Ok…About The Whole Hair Measuring Thing…Please Help Me Understand 👧📏✂️

My opinion on this whole thing-
K, so at first I was really mad when I saw the video. RIght? Along with everyone else
But now I think it may have been a mother measuring her own daughters hair and the school didnt force measuring (I hope I’m right)
But the school still has a dress code which says hair cant be more than four inches past the shoulder. Which I think is completely unfair. Its an added chumrah based on nothing. And it’s not something that you can just do for school. Like my school we need to wear our hair up. But I can take it out as soon as I get home. So it doesnt bother me as much. cutting hair is much more permenant.
I probably forgot to sayhalf the stuff on my mind and what I did write was a big mush but hopefully you get the idea 🙂

This video brings a larger issue to light, posting on social media.

People must realize the ramifications of putting things out in the public on social media. Everyone must ask themselves before posting something, am I being mikadish sheim shomyim or am I being michalel sheim shomyim. Please please don’t post something that can portray Klal Yisroel and by extension Hashem in a negative light. Chazal tell us that chilul Hashem is so serious an aveira that nothing is michaper until yom hamisa. It would be appropriate for us all to take stock of the ramifications of our actions and not chas vshalom thoughtlessly post something that can lead to chilul Hashem, lashon horah and motzei shem ra.

1. I agree with DY other reasons include concern for innovations no different than when people are concerned for OO innovations. furthermore it leads to confusion as you say in #2 ” also see #2 “Hello? I’m confused.” you dont know what is halacha and what is chumra anymore.
2. I agree with DY
3. I dont know about barbaric but it is “dehumanizing” and embarrassing. I spoke to several female family members who have gone to BY’s over the past 20 years (though not in the same city as this one) none of them had ever had anything measured and all thought this was dehumanizing
4. I agree with DY
5. I agree with DY. though should point out that apparently after this went viral the school changed their policy
6. Lol! that is a good one. It is more likely someone (without $$$) who called the school would be told “If you don’t like the school, don’t send you kid there…um, is someone forcing you to send your kid there?” (for the answer see #4)
7. I agree with DY. Though would add feeling dehumanized in the name of religion. and coming out confused as to what is halacha vs chumra vs shtus cant be good for remaining frum

Hi Shopping!
I don’t mean to derail your thread but I have a question for you.
You asked some good questions. You got some good answers. Here’s my question-
There’s a lot of talk about the causes of OTD. DY says (tongue in cheek?) that the cause is whatever your pet peeve is. I think that with a problem as serious as this, some straight talk and clear thinking would be a good idea. As you may have noticed yourself from reactions to the hair measuring fiasco, many people say that telling our kids what they can and cannot do will make them go off the derech. There’s a wave of permissiveness aiming to combat this, with parents encouraged to indulge their child’s every whim (new car? – no problem. new jeans? -I’ll take you out and buy as many pairs as your heart desires. trashed the new car? – no problem, we’ll replace it. want some piercings to match those jeans? -let’s go!) the prevailing wisdom being that as long as our children never hear the words “no I won’t allow that” we can eradicate OTD.
Then I read Shopping’s words,
“Following rules doesn’t make girls go OTD.”
Can you explain Shopping613?
I’m genuinely interested in your perspective and insights.

“the prevailing wisdom being that as long as our children never hear the words “no I won’t allow that” we can eradicate OTD.”

I dont think that is the prevailing wisdom.

The issue here is it is important that we teach halacha and then strive towards chumra growing beyond the minimum. When the halacha keeps changing it makes the whole thing sound fake. Rabbi Resiman said this in a during hsi motzoei Shabbos shiur towards the beginning of last year. First the halacha was skirts have to cover the knee then the halcha became past the knee now it is taught 4 inches past the knee (unless it has gone further by now). This leads to confusion and certainly has potential to lead to rejection. Look at the OP who readily admits regarding the very issue she is commenting on “Hello? I’m confused.” Thats isnt to say all people with confusion go OTD, but it is troubling that a graduate of our school system is “confused” about such a basic issue. Is it any wonder if someone weaker, who is similarly confused decides the reverse that if this has no source, then probably covering hair after marriage has no source and who knows what else.

