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I strongly believe it is wrong for a frum person to open the car door for his date, for so many reasons (tznius, chivalry, following the goyish ways, etc.)
Before you try excusing this behavior with whatever excuses you have, see if your excuse still stands after asking yourself this:
Why shouldn’t the girl open the car door for the guy?
I don’t see why it is a breach of tznius.
I don’t see why it is a breach of chivalry.
I don’t see why it is following the goyish ways. There are obviously boundaries to when we don’t follow goyish ways, for example we wear shirts instead of fig leaves.
The reason we do it is because it is romantic. So is taking her to a lounge and shmoozing, taking her out to eat, buying her a ring, etc. There is nothing wrong with that.
Popa.
Close to two years ago you spoke about this as well
In that discussion, you posed under the names Will Hill, Joseph, Zalman, Bogen, The Big One, Chuck Schwab and ujm
That means you used SEVEN aliases as a way of making it appear there were others in agreement with you.
Or how about this one: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/dating-dilemmas
Where you use the names: ujm, Joseph, Zalman, Bogen, Chuck Schwab, Will Hill, The Big One and Toras Moshe Here you use EIGHT aliases
Not sure if this is sad or funny, but on the second page you post a Rambam (as Toras Moshe) and then thank yourself TWICE (as Bogen and Zalman) for posting it.
How many aliases are planning on using this time?
So Right, maybe you should ask a Rov to see what the Rov says about opening the car door for a date.
A. You don’t need to watch her; you can just open the door.
B. You are supposed to romance her. I’m sorry you didn’t know that, and I’m glad to be able to help you.
so right….im just curious if ur a guy or a girl??
if ur a guy….just do it…we know its not gonna last forever…:))
if ur a girl, the guy is checking u out regardless….so get used to it!!
So right
I open the door for the girl, and no, I am not “checking her out” while I am doing so. Lol I can do that any other part of the date! Hey if she sits down on a chair I may have that problem, so I guess I have to tell the girl she can’t sit down ever…unless I am reading into this the wrong way. Please clarify.
As far as the girl opening for the guy. It is the guy that is supposed to be chasing the girl(gemara kiddushin) and this is one of the things that he does. Though I did have a girl who opened the door for me as a jk..
10-Luchos: How do you know all these usernames are one person?
so right: Has it occurred to you that it’s possible for a guy to do something — anything at all — for reasons other than sexual gratification?
It’s manners. Besides the fact that yes, a guy is supposed to romance his date, it’s expected as part of common courtesy. Do you hold doors for people in public places? Do you say good morning to your neighbors on the way to work? Do you thank the bus driver if you take a bus somewhere?
Bc its a nice thing to do, so why not?! Are you really so against a man going a little bit out of his way to be nice to a girl who may one day be his wife? If that’s the case I hope you’re a girl bc if not I kinda feel bad for the girls u go out with if that’s your attitude 🙁
so right – maybe you shouldn’t write about these things if it really bothers you or if in your words it’s ‘ossur’. you probably had dates where you met in the house at the dining room table. to each his own.
Before you try excusing this behavior with whatever excuses you have, see if your excuse still stands after asking yourself this:
Why shouldn’t the girl open the car door for the guy?
Because it’s polite to hold a door open for someone. I sometimes hold the door open for my wife and sometimes she holds it open for me.
Got a problem with it? Does the Torah have a problem with it? Or is there some 614th mitzvah somewhere that says “Thou shalt only open your own door?”
The Wolf
Like PB said, there are many other opportunities on the date when he can “check you out” so that’s obviously not the reason. Yes, it’s a chivalrous thing to do and nothing wrong with doing so, so why not?
so right- clearly ur a guy that has a complex and wants the girl to open the door for u and have major taivah issues.
10-luchos u have absolutely no life if u remember posts from 2 yrs ago
so right, you’re so wrong! a guy should open the door for a girl, then look away while she gets in. this doesn’t have to be done in a non-tznius way. btw, that’s what a guy was told by his rosh yeshivah. if it’s good enough for him, it should be good enough for you. a girl wants to date and marry a MAN, not some wimpy girly guy that can’t manage something as simple as opening a door for her. unless you’re one of those freak frumiaks that twist everything to make them look like a tzaddik, like not acknowledging a female neighbor, even if she’s old enough to be his mother.
So right:
You thought process is quite interesting. Is there any rabbinic figure you trust? Have you ever asked him about this?
stamgoy I’d say creating 18 accounts to push the same messed up agenda is the work of someone with no life but to each their own.
also what is wrong with chivalry?
so rite….whats the deal??? y u so chauvinistic??? seriously whats up with the HOLIER THAN THOU attitude??? im guessing ur as single as they get, and this kinda would explain why….does ur shrink think this behavior is normal?!?!?
And a Yid should definitely not be “romancing” someone he isn’t married (or at least engaged) to.
Heck, at least you’re better than some posters who say that a man shouldn’t be romancing even a woman that he is married to.
The Wolf
At least WolfishMusings is agreeing there is no more reason a Yid should open it for her, than she for him. Look up chivalry before opining that it is permissible for a Yid to engage in.
But I *do* hold the door for her — you missed that salient point. You said it shouldn’t be done at all. The fact that she returns the favor on occasion doesn’t negate that.
The Wolf
Look up chivalry before opining that it is permissible for a Yid to engage in.
Let’s see, “chivalry” includes: courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms.
What’s wrong with courtesy?
What’s wrong with generosity?
What’s wrong with valor?
