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postsem:
I don’t know why he became flustered. I do what “they” tell me to do if it trust “them”. People who I trust told me to open the door for the girl when I started dating.
Now, it happens that it also makes sense to me, but I would listen to people I trusted even if I didn’t understand it, especially if there was no harm in it.
postsemgirl, them could possibly the Rebbe for the boys who are dating, or their Mothers. Either one is a good source of info to go by.
As for So Right, WHICH rest of us? And why would you say that OOMIS is MO especially in an insulting way? Furthermore what does that have to do with having manners?
that last paragraph is so beautiful popa, it brought tears to my eyes!!
Cshapiro:
What is your agenda here? You act as if I once insulted you.
Just spit it out already.
Frum girls (especially the frummer ones) don’t expect to have the door opened for them, and in fact are turned off by it.
so right:
Who gives you the right to call me not frum. I am certainly NOT turned off by it. And I am certainly frum.
I expect an apology.
So right just called me frummer. I guess my opinion counts more now.
So Right, when you drop off a passenger, do you wait for them to go in the house or do you drive off as soon as the car door is closed? I am sure you don’t go out and (even attempt to) open the car door for them. So does your manners and mentchlichkeit extend only to “Kuhvid HaTaireh?”
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so right
You’re kidding, right?? The frummer ones don’t expect it?? Who are you calling frummer? Are BJJ girls and Brisk boys frum enough for you? Because I know many of those who most definitely want the door opened for them/open the door. This has NOTHING to do with MO. It has to do with being a mench.
The Brisker Rav used to open the carriage door when he picked up girls for dates.
Probably because they didn’t have BJJ yet.
so right, again, have you taken a poll? Do BJJ girls and Brisker boys come with a rule book?
so right
Do you have proof? Because I personally know these people. They definitely got second dates and weren’t dumped for opening the door. I still can’t believe how you think it’s a problem to do it.
popa
LOL
The problem is that the OP tries to make something assur in halacha that just does not exist. I tell you what, so right, go ask your Rav what he thinks and let us know.
So”right”:
I don’t know the parameters of chukas hagoyim, but it does not cover everything they do.
Most of the daily activities we do are straight from the goyim.
What we wear. (And no, Polish nobles weren’t Jewish.)
What we eat. (Polish peasants weren’t Jewish.)
How we speak. (Bad German and bad English are both Goyish.)
Basic social norms. (We didn’t invent shaking hands.)
The tools we use. (knives, forks, shovels, guns)
So yes, if the custom was to bow to your date, I would probably do it, and I don’t think it would be chukas hagoyim.
Call me back when you destroy your engagement ring.
i think this thread is getting old real fast….dude, if u dont want to open the door, then dont, but dont rant and rave about it in the cr cause nobody cares…
i dont think a girl will say no to a guy if he doesnt open the door for her, but middos are middos u cant fake it forever, u either gottem or u dont!!!
All I can say is that if any girl is willing to reject me because I held a door open for her, then I’m glad I didn’t marry that girl.
The Wolf
so right or so wrong,
it does not matter if they expect it or not, if you want to be perceived as a mentch you open the door. and secondly who are you to determine who is frumer than who, apparently sinas chinum doesn’t matter to you
Why am I very confused between So Right and Trying my Best?
I keep thinking to myself, hey, these are two posters, although they seem to be the same.
So”right”:
Take a look at the Rema YD 178:1.
Chukas Hagoyim only applies to things which are done for pritzus, like wearing red clothes; and things which make no sense, since we are concerned they are avoda zara.
Opening the door for someone is not done for pritzus, and we know why it is done. It is done because it is romantic. And no, romance is not pritzus.
So we can forget that line of “reasoning”.
How about tznius,kosher car free dating? See? You take the offending car door away so simply. Cars in general are a bad middah. Where I live, you cant get your daughter into, or have trouble keeping her in, a Bais Yaakov ,if you own a car.
Because handing her a fork is not considered appropriate behavior, and it would be considered bad manners.
twisted: Interesting. It’s definitely surprising that you find motorcycles to be more tznius.
I have never said it is a middos issue. If it was considered normal to hand your date a fork, I would do it.
Look, even a Beshow is a breach of tznius to some extent. The argument here is to what extent we are supposed to breach tznius in the courting process. I don’t see why you can’t see this viewpoint- I can see yours.
why dont we work on FINDING A DATE before we worry about trivialities like opening up the door. PRIORITIES man
as a girl in shiddichum i could say that if a boy would open a door for me it would b good bye charlie to him………i would find it extremely not app and not tznius on his part to do so………
BJJ KID:
Huh? Wouldn’t you ask someone before you dropped him for doing something totally normal?
so right,
there is absolutely no tznius problem w/opening the car door on a date,so please don’t try to corrupt the halachot of tznis to promote your narrow-minded and totally incorrect hashkafa
would i ask s/o? of course i would,,,,,,and my parents would advise me not to continue with such a bochur. in the yeshivasha velt it is not an accepted practice.
bjjkid, who told you that? Would you be surprised to know that Rebbeim tell bochurim that it was the polite thing to do?
