Order of Kibbudim?

oooh this is fun.

So I think all agree siddur kidushin is top.

In my travels I have found that the Yeshivish oilam views eidei kiddushin as a higher kavod than the Berachos with Reading the Kesubah being the lowest.

(The idea being siddur kidushin requires one to be competent in “Inyanei gittin vekidushin” followed by Eidim which requires neemanos, followed bvy berachos which any Gadol could recite followed by Krias Hakesuba which, as R’ Shachter once put it “Can be read by a monkey”)

Chasidim However place Bracha achrita as the highest after siddur kiddushin with Krias Hakesuba up there. and Eidi kidushin the lowest.

Though i’d love to hear other’s input

I’ve always seen krias kesubah being highest after siddur kiddushin.

I would think that Eidus is far more important than Krias Hakesubah. After all, a monkey can do Krias HaKesubah. Eidei Kiddushin are what actually makes the marriage happen. Why wouldn’t that be most important?

While being respectful of R’ Shachter’s opinion, Hamoin Am considers Krias Kesubah as the second most important and in a number of circles is read by the Rav of the shul where the Kallah’s family davens.

Sam2: I heard in the name of Rav Yitzchok Hutner ZATZAl that the chosson makes the marriage happen. Without his declaration of Harei At there is nothing to talk about.

I know a chasuna where there were so many big rabbonim, way more than any way to slice and dice the kibudim, that even some of the rabbonim were made before the chupa to be the flower girls!

Joseph

where they happy with that?

iacisrmma, while what you say is true, I dont think its quite practical to give away being the chasan as a kibbud

I’m pretty sure that you need a kallah too.

We had one by my chasunah.

ubiq and DY: Why not? Why don’t we make a Shaliach from the Chassan and Kallah as the two biggest Kibbudim?

I have heard from a Rosh Yeshiva of a Yeshiva in Yerushalayim for overseas students who is often invited by former talmidim to be mesader kiddushin, that in Eretz Yisrael the second highest kibbud is bracha acharisa while in USA the second highest kibbud is krias hakesuba (this means the monkey has been given a great honor).

By the way if I am not mistaken, the context of Rav Shachter saying that the kesuba could be read by a monkey was when asked by feminists whether a woman could read the kesubah. His answer was that reading the kesubah has no halachic significance outside of creating a separation between birchos eirusin and nisuin and as long as it is read that is fine, even by a monkey. Therefore technically speaking a woman could read it, however I assume he would not go for it for other reasons. This does not mean that it is not an important kibud.

If I recall, a feminist looking to stir trouble concluded from there and publicized that Rav Shachter views women as monkeys.

I got married out of NY State. The State I got married in required 2 witnesses to sign the marriage license. I had 2 of my wife’s friends sign.

147: I believe that the Yekkes give a speech at the chuppah for that reason.

At my wedding, I gave Krias HaKetubah as the 2nd “highest” honor. I’ve mentioned that I learned in Darchei Torah. I was in a smaller, half-day yeshiva while I was in college, which was also the time I got married. That Rosh Yeshiva was my mesader kiddushin, and R’ Bender shlita read the ketubah.

We almost had to switch things up – R’ Shteinman was in the US at the time I got married, and my father-in-law is close with him. There was a possibility that he was going to come to the wedding, and how can you not have him be the mesader kiddushin if he’s there? In the end he couldn’t make it, so things stayed as planned.

Krias ksuba should be given to one who can read Aramaic fluently.

Or if you have an enemy who doesn’t read well and you think is a monkey and you want to embarrass him (or her) in public, you can give it to them.

How interesting…

We just made a Chasuna B”H, here, in Eretz Yisroel. Still can’t believe we pulled this thing through… Chasadim Tovim constantly from Hakadish Boruch Hu, at every turn…

Our mechutanim requested the Kesuba reading and chose to give most of the Brachos to our side.. including the last one.

Someone told me a great story about kibbudim.

This guy married a geyores. Her family was used to family being “part of the wedding”, like bridesmaids, groomsmen, etc. They didn’t understand how a Jewish wedding works, and they wanted to be participants.

The couple came up with a great idea. They told her family, “Did you ever see in movies how at a Jewish wedding, the bride and groom are lifted up in the air on their chairs? That’s something reserved for very close friends. We’d like to honor you with lifting the chairs!” Her family was thrilled with it!

It’s brilliant until they read this thread and get super-insulted.

Joseph, he probably just thinks we shouldn’t publicize it.

I don’t think there’s what to be insulted about. Obviously, we can’t break halachah, and I think they understand that, yet we can still show respect by asking them to participate.

Joseph: I would explain it to them. “Jewish law necessitates XYZ, but we want you to be involved so we will give you honor W”. Don’t pretend it’s a big deal when it isn’t.