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Is it ok for SHIDDUCH AGED males and females to be friends with each other?
(The reason I stress Shidduch Age is because I feel Teens sometimes get swept up in the excitement of talking to someone of the opposite gender that they just don’t think clearly all together)
Google ladder theory.
Sacrilege – It is assur M’DORAISA for males and females to be friends with each other.
Sacrilege
No its not ok, you can very easily get into “trouble” especially if you have feelings for each other and there’s no shmirah because its not a shidduchim context so there’s nothing stopping you.
(speaking as a yeshiva-rooted person)
Freinds as in hello / goodbye? That’s ok. Friends as in I’ve got an extra ticket to a ball game, wanna come? No, that’s not ok.
Either date, or don’t
No!
“I’m aware of that Theory.
In a case where you both ARENT interested in each other.
I am 5’9 he is 5’2. Not going to happen. What then?”
You obviously don’t understand the theory. No woman understands it. But it is basicly true. Yes- even among frum men.
It depends on a lot of things.
It depends on how much risk you like to take. If you’re the type of person who would go swimming with sharks because you’re pretty sure they won’t take a limb off. Well then you might be inclined to take the chance.
For the rest of us that don’t enjoy having our limbs surgically sutured onto our bodies, I wouldn’t recommend it.
Yes, that is the beauty of the theory; women will never understand it no matter how many times we try to explain it.
I’m sorry to say but Popa is right
Listen to R’ Orlofsky’s shmooze on “Platonic Relationships” you can access it online
R Moshe, in Even Haezer Chelek Daled Siman Samech, writes that it’s Asur & probably involves a number of Isurei D’oraisa.
women do not get it. over. and they can’t. the same way we don’t get them
Sacrilege – It is assur M’DORAISA for males and females to be friends with each other.
My wife is my best friend. Last time I checked, I was male and she was female.
I guess we’re just sinners. 🙂
The Wolf
Girls may be able to be friends with boys , but trust me when i say men can’t be freinds with girls….
Sacrilege: Derech HaMelech’s words may seem overly dramatic, but he is 100% correct.
If you notice in davening by P’Sukei D’zimrah that we say every morning: Zekeinim IM ne’arim, bachurim VGAM besulos- That word VGAM separates the two whereas by the zekeinim and nearim it can be connected.
Interesting how not one man here seems to disagree with the theory. I guess that should say something.
Many years ago I did have a female plutonic friend, There was no interst on my end of anything.
My main regret was when I met her (now ex-) husband. As a male friend I was able to size him down and figure out something really bad that maybe a female who was excited to get engaged could not see
I was able to size that this guy had an issue keeping a job. I kept my mouth shut and didnt say anything as I did not want to ruin her shidduch and unfortunatly I discovered I was right.
zsdad: Frankly you sound jealous of his pending marriage to “your” so-called “plutonic” gf. It’s not your place to “size him down”.
Like the Rabbonim said, there’s no such thing as “platonic” when boys and girls are friends.
Not at all. Actually I had gone out with her once and wasnt interested
Like any friend one should try to help friends.
Actually it was my place to size him up, I would do it for any friend in order to prevent a mistake, my mistake was not expressing my misgivings about the guy.
I will now give any woman my opinions of a man if I am asked and I will give me honest opinions.
female plutonic friend
You had a friend from Pluto?? (Let me guess, she gave you the cold shoulder?? 🙂 )
The Wolf
Women are from Venus not Pluto
No, It is NOT ok to be friends witht he opposite gender.
Im saying this from a “yeshivish” BY point of veiw, the “modern” accepted way, and even shidduchim scene wise- it DOES not make it ok- I have many friends that do hang/are friends (“plutonic”) with the other gender and it NEVER ends well- and is not something I would condone.
Im not here to tell anyone what to do but thats my strong opinion.
Last year I was a shiur counselor in a more “open-minded” girls camp where the girls did hang out with guys and honestly did not know much of the halachot of shomer negia/yichud etc…but there was a mashal I told them that can VERY much be applicable here.
Your in a the park, and you want to go on the water ride. So, you go up to the top and your going down the slide but in your head you decided- im just going on the ride but im not going to fall into the big pool at the end of the ride. So, what do you do- how do you stop yourself while your sliding downstream?
So the girls gave answers-
“you hold on to the side of the slide and try to get yourself up and off the ride”
so I asked them “What are the chances of you not making it to the top and falling down into the water?”
they answered “theres a 98% chance you will fall in.”
So I explained- you want to go out with boys- its fun, you have a great time- just like the water ride..but you say to yourself; dont worry- im going to be careful I’m not going to do things I shouldnt (ex: not being shomer) and I’ll be ok; were just friends.
But the chances of that happening are usually 98%! 98%- and are you willing to take that chance- that 2% chance of doing something you could have avoided all togteher…and so on…Even in our “big” mature adult world- WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL and we have to set gedarim; it doesnt mean you cant say “hello” “good-Bye” and be menshlach- but it doesnt mean you have to be friends either- Is it really a risk worth taking?
