Onslaught of Frum People That Are Closet Atheists

Ooooh, nice point, WIY.

Closet atheists, beware! It’s a trap!

Come on, anyone with the G-d-given gift of seichel ought to know that!

But wait, atheists don’t believe in G-d; ergo, they have no G-d-given gifts.

The VAST MAJORITY of people are not atheists. Atheists are few. But a large percentage of Jews have doubts. An even larger percentage believe in G-d but do not have enough motivation to keep most Mitzvot. About 13% of Jews are fully observant, and 30% are Shomer Shabbos.

Lost: The modern definition of “strong atheist” probably only qualifies as agnosticism in the dictionary. It’s still Apikorsus.

Moshe Goldberg, have you responded to Eli Willner?

For the record, despite the fact that Moshe speaks as if he knows me, I don’t know any Moshe Goldberg and there isn’t anyone of that name listed in the Yeshiva’s alumni (though of course he could be listed with a different first name).

YFL: Some Yungerleit lost their emunah after reading the New Testament or the Quaran. They couldn’t reconcile that with the Torah. How do we help them live a frum life without believing?

Using history is a pretty weak one. Unless of course you are referring to a specific Maamar Chazal that you feel interferes with the timeline of accepted history.

Science is only an issue with a young earth, which is not accepted by many of the Frum posters here. You could have gone with Rabbi Arye Kaplan’s approach.

I’ve learned plenty of science myself. The one thing to take from it all is, Re’u Mi Bara Eileh.

To notice design you don’t have to argue about evolution. There is plenty of design in front of your eyes even after theorizing self-creation. Natural scenery that is beautiful, and soothing, has a color scheme — which is a real phenomenon and not just based on what we are used to.

There are recurring themes throughout the universe which act like a finger print. We actually take this for granted when we give examples on one topic from completely unrelated concepts. This works only because they all come from one and therefore have the same innate properties.

Science or not, let’s not fool ourselves. Leaving any system alone will not advance it. Even the human race, without the intervention of reason and understanding would barely have survived.

You also mentioned witnessing hypocrisy. While this is a problem, it could have been addressed. The Torah never claimed to take away free will. It does claim to be a sustainable lifestyle. If you’d find that keeping the Torah makes people wild then you’d have a Kasha. But we only see the opposite.

In general, I think you have certain issues which could have been addressed and/or put into context.

Another major test of faith is suffering/depression and being severely wronged by people. Even Iyov denied the resurrection of the dead. In 1990, when atheists were very few, I saw homeless men yelling at a “preacher”.

Marbeh: adderabah it should be discussed. We are not Christians who accept everything simply because the pope/church leaders say so, r”l. The first Halacha in the Mishnah Torah is not to “believe” in God, but to “know” God exists, through rationality, philosophy, and all the other tools God gives us to discover him (Torah isn’t the only one).. Answering this yungerman increases emunah, Daas, and glorifies hashems name.

who is debating anything in this thread? a discussion has barely gotten off the ground, much less a debate.

This certainly is a discussion not for little children and all your responses are on the level of 2 year olds!!

so if the yungerman from Lakewood has some kashois on yidishkeit he is entitled to look for answers and he’s even more entitled to keep his kashois to himself!!!

But I don’t understand how come out of love for your wife and children you won’t bring them to the light of truth if you think you’ve got the truth? do you want your son growing up as a believer in the toire or do you want to give him a chance at doing something useful like bringing new medicines for illnesses etc.. It’s something that is a worthy cause according to any and every religion in the world why teach him to spend all his energy for something you doubt?

is your love for your wife and children real or is it your fear of not finding a stable place [wife] and freinds in another setting? are you giving up truth for comfort?

now if all you have is doubts and you still have a tzad that all the gedoiley yisroel together werent smarter than you i understand that you have to give yourself a chance to explore yidishkeit in every way possobile and if you get answers to all your questions please post them!!

they surely will help others!!

Despite what YFL said, archeology, for the most part, doesn’t “directly” anything.

Furthermore, for anyone with questions regarding archeology, R’ Gil Student did a great job in his articles at Aishdas dot org slash toratemet. Of note, Kenneth Kitchen — a leading scholar of the ancient Near-East, and probably today’s leading egyptologist — wrote a veritable telephone-book sized volume to counter biblical minimalists — who in his words “didn’t do their homework.”

Also see with comments, the recent guest series on Torah Musings by Dr Joshua Berman – a Lecturer in the Department of Bible at Bar-Ilan University. He claims that those studying treaty forms are highly convinced of a strong biblical parallel with the Hittite vassal treaties of the 13th century BCE and do not share consensuses that exist in other fields of bible study.

Also, you can refer to my previous comment if you don’t consider the remaining puzzle-work inevitable for a subject this kind.

Moron: LOL.

Yungerman- just curious what was your level of yeshivah ed?

did you learn in a ivy league yeshiva ? and how well of a learner were you?

Marbehshalom, that’s your answer to this young man? Close the discussion? Threaten to “report” the website to “gedolim”?

What do you think that will do to his emunah? Strengthen it or weaken it?

What do you think that will do to others reading thsi who have questions….Sha, Shtill, don’t talk about it, I’ll tell on you! Do you think that strengthens their emunah?

This response to critical thinking is what Yungerman has encountered for years, and what has helped push him to look at the world in a different way than he was brought up.

He deserves better answers than “Close this forum!”

Marbeh Shalom, those are not questions, they are terutzim.

Just to reiterate what Marbeh Shalom and Moron are saying, so that I can help to help Yungerman from Lakewood:

YFL, Of course you have sefeikos! Because you went to a yeshiva that was slightly to rigid! Or slightly too flexible! But of course there are no real sefeikos, because my rebbi even told me! Are you saying that you’re smarter than my rebbi? You’re just saying that because you once had a rebbi who hit you and you couldn’t handle it!