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LU – As a society we need the family unit which consists of a father, mother and children. Just look at the black community the disintegration of the family unit created most of their problems. Divorce just creates more problems. It lowers the standard of living of both parents possible resulting in them qualifying for government programs and many times takes the farther out of the children’s live.
Is Society better off with children growing up in a one parent home and with a lower standard of living or living in a 2 parent home with a higher standard of living but one of the spouses is controlling.
The question also is will the wife be better off married and living a middle class lifestyle or divorced living a lower income lifestyle. How will the children react will they side with their father blaming their mother for the lowering living standards when they will be heading to college or will they side with their mother that their father is controlling and abusive.
The Torah sanctions divorce in certain cases. Obviously, it’s not that simple and it’s not always the right thing to do, but it definitely is in some cases or it would not be allowed.
Lilmod, please read this written teshuva from the posek hador of our own generation, about a gittin dispute of a far worse situation than the OP and notice Rav Elyashiv’s psak:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/men-withholding-a-get#post-566490
Joseph – please pay attention to my posts and to what is going on here. There is no contradiction to this Teshuva and anything I have written. This Teshuva is discussing whether or not halachically the man can be forced to give his wife a Get. That is not the topic of discussion. No one is arguing with you on the halachos of Gitten. It is an area of halacha that I know almost nothing about, so I have no way of knowing whether you are right or wrong, and I have no interested in discussing, and I couldn’t care less in what situations a man is halachically obligated to give his wife a divorce.
The topic of discussion is whether or not according to Torah hashkafa/middos/values/, if Rabbanim and therapists have determined that a husband is abusive and controlling, and it would be in the best interests of the wife and children for the couple to get divorced, the husband should be encouraged or discouraged from giving a divorce.
Joseph, can you please do me a very big favor? When you have a chance (maybe on Chol HaMoed, since I assume you are very busy right now),reread this entire thread carefully, paying particular attention to my posts. (If you are married, I would suggest asking your wife to read it as well and getting her feedback).
I would really appreciate it if you would do that.
Thank you and good Shabbos.
Joseph, I just took my own advice and started to reread the thread (although I don’t have time to reread the whole thing now). I realize that there is something I wrote that you may have misunderstood. When I wrote that the Beis Din won’t refuse a divorce when one person wants it and the other doesn’t, I did not mean to imply that they can force the other person to grant the divorce.
I was referring to a situation in which the other party is convinced to grant the divorce even though he did not initially wish to do so. If the Rabbanim and/or therapists feel that the marriage is not viable and is harmful to any or all of the parties involved, they will try to encourage them to get divorced. How strongly they will do so will obviously depend on the precise circumstances and the people involved. And I am only referring to a situation in which conciliation was attempted and proven unsuccessful.
Again, I was never referring to the halachos of Gitten but rather the “hashkafos” (which obviously are also halacha, since being a mentch is also a halacha, albeit not a technical one)
Lilmod, the topic of discussion as asked by the OP is (to directly quote him) “whether her reasons for wanting a Get are halachically sufficient or not.” He was not asking whether he should be “encouraged or discouraged from giving a divorce” as you keep insisting. As an aside, in my opinion, the stage the OP is in would be where they’d be discouraged from jumping to divorce and encouraged to work on reconciliation.
Joseph In the case of R’ Elyashiv even though he ruled that the court can’t force the husband to give a get nor does he have a moral obligation to give the get, I still think he should give the get.
R’ Elyashiv ruling only pertains to this world, in the next world if he ever makes it to Gan Eden, guess who he is sitting next to? His wife who hasn’t changed and he is stuck with her to the end of time. Better to divorce in this world so he doesn’t have to put up with her in the next.
LU while I I wouldn’t say that you’re wasting your time in this discussion – as your posts are of interest to me and probably other members – I do want to point out one thing.
Reading yours and Joseph’s posts in this discussion and others, it’s clear that you (and most other posters) are interested in the way Torah relates to your own life, while Joseph on the other hand is only interested in what the Torah says (The Torah and the various poskim)
Just read every one of his posts. He barely ever responds to an argument other than to say “yes but this Rav says so and so”. On the rare cases where he seems to express his own opinions and beliefs he is actually half-quoting some source.
