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November 19, 2012 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #606153Mimah nafshachMember
What do the users of the CR think about a girl seeing a male therapist or vice versa?
November 19, 2012 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #912248farrocksMemberBad idea. Certainly not alone (which is how therapy typically is done.)
November 19, 2012 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #912249popa_bar_abbaParticipantWe are talking about mental health therapy? Physical therapy? Speech therapy? Eating therapy?
November 19, 2012 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #912250Mimah nafshachMembermental health
November 19, 2012 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #9122512scentsParticipantI think that a Daas Tora should be consulted.
However my personal opinion (if it matters) is that it’s wrong.
I am aware of a case in which a (chasidshe) rav arranged a Bachur to see a female therapist.
Again, I think that it depends on a lot of details in which a competent das torah should be consulted.
November 19, 2012 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #912252popa_bar_abbaParticipantI’m a bit ambivalent about it.
My intuition is that it should be avoided if there is an equal alternative, but not if it seems necessary.
November 19, 2012 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #912253WIYMemberI think that in general therapists and patients can understand each other better when they are of the same gender. There are certain issues that plague each gender that it is just very difficult for the opposite gender to relate to.
November 19, 2012 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #912254yaakov doeParticipantIt should be avoided since many patients develop a strong attachment to the therapist. If there’s a huge age difference it’s probably less of a problem.
There are well qualified frum therapists of both genders available in NYC, maybe no so out of town.
November 19, 2012 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #912255The little I knowParticipantIf saichel is being used, gender matching the client to the therapist is a must. As with any rule, there are exceptions. It is virtually impossible to avoid the issue altogether, but it is certainly beyond recognized morals for anyone to “specialize” in working davka with the opposite gender. It creates continual shailos of yichud. There is a known record of some of those who claim such “specialty” of working with opposite gender clients, whether doing kiruv, counseling, therapy, etc. of becoming involved in non-professional ways. Only a select few of these situations make it to public knowledge, and get attention in the media and the blogs. One should wonder why anyone would put themselves at such risk.
November 20, 2012 12:17 am at 12:17 am #912257zahavasdadParticipantMost of the therapists at ohel are female
November 20, 2012 12:23 am at 12:23 am #912258shlishiMemberSo are most of the patients.
(Hmm, I wonder why.)
November 20, 2012 12:31 am at 12:31 am #912259myownopinionParticipantDear zahavasdad,
So how are you going to decide what to do? Take a tally of all the responses who have posted here? Why don’t you simply ask a your Rav.
November 20, 2012 1:27 am at 1:27 am #912260🍫Syag LchochmaParticipantzahavasdad wasn’t the OP
November 20, 2012 2:00 am at 2:00 am #912261WolfishMusingsParticipantSo, when couples want to/need to go for joint therapy, are they automatically sinning (since one of them must be of the opposite gender)?
The Wolf
November 20, 2012 2:20 am at 2:20 am #912262farrocksMemberDon’t be such a wiseguy. Obviously this is referring to one-on-one sessions not involving a married couple.
November 20, 2012 3:13 am at 3:13 am #912263frumnotyeshivishParticipantOccasionally, and I know this may be out there, I think an opposite gender therapist may be preferred.
There are many issues out there…
Bottom line – as with all extensive opposite gender interaction – a cost/benefit analysis is in order.
November 20, 2012 3:23 am at 3:23 am #9122642scentsParticipantWolf,
You always manage to sneak in a sinning comment!
Since its a couple, a lot of problems fall away.
November 20, 2012 3:28 am at 3:28 am #912265Loyal JewParticipantTotally assur. A male can not even talk to a non-male receptionist.
November 20, 2012 3:56 am at 3:56 am #912268WolfishMusingsParticipantYou always manage to sneak in a sinning comment!
That’s not true. There are any number of threads where I don’t mention sin at all.
The Wolf
November 20, 2012 10:07 am at 10:07 am #9122692scentsParticipantYour right, sorry about that. I should have written often instead of always.
