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To be sure, there are divergences in the compilation of feminine and masculine identity by the feminist- and traditionalist-minded. But that is not where the divide in communication lies. To my mind, the traditionalist-minded generally view the feminist approach only for its seeming aberrations, without regard for the ideology as a whole, which creates some misrepresentation. (<–no condemnation here, it is justifiable and very understandable.) So I am going to explain feminism as I see how it can apply to Judaism (because I am an evil feminist, mwahaHAhahaHAHAHA >:-D), and try to reconcile both divergences and misconceptions.
[phew!]
Remarks, questions, scathing criticisms and TL;DRs welcome.
Hear, hear. From a non-feminist male.
So following that logic do you think it is better for someone with a naturally angry disposition to channel his anger in non-abusive ways or to work on becoming humble?
Yes everyone is born with different natural tendencies. The good ones are there to be enhanced and the bad ones are there to spend a lifetime overcoming.
At the risk of sounding chauvinistic, I recall seeing in a sefer I wish I could remember where) something along the lines, that as a result of the switch of Dinah and Yosef, she ended up with a (Yosef’s) male tendency to “go out” and that was where she got caught.
On the other hand, my R”Y told us that Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer (his grandfather) dictated to his Rebbitzen the entire Even HaEzel the implication being that she was able to understand his ideas.
Similarly, at an asifa in his house, a Rov quoted a posuk and she came out from the kitchen to tell him he had misquoted it (they were both right, the gemara had a different girsa than the tanach).
At another asifa in her house she came out to tell them to stop dithering when the right thing to do about a certain issue was obvious. So this is obviously a brilliant lady who is not afraid to put herself out there.
The point though, is that all this being so, she was still not a public lady. She didn’t become a “Maharat” or try to pasken women’s issues. Her greatest contribution, the one that only she could perform, was to raise an invalid (her husband) into a gadol hador. That is what makes her an eishes chayil. Not a chayeles.
post too long. as a man, i cant get past the first four lines before i space out and think about beer.
Toi, your post explains nearly everything I’ve ever read by you. And OOM, we are in full agreement.
And your need to answer his humor with rudeness was . . .?
rational- stop sucking lemons.
“I mean, wouldn’t that really negate their purpose in wanting to do the thing in question, being that the premise of feminism is to assert feminine identity and capability?”
I think I mentioned something like this in the other thread, and it’s really something I never understood. I mean the whole point of feminism, IMHO, is girl power. Girls are SMART! Girls are AWESOME! Girls have the XX factor!
Personally, I have no desire to be a rabbi, and to be totally honest, I can’t really relate to that desire in others so well- but I can understand why women want to be rabbis, and I think it’s got a lot more to do with what OOM is saying than what people think it is. It’s like, you’re a kid, and your friend says there’s no way you can swing as high as he can. So you decide you want to swing, because you know you really can, but you’re only allowed on the swings for 30 seconds at a time to prove it. The point isn’t that women can’t be RABBIS- okay. But women also don’t have a lot of platforms- Rebbetzin Kanievsky is the exception, not the rule, and even she didn’t have a fraction of the public effect that a rav can have. Perhaps she didn’t want it- nobody can fault her for that, and that’s her business. But to then turn her into an example of how egalitarian Judaism is is ludicrous.
tl;dr
OneOfMany–
A couple of observations:
1) You sure can write.
2) There are communities that disagree with you on a community basis, while on an individual basis there are several women who do have careers that lets them use their talents.
syag: I think rational meant that it explains all his other humorous posts.
And I thought girls just want to have fun.
I understood you to be saying that some women have natural tendency towards fields that were historically typified as belonging to the men and that a balance needs to be found between these tendencies and religious gender obligation.
What I am saying is that being a “natural tendency” does not legitimize a negative character trait.
After re-reading what you wrote, I wonder if you were just saying that women are just as smart as men albeit generally (but not exclusively) in a different way. If that is the case, then I agree with you.
If that was not the case, then I found your position to be too abstract and would appreciate a more concrete explanation and/or example.
I do not see how that follows my train of thought.
I’m sorry, I don’t know how to explain it better than that. Maybe I am just not understanding what you were saying, so my point makes no sense to you.