An example of this is his recent claim that it could be beneficial to bring back polygamy. Unless He just arrived from space, the only way he could say such a thing without even considering why everyone else find it revolting is if he just don’t care at all what the Hlacha is about. He doesn’t understand that it’s meant to instruct human people in their lives, not an army of robots.
It’s a little pointless (just a little) to bring up brilliant arguments and analyze situations when arguing with someone who doesn’t care at all about content, only Asur and Mutar.
(Joseph obviously I have nothing against you as a person. I only have issue with your attitude when it comes to Halachic discussions)
Abba, the reason he doesn’t want to divorce her is because he likes her and wishes to remain with her and, yes, put up with her indefinitely. Just as they both agreed to do when they both agreed to marry each other.
Person1, your comment is entirely inaccurate. I am very much interested in how the Torah relates to our lives, including in the topic at hand, and my comments very much reflect that.
When someone cites Shulchan Aruch or contemporary psak halacha from the posek hador, that precisely *is* guidance from the Torah on how to live our lives today.
I will have to try to look up the Teshuva in the original hebrew when I have a chance since it doesn’t make so much sense to analyze the words of something when reading a translation.
But, based on the way it is phrased here, I would assume that he is talking about a technical halachic obligation and I am assuming that is what the Teshuva is about.
Rabbanim definitely encourage men to give a Get when they feel that there is abuse, and it is a perversion of Torah to say otherwise.
Person1 – I have a higher opinion of Joseph than that. I think that he is capable of seeing reason and acknowledging when he is wrong. I’m not 100% sure yet if my opinion of him is justified, but I’m not giving up on him yet.
Joseph – “Lilmod, the topic of discussion as asked by the OP is (to directly quote him) “whether her reasons for wanting a Get are halachically sufficient or not.” He was not asking whether he should be “encouraged or discouraged from giving a divorce” as you keep insisting. As an aside, in my opinion, the stage the OP is in would be where they’d be discouraged from jumping to divorce and encouraged to work on reconciliation.”
Joseph, I will have to go back and reread the entire thread from beginning to end (as I advised you to do), but I really thought that your comments were in response to my comment to the effect that AFTER they have tried reconciliation, IF the Rabbanim and therapists feel that the marriage is not viable and that they should get divorced, and his wife still hates him and is insisting on a divorce, he should not be stubborn and refuse to give his wife a get for many years.
If your comments were in response to that, then the implication is that there is no reason he should feel that he should give a Get even in the above situation.
I definitely took your comments that way, and if that is not what you meant, I think that it is important that you clarify that and make it very clear, since I imagine there are others who understood your comments that way. Gofish and I both certainly did, so I imagine there are others. There are thousands of people reading this (possibly) and it is important that that be clarified so that people don’t come away with a really negative and incorrect view of Torah Judaism and/or Chareidi Judaism, which I am sure was not your intention.
As for your last point, I agree with you 100% that they are at stage in which they should be working on reconciliation and not jumping to divorce, and I thought that I had made that very clear. However, it is POSSIBLE that the reconciliation will not work and a divorce will be necessary and I felt that it was important that I point out to Lenny that if that happens he should not withold the divorce.
The reason I pointed this out now is because I don’t know Lenny and I will probably never have a chance to tell him this again. I did feel (although I can’t know for sure) that this MAY be something that he might need to hear. I did not think that he needed to hear that he should be attempting reconciliation and not jumping to divorce since that was something that was already clear to him.
Person1: “LU while I I wouldn’t say that you’re wasting your time in this discussion – as your posts are of interest to me and probably other members”
Thanks for the compliment!
Person1 – I think that Joseph does care about how the Torah applies to real life, as seen from his last posts. I think that he just didn’t realize how his posts could be understood.
Yekke2 – that’s a nice and true and important concept, but if you read this thread in its entirety you will see that it has no relevance here (although I could see how you might think so if you only read some individual posts and not the entire thing).
Sorry, don’t have much access at the moment and haven’t been reading properly.