November 20, 2012 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #912270just my hapenceParticipantRingless – Unfortunately you have strayed into an alternative dimension where the word ‘female’ must never be used (even to say that the word ‘female’ must never be used…). It’s known as the CR and is the home of some very strange and unusual lifeforms.
November 21, 2012 6:39 am at 6:39 am #912271farrocksMemberToo many “problems” have occurred.
November 21, 2012 10:42 am at 10:42 am #912274HealthParticipantIt’s commonplace that even Frum therapists see opposite gender clients and I’m sure they do this with Rabbonim’s okay.
Many therapists specialize and the help that individuals need is sometimes special. So it ends up that most therapists have opposite gender clients.
I sometimes wonder about some posters here -Do you just sit in front of your computers all day on your thrones and decide e/o out there is doing something wrong? How about going out once in awhile and seeing the world? Yes, Professionals deal with e/o even if they are Not the same gender.
November 21, 2012 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #912275icedMemberThese are one on one private sessions behind closed doors that last for about an hour without anyone but the two of them together alone.
You can only imagine what can occur when a man and a girl are in that situation. Often what actually happens behind those closed doors are worse than what you can imagine.
Which is why rabbonim prohibit or frown on such “sessions”.
November 21, 2012 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #912277zahavasdadParticipantI guess its also assur to see an opposite gender doctor or be helped by an opposite gender nurse
November 21, 2012 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #912279frumnotyeshivishParticipantHealth – you are getting defensive but missing the point. The question was about a client – not a professional. When a client is choosing a therapist, should the gender of the therapist be a factor in the decision? I think even The Wolf would agree it should be (no guarantees though). The real question is to what extent?
Whether professionals must generally treat both genders equally, and whether there are specialists who see opposite gender clients, is addressing the question from the wrong perspective.
November 21, 2012 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #912280The little I knowParticipantThere are many ways to cope with the problems of yichud. One is not considered a “machmir” if steps are taken to prevent yichud, one is just following basic halacha. Whether or not a surveillance camera qualifies to block yichud is a shailoh addressed by contemporary poskim. Having an open door with the possibility that one may enter the premises without prior notification is clearly a better choice.
It is also poor judgment to conduct individual sessions at odd hours of the night when interruption is all but impossible. Even an open door is probably useless at such times, and halacha would prohibit the relationship altogether. Now, Cough Weberman Cough.
November 21, 2012 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #912281SaysMeMemberopinion: it’s always better to have same-gender, as with a doctor. But if someone specializes or if someone is more beneficial, or there is no equal therapist of the same-gender, then opposite gender would be muttar. I’m sure the frum therapists have steps they are told by their rav to take, such as leaving the door slightly ajar, or the secretary popping in at any time, etc.
But please posters, can we disagree b’nachas, and not b’insult? Its thoughts and opinions and experiences, it doesnt have to get personal or include onaas dvorim. Thanks so much 🙂
November 21, 2012 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #912283HealthParticipantfrumnotyeshivish -“Health – you are getting defensive but missing the point. The question was about a client – not a professional. When a client is choosing a therapist, should the gender of the therapist be a factor in the decision?”
No, I didn’t “Miss the point”. I don’t think anyone has to start a post saying – should I go to an opposite gender professional instead of a same gender one. This is commonsense. If all things are equal -why wouldn’t the person stay with their own gender? The answer is, at least I think people here have commonsense, that the OP and others have an agenda. They want to look down on others – so they come here supposedly asking innocent questions like -“What do the users of the CR think about a girl seeing a male therapist or vice versa?”
The answer that I gave was that in the real world most therapists or other professionals specialize in different areas -this is why you see Many Frum professionals seeing opposite genders. No people – they are not Goyim.
To illustrate -they have had topics here whether women will only see female OB’s or male ones. A lot of Frum women said they prefer the male ones and obviously they feel not e/o who practices medicine are always equal and that’s why they go to the male OB’s. This is what happens in mental health too. This is why Frum people go to opposite gender therapists and this is why Frum therapists will take opposite gender clients.