For example, women do not have an obligation to engage in talmud torah, but it does not logically follow that women are unable to engage in talmud torah.
Well I agree with your saying that women are physically and mentally able to engage in Talmud Torah.
I think that in a thousand years maybe a small handful of women would be able to plumb the depths of Torah like Rav Elyashiv did though. Not because I think women are dumb, but because I think that women’s intelligence generally lies in different areas.
An example: A man is able to cook. When a man cooks, he makes food. When a women cooks she does avodas haMikdash. So why would a man cook (obviously not talking in extenuating circumstances)?
Another example: When a man sends his wife out to learn Torah, he gets (hopefully embarrassed, but other than that) nothing. When a women sends her husband out to learn Torah, she gets all the schar and benefits of learning Torah.
My point is, why make our own avodas perach? Why would we want to put ourselves into a situation where we are not enhancing ourselves is the way most beneficial for our roles?
OOM, I am a non-feminist, an anti-feminist even, but I don’t disagree with what you wrote. Our insular society has to create superfluous fences and precautions around the obligatory base tenets for the same reason that every other human society does; because the letter of the law will disintegrate if left up to the average individual. Sure, if everyone was as honest about their motives and thought out as you are we wouldn’t need to stigmatize feminism, but that simply isn’t the case. People generally do what makes them feel good while putting in just enough thought as to avoid doing something that will sit uncomfortably on their conscience. There surely are situations in which a woman (or a man) is given natural abilities or characteristics that empower them outside of their accepted social sphere of influence; that’s where you will find the rebbetzins who started beis yaakov movements, or lehavdil, became prophetesses or judges in Tanach. The problem lies in the fact that the vast majority of people do not have the Torah hashkafa to know whether what they are doing is a mitzvah or a pritzus geder, and so we, as a society, have to dissuade the average person from breaking out of the norm because 99 times out of 100 people will lack the knowledge, seichel, and daas Torah, and they will do the wrong thing even though they think they are doing a mitzvah. -IMHO
An example: A man is able to cook. When a man cooks, he makes food. When a women cooks she does avodas haMikdash. So why would a man cook (obviously not talking in extenuating circumstances)?
This is not only sexist, its plain wrong. When the Kohanim roasted meat in the Bais Hamikdash, they were not doing Avodas HaKodesh? Do I have to list the Tannaim/Amoraim who would specifically cook or otherwise prepare for Shabbos themselves?
Another example: When a man sends his wife out to learn Torah, he gets (hopefully embarrassed, but other than that) nothing. When a women sends her husband out to learn Torah, she gets all the schar and benefits of learning Torah.
When a man sends his wife out to learn Torah, he gets a more Kosher and Torahdik home (assuming he sends her out to learn the right things, not the Sem “Yalkut Shimoni” Tiflus). Halevai every woman should have a seder in Basar V’Chalav.
My point is, why make our own avodas perach? Why would we want to put ourselves into a situation where we are not enhancing ourselves is the way most beneficial for our roles?
Who are you to decide what the Netiya and the Derech of Avaodas Hashem is for any individual, male or female? Who are you to say that the Torah of people like Reb. Nechama Leibowitz or Reb. Bruria David should have not been revealed to Klal Yisroel!?
Just think, if you were in there position, would you be doing what they are doing?
OOM: Sorry for the delay in responding. Interesting topic.
That was wordy, but basically you’re saying that there is no real difference between women and men, except the roles dictated by halacha, which just so happen to reflect certain biological realities?
[phew!]
Halacha is Jewish values. Halacha is not egalitarian. Ergo, egalitarianism cannot be “taken in tandem with good old fashioned Jewish values”.Derech HaMelech: I was once talking to someone about women’s learning. He said what’s the point of it? He said, “Do you think this girl learning will cause Talmud Torah to be Miskayeim B’yisrael? She’s better off making coffee for me while I learn.” And I said back to him, “Do you think you’re learning will cause the Torah to be Miskayeim B’yisrael? By that logic, only R’ Chaim (Kanievsky) should learn. No. You have a Kiyum in learning. So does she. They might not be the same Kiyum, but why are you trying to deny someone something you can’t live without?”