I’ve probably been guilty of the same myself
Joseph – I just reread the entire thread and I think it is very clear what my point was. I would appreciate it if you would take the time to reread all my posts CAREFULLY. Thank you!
Joseph let’s take the topic of divorce as an example.
Here’s what a discussion between us should look like:
You: 99% of divorces are avoidable. Most divorces happen because women are interested in romance which is a non-jewish concept.
Me: 1. Did you make a research? 2. How are they avoidable? Clearly most coupless try counsling so what else should they do? 3. How is the idea of romance different than the idea of “Mechabda Yoter Migufo”.
You: 1. No but I trust Arav Miller who had much wisdom and experience 2. Fixing marriage takes a lot of effort which the women aren’t willing to take 3. Romance is about excitement and fancy restaurants which has nothing to do with respect and live.
This wouldn’t end here as I wouldn’t agree with this imaginery you. But this is an discussion.
Instead it goes like this: everyone tries to think and explain their side, while you simply keep bringing quotes from various rabanim to enforce your original statement.
Unfortunately you manage to dumb down the entire discussion, and instead of arguing about CONTENT everyone tries to argue whether Arav Miller is 1. A godel 2. As godel as… 3. Can we even decide who is greater (all worthy issues but not the ONLY issues in the life of a jewish person)
You treat issues and psaks like black boxes. You don’t care what’s inside. You leave the thinking to Rav Miller. But how did Arav Miller get to what he got? By walking around with open eyes and thinking, and surely not by always looking for a quote that’s the closest match to the situation at hand.
LU you’re welcome. You clearly put a lot thought into your posts and I appreciate that.
Person 1 Is society better off with a middle income family together but the wife is unhappy or divorced with both parents having a lower standard of living, the kids possibly in foster care or on government programs. Divorce doesn’t end the fighting it just takes to a different level. Is divorce in the best interest of the children? Is divorce even in the best interest of the wife as she gets a lower standard of living and still is fighting with her ex for years to come?
I believe both society and the family would be better off with the family intact. The problem is that there is no Shalom Bias classes before marriage. The classes that are given are attended by those who want to improve their Shalom Bias not the ones that really need them. By the time they seek help the wounds have festered until amputation (divorce) is the easiest solution. We live in a time when if something doesn’t work you throw it out and this is what is happening in many marriages.
“how can you make a spouse stay in a marriage he/she doesn’t want to stay in, etc…”
That sounds terrible and alarmingly controlling.
Lenny1970:
1. I would like to apologize again if I said anything to offend you. I was trying very hard not to, but sometimes when you are having a discussion that is a combination of theoretical/philosophical and practical AND when you are “talking” to more than one person at a time, it is very difficult to not inadvertantly offend someone. So I would like to apologize if I did, and I hope you are moichel.
2. I must say that I am impressed at the way you are taking this long drawn-out discussion/argument revolving around your life!!
3. Shkoyach for the way you are dealing with your situation. It sounds like you have it under control and really are trying to deal with it appropriately. And I do apologize if I unfairly judged you in that regard.
4. “Lilmod, you say “IF the Rabbanim and therapists feel that the marriage is not viable and that they should get divorced, and his wife still hates him and is insisting on a divorce, he should not be stubborn and refuse to give his wife a get for many years.” Lilmod, I agree.”
Great! So if you agree with me, maybe we can just close this thread now! Oh wait, I am still waiting for Joseph to acknowledge that I am right and to prove to the oilam that he is capable of admitting when he is wrong :). So as soon as Yomtov ends in New York and he admits I am right, then maybe we can close this thread!
5. After you speak to the Beis Din, I would love to hear what they say, and how in fact, Batei Dinim do deal with divorce issues (although I know they are not all the same – I just got that information from someone I know who is an expert on the topic).
6. Hatzlacha Rabba!!!
7. Moadim L’Simcha!
Joseph – I just want to ask you one thing, and I realized I need to make it clear what it is. From reading your posts, someone could come away with a very negative and completely untrue idea of Judaism. Specifically, they may think that if a husband is abusive or controlling of his wife, she is stuck in the marriage forever, unless there is a witness of physical abuse. Since abuse almost never involves physical abuse and since it would be almost impossible to find a witness in those rare cases in which there is physical abuse, this would mean that a victim of abuse (of any sort) would almost never be able to get divorced.