November 21, 2012 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #9122842scentsParticipantHealth,
I do not know why you are assuming that this was the intent of the OP. In fact I did and still do view it as an innocent question.
I do not think that you can compare therapy to a doctors visit. A Doctors exam is objective, its not in any way similar to a therapy session.
With therapy, the therapist will discuss the clients emotions and feelings, there is a lot of room for personal relationship.
November 21, 2012 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #912285zahavasdadParticipantIts considered bad form for a therapist to get involved with a patient, no different than a doctor or nurse getting involved with a patient.
November 21, 2012 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #912286pink vaultzMemberI am a 35 year old married female who has tried 4 different female therapists and could not connect to any of them. I am thinking I should try a male therapist now.
November 21, 2012 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #912287batsevenParticipantTo SaysMe- well said.
Thats exactly what I was going 2 write
November 21, 2012 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #912288SaysMeMemberthx batseven
November 21, 2012 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #9122892scentsParticipantZDAD,
are you talking from experience?
With my experience, a therapist plays with ones emotions, talks about the clients personal experience, a lot of room to establish a personal connection.
is it right or professional? probably not, however there is the risk of establishing a personal relationship.
A regular health care professional does not have this risk.
November 22, 2012 12:35 am at 12:35 am #912290HealthParticipant2scents –
“Health,
I do not think that you can compare therapy to a doctors visit. A Doctors exam is objective, its not in any way similar to a therapy session.
With therapy, the therapist will discuss the clients emotions and feelings, there is a lot of room for personal relationship.”
I understand your point. (This may be a first.)
Anyways I’ve had to do with a lot of therapists – Medicine & mental health get intertwined a lot. I’ll explain what I meant about specializing. I know this female therapist who deals with certain types of Taavos, not going to mention what they are in a public forum. Anyways she’s Frum & she gets a lot of referrals from Rabbonim for Frum males. Why? Because in the NY area there are no Frum males, at least that people know about, that deal with these issues. In other words, these people need to have a Frum therapist who understands the Halacha as opposed to a Goyishe therapist. So she gets stuck with these males, but she is able to help them. The same with many Frum therapists I know – they deal with certain types of illness that opposite genders need help in and they can’t find elsewhere.
November 22, 2012 12:43 am at 12:43 am #912291HealthParticipantpink vaultz -“I am a 35 year old married female who has tried 4 different female therapists and could not connect to any of them. I am thinking I should try a male therapist now.”
Let me tell you something. Therapy is like a Shidduch – you need a good Shadchan. An org. called Relief does a great job of matching people to therapy. They will ask you about your illness and/or problems and they will try to match you to an appropiate therapist. The therapist can be either male or female.
November 22, 2012 1:15 am at 1:15 am #912292No One Mourns The WickedMember“Let me tell you something. Therapy is like a Shidduch – you need a good Shadchan.”
Exactly, The fact that we are even having this conversation is absolutely ludicrous! Seek the therapist that will be able to help you in the most constructive manner,gender should not make a difference.
November 22, 2012 2:01 am at 2:01 am #912293icedMemberGender should make a major difference.
At least if you are a Jew, that is.
November 22, 2012 3:34 am at 3:34 am #912294Loyal JewParticipantA person going to a therapist is obviously having tzures and that’s precisely the wrong time to be meikel about mingling, tznius and yichud.
November 22, 2012 4:17 am at 4:17 am #912295frumnotyeshivishParticipantNOMTW – “Seek the therapist that will be able to help you in the most constructive manner…” That is precisely the point. Gender is one of the most defining factors about a person. Who a person is defines how they can help. Unlike other “Health” industry workers, there is much subjectivity and variety within every aspect of mental health care. Additionally, there must be a personal, deep, trusting relationship, for many types of therapy to work. Saying gender doesn’t matter, may be just as shallow a view as saying one may never go to an opposite-gender therapist.
What is very clear to me, is that there is no one answer.