That was not what I was trying to say. I didn’t use all those words for no reason, you know.
Oh, I just figured you used all those words to be more like a man.
Thanks for the warm welcome OOM!
I agree with you, but consider that people don’t just get their hashkafas from a unified priest-class of rabbeim who have received their smicha from the 70 zkeinim. People get their haskafas hachayim from parents, friends, siblings, and the society in which they live – something that can vastly vary by a factor as minute as the neighborhood they find themselves in.
So, yeah, maybe everyone is capable of learning the proper haskafas, but not everyone has access to this knowledge, and surely not everyone (including rabbeim and morahs) are equipped to teach it properly to the ones who are fortunate enough to have access to this knowledge. And so society -as a whole- veers from its original trajectory as set by Moshe Rabbeinu at Har Sinay. The further we are from the proverbial “ground zero” of the giving of the Torah with all its proper hashkafas, the larger this snowballing effect is. In other words, as more time passes, we lose our grip on the one absolute truth, and it starts giving way to the effects of society and the invasion of ideas & haskafas foreign to the original truth. In addition, our level of incapability at retaining and transmitting this Truth to our next generation is supplemented by stigmas and “societal norms” which evolve to mimic as best as possible the True hashkafa (which we are simply too ignorant to transmit properly). This is why it was accepted for Devorah to be a shofetet, for Miriam to write a shira, and for Rashi’s daughters to wear tfillin, when, if they were alive today we’d throw them in the same pit as the women of the wall – lehavdil. I hope I made sense…
I completely forgot that I had posted on this thread. How does everyone remember where their posts are???
This is not only sexist, its plain wrong. When the Kohanim roasted meat in the Bais Hamikdash, they were not doing Avodas HaKodesh? Do I have to list the Tannaim/Amoraim who would specifically cook or otherwise prepare for Shabbos themselves?
Cooking was only an example of what I think is considered part of being and akeres habayis. Comparing taking care of the home to the avodah in the Beis HaMikdash is not my own comparison, I’m pretty sure I saw it from Rav Shimshon Pinkus. Obviously the men in the actual B”HMK are doing avodah. I think this is not comparable to what the preparations that the Tanaaim and Amoraim did, I don’t believe they were doing it as part of taking care of the home, but rather as part of kovod Shabbos.
I think I specifically mentioned cooking because I enjoy cooking (maybe breakfast for himself, I don’t remember) and my R”Y told us that one time he was cooking and his grandmother R’ Ahron Kotler’s Rebbetzin told him that “a bochur doesn’t belong in the kitchen”.
When a man sends his wife out to learn Torah, he gets a more Kosher and Torahdik home (assuming he sends her out to learn the right things, not the Sem “Yalkut Shimoni” Tiflus). Halevai every woman should have a seder in Basar V’Chalav.
I am not talking about going to a nice shiur once or twice a week for chizuk. Althogh as you point out, his benefits from such a thing would be a kosher and torahdig home. The difference I think is that this is only an indirect way of getting schar: a more torahdig home= less aveiros, more mitzvos. While a man’s limud Torah directly generates schar for his wife. I think it would be more beneficial for the husbands to have such a seder, because my experience is that Jewish wives always know to ask, only sometimes the husband pretends to know…
Who are you to decide what the Netiya and the Derech of Avaodas Hashem is for any individual, male or female? Who are you to say that the Torah of people like Reb. Nechama Leibowitz or Reb. Bruria David should have not been revealed to Klal Yisroel!?
I don’t think these are my ideas. I look at what men are mitzuveh to do and what women are and take my cues from there. A man is mitzuveh to learn Torah a women is not. Ergo, a man fulfills his tachlis through limud torah, a women does not. Eishes Chayil doesn’t talk about the women who sit by the gates. I’ve never heard of those Rebbetzins.
OoM: All I am trying to say that that those who are not be denied their abilites simply because it does not fit into certain perceptions of what a woman should be.