This is far from the truth! In nearly all cases in which a woman feels that she is being abused, she IS able to obtain a divorce. Additionally, even in a case in which there is no abuse but just personality differences that render the marriage impossible despite the couple having attempted marriage therapy and spoken to Rabbanim who tried to help them, most of the time they are also able to get divorced.
I know all this for a fact. I do not know just a few cases (as you stated). Most of the guys who have been suggested to me for the past decade or so were divorced, and I check out their situations extensively!!!! Whenever a divorced guy is suggested to me, I usually speak to either the marriage therapist and/or the Rabbi/s who were involved in the divorce. That means that I have been researching divorce in the Frum world for the past decade!
Additionally, my mother is in the middle of writing a book on the topic and has been researching the topic for well over a decade, including interviewing numerous divorced women. I asked her about this topic on Erev Yomtov, and she told me that in these types of cases (the wife wants a divorce and the husband doesn’t but there is no physical abuse), they are usually able to get divorced since the Rabbanim and/or therapists usually are able to convince the husband to do so. She did mention that in those cases in which the husband does not agree to do so (hopefully, the minority of cases), they have to “buy him off” and give him a lot of money, but in any case, they are nearly always able to get a divorce (and usually without major extortion).
The only “sources” you have been bringing do not contradict any of the statements above, but someone reading this thread may receive the incorrect impression that they do. All they show is that Jews believe in making marriage a priority and trying to make it work whenever possible. That does not contradict anything that I wrote.
That should be obvious, but may not be to everyone, so I would appreciate it if you could acknowledge that fact, for the sake of our readership who may inadveretently receive the wrong impression.
If you can’t do so, then I appreciate it if the moderators could close this thread because I think there is no point in continuing it anymore. I think it accomplished everything it was meant to that it could.
lilmod, a bit of humility is in order and you should acknowledge you are very mistaken on this issue. I brought you Rav Miller and you retort that you disagree with Rav Miller. I point out that the Rov was speaking from a perspective of seven decades as a community pulpit Rov dealing with all sorts of family issues including gittin, and as a godol hador, and you counter that you have some divorced acquaintances they tell you otherwise. So I cite Shulchan Aruch paskening that eyewitness proof is required, and even then there are only a small number of grounds that halacha says permits unilateral petition for divorce, and you respond we don’t pasken like Shulchan Aruch. Really? So I quote you a contemporary psak din written by the posek hador of our own generation, Rav Elyashiv, of a real situation in our own lifetimes where the husband acted abnormally, the wife hated him and separated from him for six years and is now asking for a Get, and Rav Elyashiv unambiguously ruled that not only isn’t he forced to give her a divorce but he doesn’t even have an obligation to give it to her. So you now come back telling us that you’re experienced about contemporary gittin matters since you’ve been dating divorced men for ten years and research their cases real well so, shoin, you’re a researcher offering your own boich svaras who knows better than psak halacha explicitly stated in the Torah, Chazal, the Shulchan Aruch, thousands of years of written psak halacha that all state that a unilaterally demanded divorce is not granted barring extremely extenuating circumstances that halacha specifically states entitles a spouse to a divorce.
You said you wanted to read Rav Elyashiv’s psak in the original loshon kodesh. It is in Kovetz Teshuvos volume I #174. Please read it prior to responding to my comment.
Your question to me regarding a hypothetical situation where the husband has no obligation to divorce his wife but the rabbonim recommend that he do so nevertheless is an interesting question that required more thought. This is my thoughts about it, while noting it is hypothetical and thus subject to situation-specific thought were it applicable in a real life situation. Assuming the rabbis dealing with it were yirei shamayim who don’t cater their actions to modern crowd pleasing laymen demands, then I think the husband would be wise to accept their recommendation. (I’m much more skeptical of secularly-trained therapists making gittin recommendations. In the secular world divorce is considered par for the course that is recommended far far more than appropriate.) That being said, you acknowledged it is a situation where there is no obligation to divorce. That being the case, while it would be smart of him to divorce, should he unwisely elect not to do so, he is committing no sin and is excersicing his Torah granted right to remain married. Just as in the case Rav Elyashiv dealt with, where it was far more severe circumstances, and nevertheless the ruling was he was within his rights (which he exercised) to decline to divorce.