And if you have been reading the thread about guns, you should know there is absolutely nothing wrong with dexterity in arms.
Years in the Coffee Room have enabled most of us to spot “so right” and his other aliases miles away.
Sometimes he posts the EXACT same posts under different names:
and
I’d suggest just ignoring him, but then he just talks to himself
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/a-flag-on-a-hill
If you see a guy holding a car door open for his wife, you can be sure of one of two things; either the wife is new, or the car is… 🙂
So Right – so wrong.
To the genreal frum public at large: Only a bulvan would seek to use the Torah, the paradigm of menschlechkeit between odom and chaveiro, as an excuse to avoid acting like a mensch. A door should always be opened for a lady. My husband still does that for me after 34 years, and my kids do the same. I likewise hold the door for him, when the situation warrants (like if I am already there at the door and he is coming up the walk). Simple courtesy is NEVER, repeat NEVER against the Torah. People have to stop trying to use Tznius as an excuse for their boorish behavior. EVERYTHING can be done in a tzniusdig manner, if your intention is to actually be tzniusdig, and not mnerely to use tznius as an avoidance of good manners.
WolfishMusings: I’m reading your comment as being equal both ways, unlike most others.
And I’m reading your OP that it’s assur for a man to hold a door for his wife/date even if it’s equal.
The Wolf
Well, if the problem is we don’t know what “romance” means, that is not a problem.
If you think we really agree, and only disagree on one issue of opening the door, that is great.
Unfortunately for you, it seems from your posts that you think dating is more similar to an interview than a relationship. So we don’t agree.
WolfishMusings: That’s a misunderstanding.
Is it? You said it was wrong “for so many reasons” including tzniyus. If you didn’t believe that it’s forbidden for a man to hold a door open for a woman (even with all other things being equal) then what did you mean by that?
The Wolf
Here is the way I see it. You can use any excuse you want to get out of being a mentch, but in the end all you come across as is a boor. No girl wants a boor.
so wrong: it doesn’t matter what the technical definition is. what matters is how it’s used and understood in the vernacular. i can list a number of words that technically mean one thing but that shouldn’t be used any more for their current usage.
now if you expect your wife to be the one opening the door for you, you’d better be ready to cook clean, and care for the kids.
i don’t envy your future wife.
There is no tznius issue at all with opening the car door. I always opened the door, then left it open and walked away.
Perhaps if you stay there to close the door, there would be some tznius issue, but I still would probably do it if it was expected.
It makes no difference what the ORIGINs of the word romance and chivalry were, in terms of our understanding of the concepts today. It is romantic for a man to buy his wife flowers for no special reason, tell her to go relax while he watches the kids, spend time with her late at night just talking, and yes, open the door for her. It is chivalrous for him to put her needs ahead of his own, warm up her car on a cold day, give her his jacket when she is cold, and yes, OPEN THE DOOR FOR HER. Talk about tznius all you want, if a guy won’t do that, he is a boor. He is supposed to protect her and show more kovod to her than to himself. These are ways in which he can do so.
so wrong, you are SO messed up, I think you should take yourself out of the dating scene. I wouldn’t wish you on any of my friends.
I think girls should open the car door for their dates.
And I also think healthy non-pregnant girls should give up their seats on the bus/subway for (same age) guys, as a matter of courtesy and mentchlichkeit.
I disagree. I think anyone should give up their seat for anyone else who needs it more (i.e. pregnancy, age, burdens, etc.) regardless of gender (although, I suppose, in the case of pregnancy, it has to be gender-based). I don’t think a healthy BY girl should give up her seat for a yeshiva bochur (all other things being equal), nor do I think the reverse should happen as well.
Of course, if a person wants to, they are free to give up their seats to whomever they want.
The Wolf
dude….stop skipping ur shrink appointments!!!
Look at it as a chessed when you hold the door open for someone.
MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL:
Don’t forget to continue opening the door for her after marriage!
Dating is not a show. It’s a way of showing each other who you really are. If it is a passionate act then it should be continued throughout life!
So right,
The guy is the one who opens the car door because he is the one taking the girl out. If the girl was taking the guy out on a date than you could say that she should open the door
It’s normal for the one who is “hosting” to take care of all aspects that their hosting includes.
And as many posters wrote, it doesn’t have to be done in an untznius fashion. Most guys open it and then walk to their side of the car and let the girl close her own door.
Do you have a problem that it’s the guy who takes the girl out and not vice versa? Is that also stemming from the goyim? Is it too romantic?
If you think it’s a Tzniyus issue, don’t do it.
EDITED
Why does everything have to be twisted into a goyish versus yiddish concept. Good manners is just plain good middos. Courtesy, is just plain good middos. What is acceptable behavior is proper and acceptable behavior whether it is happening in the goyish world or the yiddish world. If YOU choose to call in Romantic or Chivalrous that is YOUR label for it. The rest of us are labeling it Good Manners and Good middos! It is polite for a man to open a door, it is polite for a man to pull out a chair, it is polite for a man to carry the bags, it is polite for a man, to lift the heavy objects, it is polite for a man to ask the woman what she would like and it is the man’s obligation to protect the woman.
I remember that Reb Moshe and Rav Pam, treated their wive’s with the utmost respect and to use your words, chivalry. To me they were the best role models of how to be a good husband.
I am going to take exception to what aries said.
I don’t think we do it because it is polite, I think we do it because it is romantic.
The difference is that I don’t think there is anything inherent that a man should open doors for a woman, but, it does help build a romantic relationship- which is the goal.
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