Development (Maryland)
OTD Older Than Dirt
OTD On the Double
OTD Orthogonal Transmit Diversity
OTD Ornithine Transcarbamylase Deficiency
OTD Operational Test Director
OTD Object Type Definition (Java)
OTD Old Telephone Directories (pulp and paper industry)
OTD Open Technical Dictionary (Electronic Commerce Code Management Association)
OTD Oakland Touchdown (bridge building project; California)
OTD Off Topic Discussion (forums/newsgroups)
OTD On the Dot
OTD Ottawa Therapy Dogs (Canada)
OTD Obsessive Twilight Disorder
OTD Oculotrichodysplasia
OTD Old Tablers Deutschland (Germany)
OTD One Touch Down (automotive power window function)
OTD Obsessive Twitter Disorder
OTD Organ Tolerance Dose
OTD Official Test Day
OTD Oh, The Drama
OTD Operations & Training Division
OTD Operator Trunk Dialing (telecommunications)
OTD One Time Developed
OTD On-Time Departure (airlines)
OTD Operations Training Directorate
OTD Organizational Theory and Dynamics
OTD Offer to Dedicate (California)
groisnaches:
I do believe that we, as parents, understand that any form of abuse is destructive. We do not need to get into the discussion about molestation. That’s for other threads and even other sites. But the physical abuse inflicted by smacking, denying lunches or trips to the bathrooms, and the emotional abuse of name calling, punishing without having verified guilt, the public embarrassment, are all equally as devastating. All are tantamount to murder, and this is supported by Chazal. If you explore the histories of the OTD kids, you will discover these forms of abuse in virtually all of them, though those that did it will claim they were justified in perpetrating the abuse.
This topic is actually old discussion, and efforts to negotiate the subject with mechanchim or menahalim have either of two outcomes. Either they categorically deny it ever happens in their mosdos, or they insist that there is no other way to deal with the situation (blaming the victim). I have heard both versions. But to hear one single menahel accept responsibility for these crimes, followed by interventions to remedy the situation – that I have yet to experience. I have heard yeshivos refuse to allow a professional to train the faculty on anger management, discipline skills, etc. I have watched them deflect accusations with the above two forms of denial. So the struggle just goes on. I am not the advocate of police or media, but until a case ends up there, I am not sure the awareness and recognition of the problem will be enough to save our children.
The little I know:
” …but until a case ends up there, I am not sure the awareness and recognition of the problem will be enough to save our children”.
Unfortunately the devastation caused by “being told by a person in a position of power, in very loud tones, for all nearby to hear, that you’re the lowest scum of the earth and that no one can be lower than you, and even public schools wouldnt want you and you should be on medication (all for NOT the most serious offenses by anyone’s standards)” is still not worthy of police intervention.
Thats part of the problem.
UNLESS AND UNTIL Askonim, powerful supporters of individual schools, do what they should do and pull the right strings.
DaMoshe- It is NEVER an “informed” positon to go “OFF THE DERECH” OTD, it is an emotional response that is the cause of it. Begging someone to COME BACK is good, becaue it is BOTH an emotional and intellectual respons to OTD , but in keeping with halacha( Jewish Law).
Don’t be embarrassed to come back.
ready now: You can claim that, but it’s simply not true. PuhLease is an adult, and knows the facts. I don’t know why she left, but I’m sure she thought it through beforehand.
I never said there’s anything wrong with begging, I just don’t think it will accomplish anything. It’s definitely not an intellectual response to OTD.
You said before “Yiddishkeit is THE BEST”, when in the opinion PuhLease, that’s obviously not true. You need to show WHY it’s the best instead of just repeating that line.
“It is NEVER an “informed” positon to go “OFF THE DERECH” OTD, it is an emotional response that is the cause of it.”
On what basis are you making this claim?
Is suicide an “informed position” by those that “chose” it?
OTD is the same.
There are books on this can anyone list afew good authors and titles on the topic I know some pple who will benefit from reading
<“Is suicide an “informed position” by those that “chose” it?
OTD is the same. “
As would argue Mullah Omar of the Taliban. But his answer would be ‘yes’, as long as you bring Infidels along.
Not a very compelling statement.
And to “It is NEVER an “informed” positon to go “OFF THE DERECH” OTD, it is an emotional response that is the cause of it.”
I respond with: <i>’Uh Uh'</i>. There, argue with that bit of spectacular reasoning.
(for those who need it: No, I am not comparing religions, I am comparing arguments.)
farrocks: In some cases, yes, it might be. Remove religious beliefs for a minute, because not everyone believes the same as we do.
Imagine someone who is suffering from a debilitating disease which is always fatal. It has a long, drawn out, extremely painful period of time before the victim dies. It is extremely hard on the patient, as well as his family.
In some such cases, a victim might prefer to die, rather than living in such excruciating pain. If they don’t believe in the same things we do, would you fault them for it?
moment it is opportune to appeal to any OTD person.
Suicide is a big mistake also an emotional response gone haywire. One must not do that – please call for help.
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