The universally agreed upon concept here, is to get as much objective help as is possible toward the “right” goal. To do that one must identify the goals desired. Being that everyone’s goals are very different, the disagreement here seems to be more about what the “right” goal is, than which gender gets you there.
November 22, 2012 9:07 am at 9:07 am #912296jmj613Participantfrom my experience: i am a male, married with kids bh. i have tried therapy with both genders and just couldnt connect to men. Id say it depends on each case.
November 22, 2012 9:53 am at 9:53 am #912297farrocksMemberWhen someone says they’ve tried it both ways and can only connect with the opposite gender, all sorts of red flags should be raised. That is exactly why they should not be seeing the opposite gender.
November 22, 2012 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #912298yichusdikParticipantHealth, you and I don’t see eye to eye on things like Zionism, but I agree with you on this 100%. And I would like to see from those who are telling us it leads to problems, evidence of more than one or two (i.e. a “problem” rather than an aberration that could happen same gender as well) licensed, professional therapist in the frum community who has taken advantage of the situation.
November 22, 2012 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #912299OnlyTheTruthParticipantI am just wondering how many of you have actually had the opportunity to see a therapist. I started reading some of your posts and I stopped. Not all of them, some of you are so irresponsible. I don’t think the person asking the question asked an halachic question. And even if yes, the answer should always be. “Ask a Rav, A Rabbi, or Dean, Rosh Yeshivah, etc.. some one you would ask other shailos. Its not so simple, as a yes or no answer. Sometimes their might be reasons to permit and sometimes not. And to answer the question like it is. Only someone that was/is in the situation should and could answer this.
Now if I may I will try to answer the question,
Again Personally please find a Rav to talk to as well. But don’t assume its enough they are busy and they are not therapists. Make a kesher with one to ask all your question, if you don’t know one we can try to help you find one.
Now about the therapy, I think it all depends on why you need to go, and if your going for your self or for your self because of some one else. Sometimes you can feel more comfortable with a person of the opposite gender that will have more understanding to your concerns and you will speak more. Example: Josh go’s to a man therapist, he feels very funny talking to a man about how his wife dresses or treats him or doesn’t bathe or things that are worse. He feels that a women will understand better, he might open up and talk more. Not that I’m saying that the man doesn’t understand its just that some might feel that way. Same with a women, She might feel uncomfortable talking to someone in the same gender about issues Example: my husband dose this wierd thing or that, etc… That’s why it really depends on the situation and why you need to go.
November 22, 2012 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #912301icedMember99+% of the times you’ll never hear about the problem that occured. That is the nature of this beast.
November 22, 2012 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #912302HealthParticipanticed -“99+% of the times you’ll never hear about the problem that occured. That is the nature of this beast.”
This post IMHO has to be Denounced. Your insinuations are beyond the pale. Most forbidden relationships never make the 8 O’clock news but to insinuate that this is a common problem amongst therapists is ludicrous. It’s not even a common problem in general amongst Frum people. Let alone s/o who’s license would be on the line. Stop looking for the few cases to say that it’s Ossur to see a therapist from the opposite gender. As a matter of fact, there are cases of bad things occuring with therapists from the same gender. There is this one guy who fled to Israel and has been fighting extradition the last 20 years.
You sound like s/o who doesn’t even believe in therapy in the first place.
November 22, 2012 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #912303computer777ParticipantSince this thread talks about therapists, I would like to mention that there are tons of self books out there that are excellent. Many are better than a real life therapist, and they are certainly cheaper.
(Sure there are those that need real live therapists for their issues, but there are a great many people who got the help they needed from a self help book.)
November 22, 2012 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #912304ChulentMemberHilchos Yichud are still in force when seeing a therapist.
Perhaps, even, especially so.
November 23, 2012 6:57 am at 6:57 am #912305HealthParticipantChulent -“Hilchos Yichud are still in force when seeing a therapist.”
I don’t know if they are or not -I’m not a Poisek. And I doubt you are either.
But this would only be a problem if the client (woman) wasn’t married.
If the client or the therapist are women & are married and the husband is in the town – then there is no problem of Yichud.
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