Joseph, a. Rav Miller was never the Gadol Hador. B. He was a communal rabbi for less than sixty years, not seven decades. C. His pulpits were small shuls in Massachusetts and in Brooklyn. Unless these s.all shuls were havens of marital unhappiness, what was his basis for making the seemingly absurd statement that 99? of all divorces are unnecessary? How many divorces was he involved with?
Joseph:
1. Thank you very much for responding to my question in your second post!
2. As seen by your first post, you are still completely missing my point. I never said that we don’t posken like the Shulchan Aruch. I made it clear the entire time that I do not know the halachos and I am not talking about the halachos. I am talking about what the Rabbanim do l’maaseh in a situation in which a get can not be forced halachically but they feel that it would be a good idea, as well as what the appropriate recourse would be for the husband in this situation (as you discussed in your second post).
3. If you read my posts carefully, you would see that there was no need for your first post – only for the second post – since your first post had nothing to do with anything I have been writing. I have been referring to the scenario in your second post the entire time.
4. “lilmod, a bit of humility is in order” I am extremely hurt and offended by that sentence. I would not have expected that from you.
5. You wrote that I said that we don’t posken like the Shulchan Aruch. I never said any such thing, and I am offended that you would think that I said such a thing. I said that I am discussing what happens l’maaseh. L’maaseh, many people get divorced nowadays without having witnesses to physical abuse (in most cases, I don’t think there even is physical abuse, but there certainly are no witnesses) even though it was only the wife who wanted the Get and not the husband. The Beis Din may not be able to force the husband to give a Get (as per the Shulchan Aruch you quoted) but he can be convinced or pressurred to do so (by the Rabbanim involved or his wife or others) and that is what happens many if not most of the time.
6. I wouldn’t be so quick to say “the husband is committing no sin”. There are many areas of halacha. The fact that Beis Din can’t force someone to do something does not mean that it is not an aveira. He is being over on “V’ahavta l’raecha kamocha.” by forcing his wife to stay in what is probably an abusive marriage. (I’m assuming that we are talking about respectable trustworthy Rabbanim who have a good reason for recommending the divorce and that his reasons for not giving one are based on stubborness, selfishness and/or spite. There may be other scenarios, but those are not the ones I am referring to. I am also not referring to a case in which he sincerely thinks things can work out and he tries for a limited period of time, and when he sees it’s futile does give the Get within a reasonable amount of time.)
Joseph, I really was hurt by your post. You have never spoken to me that way before and I was surprised by it. Did you think I was saying something against Halacha, and was that the reason for it? Or were you offended by something I wrote? If so, I would appreciate it if you could let me know so I could apologize. And I would appreciate an apology from you. thanks!
lilmod, sorry for that barb, I didn’t actually mean that criticism (which wasn’t justified in any event) but rather was frustrated by your seeming implication when responding to others above in this thread that unless I switched my views on this issue to yours, that your opinion of me is dependent on my agreeing I’m wrong. That coupled a bit with my sense that your views on this topic are more strongly informed by the popular zeitgeist of advocates on this topic than of the halachic view on the subject which is abundantly clear in the shailos u’teshuvos seforim. And my (likely mistaken) impression that you were somewhat dismissive of S”A and teshuvos I presented in their applicability to the discussion. In any event I apologize for that zinger.
“Gofish – I don’t think that Joseph is as bad as he sounds. From what I “know” of him, he actually seems like a very nice person, and I don’t think he ever engages in personal insults (which is hard to avoid around here) even when he feels strongly about something.”
