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HuH? When I click on the above links, I stay right where I am!
fixed
I’m also curious – how do you post links to specific posts within a thread?
Click on the # sign under the post, then copy/paste from your browser’s address bar.
Exactly why I was concerned about the things that people were posting.That was my concern all along. The fact that technically someone CAN do something according to Halacha does not necessarily mean it is the right thing to do.
That seems to be what the Rav was telling you, and what I (l’havdil) was trying to say the whole time.
Thanks for giving us the update Lenny. I would advise that you might be better off going to Rabbanim for advice from here on out as opposed to anonymous posters.
I am glad you are proceeding with things and happy that you are going for marriage counseling. If in fact, things do not work out and the counselor advises you to give a Get, I hope that you will take him/her seriously and not insist on your right to stay married just because you can get away with it halachically.
Hatzlacha!
I am happy that you’re getting help resolving your marital problems and I agree with the rabbi that it’s futile to remain in a marriage if your wife wants a divorce. Saying that there reason you want to stay married is because of the reason listed in this thread, is like when my kids did something and I ask why did they do it They reply because everyone says it’s okay and I say if everyone jumped off the roof should you do it too. That is why the rabbi is telling you to forget about what anyone is saying. If you had said that the reason you want to stay in the marriage is for the kids or for financial reason I think he would be more accommodating.
Your wife was prepared with a written list of her grievances. You need to be prepared for example, when you meet the marriage counselor you may want to bring up your concerns concerning the children and finances. You need to be prepared so you will need to consult with a divorce lawyer and financial planer. They will help you make your case as to why divorce is not the best option. I also think that once you both decide to divorce you need to explain it to the children before the get is given.
Wishing you the best, it’s your choice, but I think your better off moving on with your life rather then live in an unhappy marriage.
Lenny- good luck with your marital issues. I’m just pointing out to you and any others who might find this interesting, that while there are many genuine sincere posters, there are also trolls. One does not always know the motives of all posters on anonymous forums. Everything said here, even if you find it informative, should be taken with a grain of salt.
Marriage is a complex topic. There is an intersection of religious, legal, individual, and societal norms. No one here is going to pithily summarize the halachik get process. There is no short and accurate summary.
Abba_S – +1
Lenny, I was referring to the Rav from the Beis Din, not to your local Rabbi. Ultimately, this is an issue which requires “Daas Torah”, and before you make a final decision, you should be consulting with a reliable experienced Rav regarding what you SHOULD be doing from a Torah perspective, not just what you could be doing, imho.
Lenny,
My advice for you is to go only to specific and well experienced Rabbanim for sholom bayis issues. For instance, Rabbi Y. Jacobs, Rabbi Gissinger and Rabbi S.B. Cohen are well experienced in marital conflict issues. They will advise you which therapists to go to. Many therapists (as well as rabbanim) are unfortunately either misguided or naive in these matters and will cause more harm than good. I personally have alot of experience in this matter and am aware of the many pitfalls out there for one who doesn’t approach the right people when seeking help.
Enough Divorces – that sounds like very wise advice.
Lenny, honestly, what concerns me is the fact that from what you wrote, it sounds like you were refusing to listen to the Rav who you went to. He is a Rav and he is the Rav who you went to discuss this matter with, and yet, you refused to listen to him (according to what you wrote).
I agree with what Abba_S said about that. You should be listening to what the Rav tells you to do and not what anonymous posters tell you to do.
Can you get away with it technically? Yes, but so what? There are many things that people can get away with, but it doesn’t make them the right thing to do. That is why we have Rabbanim – to guide us and tell us the right thing to do.
Limod Ulelomed
I will side with Lenny on this matter. Marriages can be worked on through professional help. It seems like there was never a serious mutual effort to work on the issues of this marriage. So to speculate at this point if the marriage is viable or not is premature. Lenny claims that the Rabbanim he spoke with are not optimistic that the marriage is viable; however, in truth rabbanim cannot determine this from one session with a couple. I would leave that determination for a therapist who has invested months of mutual therapy to conclude whether or not the relationship is viable or not.
Many therapists don’t have the required skills needed to address these serious situations. Also, many therapists are known to be biased in favor of women. It’s imperative to go to therapists who have a track record of saving marriages.
I think you marriage is salvageable and take Enough Divorcess’ advise and call Rabbi Simcha Bunim Cohen. He is a rabbi in Lakewood NJ and ask him for a referral to a good marriage counselor. You need a second opinion the Rabbi in Lakewood that you spoke to is a specialist in Jewish Law but a generalist when it come to Sholom Bias, family relationship, you now need a Sholom Bias specialist.