“You had a friend from Pluto??”
“Women are from Venus not Pluto”
I honestly think the discussion of where in the solar system female humans come from is much more interesting and helpful than the discussion of whether one can have friends of the opposite gender.
Women are from Venus
Ah, maybe that explains why they always feel like they’re under so much pressure. 🙂
The Wolf
Ah, maybe that explains why they always feel like they’re under so much pressure. 🙂
The Wolf
Thanks for making me smile 🙂
RedNails- Very well said. The goyishe world is just so loose that it takes courage and strength to uphold the holy. My wife uses books by Gila Manalson (i.e- The Magic Touch) to teach youngsters, teens, unaffiliated adults, etc. about the dangers of a loose society and the ultimate beauty of upholding the kedusha.
One needs only to skim Pikei Avos to see the many things said about these topics….May Hashem see our desire to fight and take us out of the 49th level of tuma we find ourselves in (again!) bimheira b’yameinu, amen.
rednails-
that is a great mashal! Kudos for sharing it!
My wife is my best friend. Last time I checked, I was male and she was female.
I guess we’re just sinners. 🙂
Well, apparently, it is only assur for males and females to be friends with each other, but one on one should be okay (at least if you’re married). ?
I guess I’ll be burning:)
Thanks KIsh Echad BLev Echad & pumper!!
The Ladder theory is blocked my my firewall at work, but from experience in the “Chinuch/Social” world, there is NO such thing as a plutonic relationship between Boy/Man and Girl/Woman
Never Never ever
this is getting ridiculous:
its pl A tonic, not pl U tonic
GeshmakMan: You are correct. There is no such thing as a plutonic relationship. However, there is a platonic relationship:)
The ladder theory was too complicated for me to follow, but the waterslide pretty much summed it up.
In “friendship situations” women think with their emotions and intellect, men think with neither.
Play it safe and keep it distant, unless you really want to date for tachlis. Otherwise, someone is bound to get hurt.
either way – they both don’t exist!
its pl A tonic, not pl U tonic
You know, some of us don’t use tonic at all. 🙂
The Wolf
I was just wondering,where in the Torah does it say it’s asur to for a man and woman to be friends?
The way it appears to me, in the MO world this is not even a question mostly. They have largely adopted the view of the secular world regarding the permissability of cross gender friendships.
Does anyone here have a job? Are you friendly with anyone at work?
Being “friendly” and being “friends” are two different things. The former is to be commended; the latter to be censured (in the context of opposite genders).
student- Shlomis Bas Divri ended up with an Egyptian man because she was friendly and said hello to everyone, which is why she was known as bas DIVRI (as in dibbur, speech) She was the only casulty in mitzrayim and that’s why the Torah publicized it.
Homeowner- With all due respect, one can be friendly and greet everyone with a smile, be polite, and just take care of his/her job at work but I was always told that in the workplace one should not refer to the opposite gender by their first name, because that breeds closeness. It’s Ms., Mrs., or Mr. So-and-so. In today’s day and age one has to be even more careful. There’s too much closeness in the workplace that can, G-d forbid lead to marriage issues. I’ve heard countless stories, unfortunately that I’d rather not share…..
I have dozens of Talmidim who are living proof that even if they thought it can be done in theory……… it cannot be done in practical life. The mishna warns against it and the Mishna is timeless. Al Tarbeh Sicha Im Haisha.
Rabbi Orlofskys theory is right on. I just heard it live and women met with him to ask how he understands them so well…..
Ish and Isha without the Shchina is FIRE!!! Aish. Only foolish people or Big Baalei Gaavah play with fire.
The Mishna says we must be ever vigilant….. do not trust yourself until the day you leave this world. A Kohain Gadol changed after serving 80 years!!! Can we invite Yetzer Horah and then trust ourselves to beat him??? I have enough trouble fending him off when he comes uninvited,
BTW, 5-9 and 5-2. is it unheard of??? I know a few happily married couples where she is significantly taller and he is not blind!
Hatzlacha in Tahara and Kedusha!
student:
I was just wondering,where in the Torah does it say it’s asur to for a man and woman to be friends?
I think that covers all married and single women over Bas Mitzvah
mod,
thats talking about family members or niddahs, where do u see about other women??
Hmmm. I assume that there is an issur of lo sikrivu by Eishes Ish. Though you seem to be right that it doesn’t fall under “sh’er bisaro” or nidda. I can definitely see it m’svara though we need a pasuk.
It’s been awhile since I learned meseches Yevamos so I can’t remember all the limudim but I’m pretty sure that we learn all issurei erva from each other.
Maybe Joseph can help us out
“There is also a severe prohibition from the Torah in close friendships between a young man and woman.”
not disagreeing that its definitely assur to be friends, but those pesukim may not be the actual source
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