“You have never spoken to me that way before and I was surprised by it.”
lilmod ulelamaid, why are you surprised?? Like many people mentioned earlier, some people make Judaism look terrible because of the way they use the Torah. Joseph is one of those individuals. It’s not that hard to see that…
I also think at some point in the thread you changed the discussion to a scenario where there was no obligation to divorce, but it was a good idea nonetheless, from the earlier focus of the discussion. In any event the Halacha indicates that if he sincerely seeks shalom bayis, even if his pursuit of that might be unreasonable in light of his spouse’s stubbornness in demanding a divorce, then he is committing no aveira and, rather, the “V’ahavta l’raecha kamocha” obligation is upon her to return to his home and work on making the marriage work as best as possible. This point is best exemplified by Rav Elyashiv’s teshuva that I cited above (and would still suggest you read and provide feedback here on) of the case where they were separated for six years and Rav Elyashiv ruled he had no obligation to give a Get.
Joseph from your recent posts you sound like a very nice person. I should have been more respectful to you earlier. Sorry. (I still think your opinions are crazy though. No offense)
lilmod ulelamaid- “He is being over on “V’ahavta l’raecha kamocha.” by forcing his wife to stay in”. Somewhere in Israel there is a husband with kids whose wife died, are YOU obligated to marry this guy becuase V’ahavta l’raecha kamocha, after all the husband needs a wife and the kids need a mother. Also I think your parents want you to get married, perhaps even Joseph want you married. See how many people you will make happy by marrying. Please note that neither the husband has the obligation to divorce nor do you have an obligation to marry the widow in this case. This also should not be interpreted as condoning the single lifestyle.
That being said there is something called “Doing the right thing”.For example if you are in the crosswalk you have the right of way, but if a car is bearing down on you at great speed, you yield to the car as you are not less dead when the car hits you for being Dead Right. Similarly in this case Lenny should make some concession even though he doesn’t have to, in order to keep the marriage intact. I think the wife in this case is happy with the marriage, after all it has lasted over 20 years, she is just unhappy with some of her husband’s actions and I hope they can resolve their differences and have a long, happy and productive marriage together.
Divorce is a blood sport which each side trying to hurt the other and get the better deal. Under current Jewish law with the exception of those who practice polygamy, permission from both husband and wife is needed in order for a GET to be given.If the wife refuses the husband need 100 Rabbis to agree that the GET should be given. Then the get is given in escrow and the wife can pick it up whenever she wants. If the husband refuses she must get the Jewish court to force the husband to give the Get.When the husband come to court he MUST CLAIM he wants to reconcile with his wife and he is given another chance. If he says the truth that he is refusing to give the get out of spite he loses and will be ordered to give the Get.
Joseph, I will be leaving for Shabbos soon and probably won’t be able to post until after Yom Tov. Before I go, I wanted to let you know that I did post an apology to you. My first few versions were deleted by the moderators, and I am hoping my last one will go through, but since I don’t know if it will or not, I wanted you to know that I did post an apology to you. If it does goes through, you should also know that the original version was better.
Additionally, I want you to know that I have been thinking about the things you have written about divorce & marriage, and I am starting to understand your point, and it has given me a different perspective on the matter. I think this is an important perspective to have, certainly in addition to the perspective I had previously if not instead of it.
I know that sounds funny after I was arguing with you so much, but between the fact that certain things became clearer to me in your more recent posts and the fact that I have been thinking a lot about what your point is, I have reached that conclusion. I will post more explaining what I mean after YT, B’ezras Hashem.
In any case, I think it is very good for me to have that perspective, so I appreciate your introducing it to me. (although this does not mean that I think that I was wrong either).
Thank you very much and have a good Shabbos and Yom Tov.
“And my (likely mistaken) impression that you were somewhat dismissive of S”A and teshuvos”
Chas V’Shalom! I hope that wasn’t implied in anything I said.
“This point is best exemplified by Rav Elyashiv’s teshuva that I cited above (and would still suggest you read and provide feedback here on) of the case where they were separated for six years and Rav Elyashiv ruled he had no obligation to give a Get.”
Thanks for providing the source. I will try to do so as soon as I can locate a copy of the Sefer.