The reason I think your marriage is salvageable is because even though your wife has been complaining for years she has never taken the final step of trying to divorce you so with the right counselor your marriage could be saved. Is you family worth it? Call him for a referral. Wishing you the best, no matter what you do.
Lenny, I apologize if I misunderstood you. I was just going by what you wrote in your post, and the way I understood it. I am not against your trying to save your marriage, and I agree with those who say that you should attempt to go for counseling (although I also agree with those who say you have to be careful who you choose).
My point had nothing to do with that. I’m not going to repeat it, because it doesn’t sound like it’s relevant anymore.
Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen sounds like a great idea from what I know of him.
Hatzlacha!
Amongst other things, Rav S.B. Cohen is really nice and warm. I went to him once when I had a sheilah that I knew I was going to be emotional about, so I needed to go to someone really nice.
Lenny – I tried posting the number for you, but the moderators don’t allow phone numbers to be posted (which I totally understand).
It is in the Frum Lakewood phonebooks, so if you know anyone in Lakewood, you can ask them to look it up for you.
Hatzlacha!
Lenny from what you’ve written, it sounds like you’re spending your money buying everyone else’s approval with your charity. While no one except your wife and the rabbi knows what you’re really like at home. Having a life that looks good on the inside doesn’t mean that you’re pleasant to deal with and a courteous spouse always.
The good news is that controlling behavior can also be a violation of boundaries. Based on the information you provided, you are fixed in making your wife do as you wish despite her insistence of her suffering. None of us can tell her what she feels. None of us have the right to say that she feels otherwise. Even you, despite your desires to make her jump through extra hoops after 20 years of getting the courage to confront you, have an obligation to recognize and validate her feelings.
Based on the information here, it seems like you are at the very least crossing her boundaries that even a wife is permitted to assert and obviously needs for her own well-being.
Abba_S: It’s unfair to assume that you know that the marriage is salvageable when Lenny1970 has yet to account for his actions here.
The amount of change needed for an allegedly abusive or controlling partner to become a consistently appropriate spouse takes years, not months in therapy. Furthermore, even if he changes, the wife may have gone through too much trauma to continue investing in the relationship. Both could be better off with a clean break.
Also you speculate hope. Yet his wife may have finally had the means in place to make this decision. Maybe she was sick of praying for him to change. Maybe his wife could have waited until the children were old enough. It’s a common strategy to living with an abusive spouse when one has children at home, limited resources, limited options, high levels of stress, and lowered self-esteem.
Lenny1970: I appreciate you coming to the CR and expressing your feelings. At the same time, it concerns me that you do not seem to be considering the very points that your wife addressed. Instead, you’re providing irrelevant information in hopes of redemption. None of which speak to acknowledging the pain that your wife is going through.
Thus far you told us that while interrogating the rabbi, he didn’t have any examples to prove his case. Often an abusive individual will get defensive and demand proof, which can be overwhelming and leave one at loss for words. Of course one can say that an innocent person may get defensive. However, from the standpoint of a husband who cares for his wife, would he not genuinely seek to understand where he may have gone wrong?
Moreover, controlling behavior and abuse can be consistently covert. It’s not something quantifiable but over time one sees the effects that it has on one’s partner.
I’m speaking from personal, educational, and professional experience in this matter. Unfortunately there are many types of abuse, including financial, emotional, verbal, physical, and sexual. It is also possible that the rabbi was at a loss for words because some of the reasons were based on intimate detail and he was protecting your wife from further shame and embarrassment. Additionally, he may have promised her that he would not tell you about the intimate details that she confided in him. Omission does not mean that you’re innocent.
Thank you and Hashem-helping, I will cease engagement in this thread.
Lenny,
When there is any suspicion that there might be abuse involved, it is crucial to get a therapist who knows how to deal with an abusive situation. Whether or not you agree that abuse is involved.
It is absolutely crucial. A therapist who does not have knowledge and experience in this area can make the situation worse.
JM
Lenny, glad you found it. He’s a good person to speak to. Very warm, personable and wise. And experienced.
When you call, you will probably get his wife. If he’s not available, ask her what time to call back. He’s not home so much, but when he’s home, he’s usually available. I think there are specific times when he’s more likely to be home, so ask his wife.
Some of the posters here are talking really nasty. I don’t believe any poster has a right to pass judgment whether there is real abuse here without knowing any facts, especially when Lenny claims clearly that neither his wife nor his rabbi has cited any specific actions he has done that constitute abuse. Many times a wife may have her own personal issues (created from her childhood experiences) that cause her to interpret any slight assertiveness from her husband as abuse.
Lenny,
I’m happy to hear that you plan to meet with Rabbi S.B. Cohen; I’m sure he’ll recommend for you good experienced therapists. I personally recommend Dr. Chaim Horowitz from Lakewood, a veteran with over 30 yrs experience on marital conflict issues. I know that Rabbi Cohen holds highly of him.