My personal belief is that whatever the previous generation thought is good, change (where it is not heferu torasecha) is bad. I don’t think that we have such a perception by accident. I think there is a reason for it and I think this reason stems from what I believe is the tachlis of a man or woman. Yes, an individuals tachlis can vary, but I think there are general rules and we can infer those rules the Torah: a man fulfills his tachlis through all the mitzvos, a women fulfills her tachlis by emulating eishes Chayil (and of course hermitzvos).
Why do you feel that just because someone has an ability it is meant to be put to good use and not meant to be a nisayon to overcome?
You are centering religious worship around gender roles. My premise is that religious worship may not necessarily be centralized in the way you think it is.
I think I am doing just the opposite. I am inferring gender roles from religious worship (ie. from what the Torah tells us about men and women).
Sam2: And I said back to him, “Do you think you’re learning will cause the Torah to be Miskayeim B’yisrael? By that logic, only R’ Chaim (Kanievsky) should learn. No. You have a Kiyum in learning. So does she. They might not be the same Kiyum, but why are you trying to deny someone something you can’t live without?”
Although I think your friends comment about getting him a coffee was disrespectful, I think it does provide an example of a wife helping her huband learn in fulfillment of nashin bmai zakain. Also the Nefesh Hachaim does say that limud HaTorah provides kiyum to all the olamos and I don’t think he specifies Torah of gedolim, so I’m not sure where your answer comes from. The question would be if he would also say that about women learning.
What kiyum do women get from limud haTorah?
I think I specifically mentioned cooking because I enjoy cooking (maybe breakfast for himself, I don’t remember) and my R”Y told us that one time he was cooking and his grandmother R’ Ahron Kotler’s Rebbetzin told him that “a bochur doesn’t belong in the kitchen”.
Unfortunately, that is part of a larger shittah (to which I strongly disagree). Out of that shittah comes the Kollel guys who claim that taking out garbage is “beneath them”. I hear, it is a “Lakewood” shittah, but IMHO (and that of many Gedolim of the previous generations) Chazal would disagree.
I am not talking about going to a nice shiur once or twice a week for chizuk. Althogh as you point out, his benefits from such a thing would be a kosher and torahdig home. The difference I think is that this is only an indirect way of getting schar: a more torahdig home= less aveiros, more mitzvos. While a man’s limud Torah directly generates schar for his wife.
Agreed.
I don’t think these are my ideas. I look at what men are mitzuveh to do and what women are and take my cues from there. A man is mitzuveh to learn Torah a women is not. Ergo, a man fulfills his tachlis through limud torah, a women does not. Eishes Chayil doesn’t talk about the women who sit by the gates. I’ve never heard of those Rebbetzins.
Once again, you are “playing G-d” by making the Tachlis of every woman not to learn. Who are you to tell the Ribbono Shel Olam why He put a specific woman in this world? Perhpas “B’derech Klal” we can say they have a Netiyah (Chazal say so), but for an individual?
Out of that shittah comes the Kollel guys who claim that taking out garbage is “beneath them”. I hear, it is a “Lakewood” shittah,
j’accuse. You have no information about that; you are not aware of any kollel person who considers taking out the garbage beneath him. You have heard one famous legend which is repeated about every gadol in america that he came to the house to take out the kollel guy’s garbage because it wasn’t beneath him.
Perhaps at most you have heard of this in a couple of horror stories which may or may not have been true, but I do not believe you are aware of this in any widespread way.
Perhaps at most you have heard of this in a couple of horror stories which may or may not have been true, but I do not believe you are aware of this in any widespread way.
If it is beneath “Kavod HaToyrah” to cook for one’s family (or one’s self), it is certainly beneath them to take out the garbage.
Boruch Hashem I don’t live in Lakewood, so I am unaware of specific examples. I am Modah that today, mistama the live-in Hungarian maid of the Kollel guy takes out the garbage, not the husband and certainly not the pampered wife.
As an FYI, I have heard from the family (and it is on the OU website) that it was Rav Gifter.
and im sure there are no horror stories of men in egalitarian homes who were too darn lazy to take out the garbage and made up a dumb shittah to validate themselves?
and im sure there are no horror stories of men in egalitarian homes who were too darn lazy to take out the garbage and made up a dumb shittah to validate themselves?