Joseph, I guess the moderators didn’t like my revised apology, but at least they let me inform you that it existed. I also wanted you to know that I had also expressed my appreciation for your apology which I thought was very nicely expressed and was extremely impressed by (I hope they let this go through!)
“but rather was frustrated by your seeming implication when responding to others above in this thread that unless I switched my views on this issue to yours, that your opinion of me is dependent on my agreeing I’m wrong.”
It’s not. I apologize for implying that it is.
lilmod, ty. I get it despite the moderation.
Joseph, I just checked out the website you had recommended to Lenny. It seems to have a lot of “bizui Gedolim” on it. I know that is something you feel strongly about, so I assume that you hadn’t noticed that part.
“your seeming implication when responding to others above in this thread that unless I switched my views on this issue to yours, that your opinion of me is dependent on my agreeing I’m wrong. “
Clarification: I did not mean to imply that you have to agree with me, or that my opinion of you is dependent on that, and I’m sorry for making it sound that way. My point was that I thought there is a misunderstanding and that we do agree on the basic issues.
I think that we agree on the following (please correct me if I’m mistaken):
1. Marriage is something very important, and people should not get divorced too easily.
2. When you get married, you should be fully committed to doing your utmost to make the marriage work and you should not be considering getting divorced.
3. If there are problems, the couple should do everything they can to try to work it out, and should not even think about divorce unless and until there really is no other option.
4. If the Rabbanim involved tell the husband that he should give his wife a Get (whether or not he can be forced to do so halachically), it would be a good idea for him to comply.
We disagree on the following:
1. you don’t seem to feel that he is doing something wrong by refusing to give the Get in such a case, and you even seem to feeel that she is doing something wrong by not trying to make the marriage work.
Even here, I don’t think we disagree on the principles involved. I think what we disagree on is what is actually likely to be going on here.
Your assumption seems to be the following: The husband obviously realizes the sanctity of a marriage and the importance of shalom bayis, and that is why he does not want to get divorced. His wife, on the other hand, clearly does not realize how important marriage is and that is why she is not willing to try to work things out. Therefore, he is really in the right for trying to hold on to the marriage and she is clearly in the wrong for wanting to break up the marriage.
I would guess that your assumptions regarding what is going on here are based on the fact that it is inconceivable to you that a husband would be abusive to his wife (and that’s why she wants to get divorced) or that he could possibly be motivated by anything other than a sincere desire to make the marriage work out. Additonally, you probably feel very strongly about shalom bayis and making a marriage work and feel that any relationship could be worked out and there is no reason to even think about divorce except in rare circumstances.
Which is beautiful.
I, on the other hand, had been assuming (rightly or wrongly) that in most (or at least many) such cases, the wife wants to get divorced because there is ABUSE and it has been going on for many years and she tried finding a way to work things out for many years, and they went to therapy and NOTHING has helped and her husband will continue abusing her if she remains married to him, which is the reason the Rabbanim recommended they get divorced. And if he refuses to give a Get even though the Rabbanim advised him to and even though their marriage can’t work out, it is out of spite, stubborness and/or selfishness.
My guess (please correct me if I’m wrong) is that you would also agree that in such a case, he should give her a Get. Maybe I’m wrong, but I can’t imagine that someone like you would think that it is okay for someone to be abused. It just doesn’t seem your type.
So I think that our only point of disagreement was regarding what is likely to be going on here.
I would appreciate it if you would let me know if you agree with my analysis or not. Thanks!
I agree with your analysis, including that in such a case he should give a Get, but don’t necessarily agree with your attribution of my assumptions. (And don’t worry about mechila. It isn’t necessary.)
“but don’t necessarily agree with your attribution of my assumptions.”
meaning?
In any case, I’m very happy to hear that you think he should give a Get in such a case, because that hadn’t been clear to me originally, and that’s what I (and I think others) were upset about.
“(And don’t worry about mechila. It isn’t necessary.)”
Thanks. but I’m confused – where did the post go where I asked you for mechila? It seems to have disappeared! And it must have been there at some point, or how would you have known that I asked you for mechila? Did the moderators post it and then delete it?
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