I dont think anyone says saying ““no I won’t allow that” causes kids to go OTD. The concern is arbitrarily saying ““no I won’t allow that” and when standards seem to shift arbitrarily is (part of) what causes (some) kids to go OTD.

I don’t think anyone is claiming that there is a halachic prohibition of unmarried women having long hair. The issue is whether the school’s grooming and dress code is permittable by halacha (probably yes, schools of all ideologies and religion do such things), and whether the manner of carrying it out is acceptable by Jewish standards (a different question). As long as it doesn’t violate halacha, Jewish school can make rules (even arbitrary and capricious ones) , just like all other private schools – even if such rules are not required by halacha.

Thanks Shopping.
Interesting.
Especially in light of the fact that, as you point out, there’s a lot of bashing of authority figures going on. The fact that parents may be whispering behind their children’s backs and trying to keep their kids off the internet might not be enough to curb the damage.
Hope you come join us again when you’re off the bus.
And may all our tefillos for our children and our children’s children be answered with boundless chessed even if we’re undeserving.

“When the halacha keeps changing it makes the whole thing sound fake”
Yes! that is the problem many kids face, the perceived changing makes the whole thing sound fake.

” Whoever got thrown out for wearing the wrong pair of socks that was about uniform. He knew he could get thrown out as did we when we tried to skirt the rules. No one was surprised. Parents should take the responsibility to make sure there kids adhere to uniform and let them know if they skirt the rules any issues are their fault.”
You are way off. And once again you speak as if you were there, tossing aside someone elses experience as if it was nothing. May be worth a re-read or a humbling “it seems to me” before your responses.
No, he didn’t know he would be thrown out because it wasn’t clear enough of a violation. No, you don’t kick people out of Davening before musaf and send them packing for a one hour walk that will ensure they miss musaf for a “uniform violation”.
No, it is not true that no one was surprised. People were horrified. It was a very damaging experience to both student and spectators.
Their parents are responsible, the rules just change across staff members, students, and time.

DY says (tongue in cheek?) that the cause is whatever your pet peeve is.

I’m pretty sure nobody blames OTD on things being done the way they want it to.

And a small PS to Syag,
Telling teen age boys what socks they can wear doesn’t fall into any of the categories I discussed. No connection to Halacha, minhag, chumra, or hashkafa..
IMNSHO this is plain narishkeit.
I would hesitate to embarrass the young man in question in the manner in which it was done if he had transgressed an actual issur. But for this narishkeit? Please.

Syag, I think we can both agree that the middle road, as in most cases, is the best.
And the socks story does leave me puzzled. Socks? Maybe we just need to leave our kids alone. Sounds a bit excessive.
Shopping, I liked what you said but there’s one part of your post that I objected to. (Are you still riding a bus? Might’ve been a slip of the mouse.)-
Hashkafa and chumra are two very different things and there’s no equating the two. Hashkafa is your outlook on life, how you define various subjects such as you connection to HKBH, your connection to Torah, your identity as a member of klal Yisrael, the synthesis of ruchniyus and gashmiyus both of which are necessary parts of your life and impose different, sometimes opposing obligations and restrictions on your daily life. You get the idea.
Chumros are physical restrictions that go beyond the actual letter of the law (or Halacha) that are imposed for various reasons, most notably to keep us away from the point where we may come to transgress and commit an aveira. There are restrictions that some consider Halacha and other people classify as chumra, which is why it’s always good to have your own LOR to identify what’s what. A lot of practices that are part of the original subject at hand, namely tznius, fall into this category.
A practice is either Halacha le’Moshe mi’Sinai or it’s not. But Halacha is not a matter of hashkafa, or one’s own personal outlook on life. It’s a matter of studying the relevant sources, beginning with Torah Shebiksav and through the full body of Torah Shebe’alpeh, and coming to the correct conclusion, a daunting task best left to a Rav who has dedicated years of his life to the pursuit of this knowledge.
Chumros, or added stringencies, are a matter of minhag, family practices passed on through the generations, or minhag hamakom, those accepted in a particular location or community. A lot of the confusion today stems from the amazing advances in transportation and communication making the world a very small place and bringing together people from distant communities that in the past had very little to do with one another. We have unprecedented opportunities to come together in beautiful displays of achdus, and also unprecedented opportunities to become very confused as to how a G-d fearing, Torah observing Jew looks and acts.
Saying you reject a certain practice because it’s not in line with your personal haskafa is just plain wrong. Finding a Rav who will quantify and qualify observance of Torah and Mitzvos for you is a much better route.