There was a story though of a Bochur who, following the Rebbitzen’s shittah, almost starved to death because he was unable to bring himself to enter the kitchen to get food.
He subsequently was forced (as he was so hungry) to eat (the story is unsure at this point) either the Grogros of Rav Tzaddok or CMOT Dibbler’s “Sausage inna bun”, and that was the last of him.
OOM: Hi! 🙂
That was not what I was trying to say. I didn’t use all those words for no reason, you know.
OK, let’s discuss the other part of the post.
Insomuch as I am familiar with the halachic process, halacha is not (in principle) derived from “Jewish values.” Halacha should be the sole arbiter of Jewish values, but as I outlined above, I do not think that is the reality. And let’s not quibble about terminology. When I use the words “egalitarianism” and “feminism,” I mean only exactly what I have outlined above, without regard to other definitions you may have have in mind.
I am not familiar with the halachic process so no comment on that.
We agree that “Halacha should be the sole arbiter of Jewish values”. I think it is. Why do you think it isn’t?
OOM, you sure know how to use your tisha kavim!
But you’re missing the point.
The opposition to feminists has nothing to do with their “wanting to be like men.” It has to do with our Mesora Hakdosha. It’s kept us going for a couple thousand years and counting. And we trust our Chachamim, leading us in an unbroken chain all the way back to Sinai, to help us stay on the right path.
As for gavra’s mention of Rebbetzin Leibowitz, and, Lehavdil bein chayim l’chayim, Rebbetzin David- these two brilliabt ladies never tried to become Rabbis. Nor did they limit their accomplishments to a nice hot potato kugel. All within the framework of our Mesora.
As for gavra’s mention of Rebbetzin Leibowitz, and, Lehavdil bein chayim l’chayim, Rebbetzin David- these two brilliabt ladies never tried to become Rabbis. Nor did they limit their accomplishments to a nice hot potato kugel. All within the framework of our Mesora.
+1
gavra_at_work
^caution
I think I specifically mentioned cooking because I enjoy cooking (maybe breakfast for himself, Itold us that one time he was cooking and his grandmother R’ Ahron Kotler’s Rebbetzin told him that “a bochur doesn’t belong in the kitchen”.
Unfortunately, that is part of a larger shittah (to which I strongly disagree). Out of that shittah comes the Kollel guys who claim that taking out garbage is “beneath them”. I hear, it is a “Lakewood” shittah, but IMHO (and that of many Gedolim of the previous generations) Chazal would disagree.
My take is a bit different. Unfortunately, this is part of a larger problem of taking random stories and elevating them to Tziddukki Torah. Without context, the story must be taken literally and a kitchen receives the din of a ladies restroom. But most likely, what she intended to say was something along the lines of “I’ve got it this time”.
g_a_w:Out of that shittah comes the Kollel guys who claim that taking out garbage is “beneath them”. I hear, it is a “Lakewood” shittah
Honestly, I would have thought a thought like that would have been beneath you. I don’t know much at all about Lakewood (in America), but I’m sure that’s pure motzi shem ra.
Once again, you are “playing G-d” by making the Tachlis of every woman not to learn. Who are you to tell the Ribbono Shel Olam why He put a specific woman in this world? Perhpas “B’derech Klal” we can say they have a Netiyah (Chazal say so), but for an individual?
I am speaking in generalizations. The only difference is that I’m also questioning whether an urge to learn Torah is a valid netiya.
The only story I know about Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik is about the woman who came to him wanting to put on a tallis . He told her to try out a non-Kosher one for x amount of time to see if she would really get anything out of it. At the end of that amount of time, she came back and said that she had. He then sent her on her way, because it was clearly in her head being as the tallis wasn’t kosher.
If it is beneath “Kavod HaToyrah” to cook for one’s family (or one’s self), it is certainly beneath them to take out the garbage.