Did bjjkid ever post before or is this another screename for TMB and so right. I find it a little odd that just for this discussion we get a “BJJ” kid.
So Right, you seem to be deficient in your knowledge of the details of what “chukas hagoyim” are. It comes down to traits that are defining points of that particular nation. To use an example from Rav Yosef Viener, you wouldn’t say that ketchup on hamburgers are assur because of “chukas hagoyim” since that’s how Americans eat hamburgers! So before ANYONE continues to throw around the term “chukas hagoyim” learn the topic please!
I don’t see opening the car door as being anything more than manners. I do it for my parents, wife, did it for my grandparents YBL”CH and I’m sure others do the same.
What’s your thought on the Chosson giving the Kallah a rose by Badeken? how about during dancing when he sings (howls?) Aishes Chayil? Obviously these seem to be loaded questions. My Rav/Rosh Yeshiva drew the line at the rose.
;
aries2756, no i never did post before, i have been watching this thread for a while and now i have the courage to reply. and i have brothers in yeshiva who would NEVER open the car door for a girl on a date, and yes they have spoken to their rebbeim about this….it is s/t that defines who u r and shows what hashkafos u have…
Mayan_Dvash…what about spicy mustard 😉
bjjkid – as a girl no longer in shidduchim but who was for a while and is now married to a Brisker – I wouldn’t have said no for a boy opening the door or I wouldn’t be married now 🙂
Many yeshivish boys do open the door, many yeshivish boys don’t. Some are told specifically to, some are told specifically not.
So I also wouldn’t have said no if a boy didn’t the door because chances are he’s just following what he was told, and not being impolite.
(and yes I have friends from BJJ too, and they felt/feel the same way)
BJJ Kid:
Well if that is what your parents advise, you might listen to them. Personally, I think you ought to ask some rabbinical figure first.
In any event, asking your parents is a far cry from your original contention that you would feel it is not tznius and drop the guy.
Really, there is absolutely nothing not tznius about it if he walks away and lets you close the door. I have no idea what is disgusting you about it.
BJJ:
I spoke to my cousin who did learn is Brisk and is now in Lakewood for the rest of his life, and without going into personal details, has excellent ultra-yeshivish yichus credentials.
He said many of the guys in his circles do open the door. He said some do not. I doubt even those would dump a guy over it.
Well if that is what your parents advise, you might listen to them; mihgt? there is an inyan of kibud av vaiem involved,…..and also i am who i am based a lot on my upbringing and i feel how i feel based alot on who my parents are and how they feel…its not even a discussion i would need to have with my parents to know how they feel b/c they live thier lives in a certain way and hence, i live mine in a similiar fashion, and NO, my father did NOT open the car door for my mohter…my brothers will NOT for their future kallah’s IY”H and my future chossen will NOT for me.
mamashtakah,
Now that I’ve asked, can you ask your Rav and let us know his reponse (rather than your assumed response of his)?
I did ask. He did not see any halachic problem with opening the door for a date, or a wife, or a daughter for that matter. He is of the strong opinion that opening the door is absolutely not chukat hagoyim. He added that he opens the car door for his wife. I asked him why HE does it, and his answer was “because it’s a nice thing to do.”
If your father, who is already married to your mother, does not open the car door for her, it has nothing to do with tznius. He just doesn’t open the car door for her. There are ways to open a car door even from the inside by leaning over the seat and pushing it open. He could have figured out like others have said to open it and keep walking, etc. So your father just doesn’t bother or never gave it a thought and it has nothing to do with hashkafa.
Be honest, did you actually have this discussion with your father?
BJJ:
A. There is no inyan of kibbud av regarding who you marry. You have no mitzva to listen even if they threaten to disown you.
B. Usually, when 20 year olds say “I don’t need to ask, I know the answer”, it is because they are afraid to ask. I have no idea why you would be afraid to ask here.
C. It is odd that you are sure your father would disapprove so strongly, when you cannot even state a reason why you think it is objectionable, beyond a vague “not tznius”.
Rav Yaakov kaminetzky opened the ar door for his second wife
“oomis, considering you are mo, your perspective is quite different than the rest of us
That is a disgusting thing to say. You should apologize to oomis.
opening a car door is not chukas hagoyim.
Would everyone stop this nonsense?
And why is anyone bothering to reply to BJJkid? Ill eat my shaitel if thats not a second username for so right or trying my best…
I know plenty of briskers (my own relatives) who opened the car for their date. Its mentchlich.
we are not supposed to “breach” tznius anything. And walking down a block in a bathing suit is a massive breach of tznius even to a man.
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