A minhag or chumra that a kehila maintains becomes actual Halacha.

True.
A minhag develops the status of a din in shulchan aruch for a member of a kehilla where the minhag has been maintained.
Questions arise today when the borders between kehillos overlap or intertwine or become blurred. A Rav can answer your questions about whether and to what extent you need to observe the minhag of not eating gebroktz on Pesach the same way he can pasken regarding the quantity of wine in the kos you use for arba kosos.
And a person has to have a very authoritative voice with the backing of a vast amount of Torah learning to attempt to establish new minhagim in our generation. It’s one thing to decide that in your own home you might like your wife to prepare a particular dish that you and your kids enjoy in the Sukkah and another thing to insist that all your neighbors start following the same recipe. As for socks… I think I’m done with those.

“Someone may feel that a specific number is arbitrary, but there has to be a line somewhere.”

Im not sure There HAS to be a number. As a kid We couldn’t have a yarmulke that was “too small” the Rebbi decided what was too small and quietly told those who needed larger one. there was no rulers involved and we werent lined up in front of our peers to have them literately shatz up how frum we were.

Rebyid put it best ” Whether or not the hair length is proper depends on how it looks. So look.”

A friend told me about a rebbe he had that walked into class, and almost every bochur was wearing a rather small yarmulka. One of those bochurim had parents who had traveled to Israel, and brought back this package of kipot for their son and his entire class. The rebbe sat down, took out a dime from his pocket, gazed back and forth at the coin and yarmulkas. The bochurim all changed to their regular yarmulkas. Not a word spoken. No one embarrassed. No discipline – just simple, basic education.

Any rebbeim like this left? Or are we too busy legislating, imposing, and focused on control?

“It’s stupid and immature to bash things online like this.”

This is part is without question wrong, it was the viral sharing that led it to be stopped.
and Speaking of real abuse it was likely the bloggers that led to the real problem of child abuse being somehwat acknowledged in the frum velt.

“f you really cared, and it truly bothered you, and you truly did not agree with the school you’d move elsewhere for your kids’ chinuch’ sake….just saying. Or you would shut your mouth. You wouldn’t blow up on twitter and push your kids to be negetive toward their own school.”

This line is silly too. first of all how do you know the people who posted/discussed the video told their kids how they felt. And The suggestion that people should move or accept (what some view) as degradation is beyond absurd.

I think a larger point needs to be made:
Focusing on tznius and measuring is not what keeps are girls frum and erlich. You know what works? Giving them a love for Hashem and themselves! And explaing why they need to be tznius, explaining the hashkafa. Of course halacha needs to be taught, but the focus nowadays is only on the rules. When you ask about certain Lakewood schools, they tell you all the rules! Where’s the warmth, the love, the focus on ahava for themselves and Hashem?
Without girls wanting to be frum, without them being taught why to be machmir, we now have an epidemic of girls coming out of High School and throwing away all the rules! Give a girl a hug, a smile, and teach a class about tznius. but the focus on all the rules is causing a lot of immodesty.

You don’t get to decide what kind of troll I am.

And even if you disagree that measuring hair is too invasive, you should be able to understand why people think so.