I don’t know why you pulled kavod haTorah into it. Is that part of the famous Lakewood shitta? My understanding of Rav Ahron Kotler’s Rebbitzen’s admonishment is that she objected to his being in the kitchen on the grounds that he was male, not a ben Torah. I could have misunderstood it.
squeak: “My take is a bit different. Unfortunately, this is part of a larger problem of taking random stories and elevating them to Tziddukki Torah. Without context, the story must be taken literally and a kitchen receives the din of a ladies restroom. But most likely, what she intended to say was something along the lines of “I’ve got it this time”.”
I know, right? My aunt says the same thing- she doesn’t let her bochurim in the kitchen because she’s got it under control and she doesn’t need them underfoot. If you want to argue that she’s not on the level of Rebbetzin Kotler or something like that, and that she had some kind of a deep meaning behind it, then fine, but it’s not a mitzvah min hatorah.
Remember R’ Chiya used to cook food for his wife (apparently not on Shabbos only)- he would make her one thing and she would say she actually wanted something else.
I am really annoyed that a simple story about Rav Aharon Kotlers Rebbitzen is being so badly misinterpreted by so many people here. Rav Aharon Kotler was kulo Torah he learned alk the time and lived Torah pure undiluted Torah. The shittah of Rav Aharon and his Rebbetzin was that a man (one who sits and learns) is supposed to totally dedicate himself to Torah and learn every free moment he has. It is the woman’s role to take care of the house and make sure that the man can focus totally on his avodas Hashem.
Now a lot has changed between those days and today but if you read about all the gedolim you will find that basically all of them learned almost every second they had and their wives made sure to take care of the house and kids. If you want to become a Reb Aharon Kotler you need a wife that supports that lifestyle
We aren’t talking todays kollel chevreh who spend lots of time at home helping with the kids and supper and what not. That’s all wonderful and nice but if some of these yungermans are capable of learning 18 hours a day and their wives are capable of handling all home duties and yet she doesn’t push herself to do so and takes her husband out of the beis medrash unnecessarily she will have to give a cheshbon for that one day.
Wiy it’s clear you’re not married.
I wanna be a man, mancub,
And stroll right into town
And be just like the other men
I’m tired of monkeyin’ around.
Oh, oo-be-doo,
I wanna be like you-hoo-hoo
I wanna walk like you, talk like you
woo-hoo-hoo…
Honestly, I would have thought a thought like that would have been beneath you. I don’t know much at all about Lakewood (in America), but I’m sure that’s pure motzi shem ra.
I’m trying to understand something that is not otherwise understandable. Lots of Torah comes out of Lakewood, and MOST who are there learning try to be Ovdei Hashem. Its the few that use Torah as their “excuse” (quoting stories like this one) who give the town a bad reputation.
I am speaking in generalizations. The only difference is that I’m also questioning whether an urge to learn Torah is a valid netiya.
OK. We can agree to disagree. Torah is the Yerusha of Klal Yisroel. A woman who learns it gets Schar, and brings one closer to the Ribbono Shel Olam. (All of these are givens). If you want to say she shouldn’t do so, that is your issue.
I don’t know why you pulled kavod haTorah into it. Is that part of the famous Lakewood shitta? My understanding of Rav Ahron Kotler’s Rebbitzen’s admonishment is that she objected to his being in the kitchen on the grounds that he was male, not a ben Torah. I could have misunderstood it.
So she is Stam an Am Haaretz who doesn’t know that men have been working in kitchens (including the Amoraim that I & WS mentioned earlier) for Dorei Doros? Your explanation may be plausable, but mine is being Dan L’Kaf Zechus.
Know what? I’ll be Dan L’Kaf Zechus that the story didn’t happen as told, and the Bochur was a slob who would mess up her kitchen. This was her nice way of saying “Slob Aroyis”.
Forget the Lakewood comment, I’ll retract that.
Interjection
Listen the world has changed all I’m saying is that the gedolim didn’t become gedolim by spending hours a day in the house and out of it doing chores.Read some gedolim biographies.
derech- the story you wrote about R JB is generally told over with R moshe.
Gavra
You’re good at twisting things. Are you a lawyer?
Toi: That’s because it’s a good story and it wouldn’t go over as well in certain Velts with the name R’ Soloveitchik as with R’ Moshe. But it happened with Rav Yoshe Ber. I have heard several firsthand testimonies to that fact.
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