Lenny,
I don’t know if there is any abuse going on or not, as I am not there.
Your wife feels that there is. You feel that there is not.
Since your wife feels that there is, the only therapist who can be relied on to handle the situation properly is one who understands and has experience with abuse. Whether or not *you* believe there is.
An additional point — in most (all? I don’t know) cases of abuse, the abuser truly does not believe that there is any abuse going on.
That does not mean that in your case there is. But it does mean that in your case there might be, without your being aware of it or seeing it for what it is.
You need a counselor who can help both of you deal with the fact that your wife feels that there is an abusive situation here.
For therapy to work, you both have to be open to changing. I don’t know your motivations, but *if* you are going into therapy to force your wife to change while you stay the same, perhaps you are using therapy as abuse (control).
Enough Divorces: “Some of the posters here are talking really nasty”
No one was being nasty, and no one passed judgment. Everything that anyone said was based on the facts as presented by Lenny.
All that JM613 said was that Lenny’s wife is CLAIMING there is abuse, and t/f they need to go to a therapist who is experienced in these matters. Whether his wife’s claims are true or not, she is making those claims, and THAT is why they are going to a therapist. T/f, they need to go to a therapist who is experienced in that.
There was nothing wrong with JM’s saying that, and it makes perfect sense to me.
But in any event, if he is going to Rav Simcha Bunim, I’m sure that Rav Simcha Bunim will guide him well and send him to the right therapist.
JM,
Abuse is a subjective term. It is not black and white. What someone might consider abuse can have more to do with his/her perception of the motives behind the actions and how it relates to him/her, than it has to do with the actual classifications of the specific actions.
Lenny, I am still not sure why you want to remain married to your wife, why you feel that it would be a good thing to not give her a get when that is what she wants?
Are you willing to honestly and openly address her concerns and not brush them aside as unimportant? As you have said, she reported different issues to your Rav over the years, but they do not seem to have been taken seriously and dealt with by you. That is the first thing you must do. If you do not come to a resolution of those issues, then the marriage will always be contentious. Who needs that?
Do you have small children still? Even older children at home? Do you follow the belief that an intact marriage is the best way to raise them? If so, then make it a happier marriage. You must be willing to give in on issues. If she is steadfast on her issues, then either you don’t see her as your partner or you don’t care for what she has to say.
Either way, you should get out. Find someone who does agree with the way you see things in life and make a life with them. Both you and your wife will be much happier. How many people on this site have said that you should give her a get if that is what a Rav tells you to do.
Why does it need to be that only if a Beis Din tells you are you willing to listen. Yes, they are the only ones who can order you to give it, but why can’t you take the advice of one Rav (you already have more than one who tells you to give her a get)? Are you going to go hopping from Rav to Rav until you find someone who agrees with you? So far, while not saying that your wife is right, everybody with whom you have spoken has said that you should give her a get.
So, again, what’s the point of staying in such a marriage?
“JM, Abuse is a subjective term. It is not black and white. What someone might consider abuse can have more to do with his/her perception of the motives behind the actions and how it relates to him/her, than it has to do with the actual classifications of the specific actions.”
I think that was JM’s point. That is exactly why they need a therapist schooled in abuse so that he can figure out whether or not there really is abuse here. It is precisely because it is not black or white that they need someone who can tell them if this is classified as abuse or not.
And no, I am not saying that he is abusive. I am saying that his wife thinks he is, and he thinks he is not. They are going to a therapist to deal with the fact that his wife thinks he is abusive and he thinks that he is not. T/f, they need a therapist who is experienced in this.
In any case, as I have pointed out before, I am not sure that there is a clear-cut definition of abuse. And it also may be self-defeating to get too caught up in the question of what the definition of abuse is and whether or not there is abuse here. The fact is that she FEELS that she is being abused, and if he really wants to stay in this marriage, he has to accept the fact that she feels that way and figure out what he can do differently.
I don’t think the point of going to the therapist is to see who is wrong and who is right and whether or not there really is abuse. The point is to work on the marriage. That means accepting his wife’s feelings (whether or not he agrees) and seeing what he can do differently. That doesn’t necessarily mean that he is doing something objectively wrong now; what it means is that if he wants the marriage to work, he needs to be open to seeing things differently and doing something differently. If a relationship is not working out and you want it to work, then you have to do something different, imho.
All this is for the therapist to discuss with him. But he needs a therapist who is experienced in these areas. That was JM’s point, period.
In any case, I trust Rav S.B. Cohen to suggest the right therapist if he feels that therapy is in fact, called for.
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