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Joseph, so maybe l’maaseh what happens in most cases is that the Beis Din convinces the husband to give his wife a get. Or as Lenny said, maybe once they get a civil divorce, that is grounds for a halachic divorce.
As I wrote to Lenny, I think that in general, men who refuse to give their wives a get are very much looked down on, and I think that most Rabbanim do consider personality conflicts to be a reason to get divorced and will try to convince the husband to get divorced.
A civil divorce has no halachic significance or relevance. A civil divorce does not create a halachic obligation to divorce when there otherwise was no halachic obligation to divorce. And a civil divorce cannot be used to circumvent halacha to obtain a Get when there is no halachic obligation to grant a Get. Unilaterally moving out of the marital home or forcing one’s spouse to unwillingly leave the marital home, also, does not create an obligation to divorce where there otherwise was no halachic obligation to do so.
The term aguna does not apply to a wife who wants and requested a Get but her husband has no halachic obligation to give it to her and had chosen not to. Similarly such husbands are not doing anything wrong. You are confusing them with a husband who DOES have an obligation to give a Get, as halachicly ruled upon by beis din after a gittin case was heard, and nevertheless illegitimately refused to issue it to her despite his halachic obligation to do so.
Also note that Rabbeinu Gershom granted Ashkenazic wives the right to decline accepting a divorce that her husband wants to give her and choosing to remain married to him despite his wishing to divorce her. And barring specific circumstances that gives him the halachic right to overrule her objections, she is fully legitimately entitled to choose to decline accepting the divorce and insisting on remaining married to him.
Joseph, so maybe it’s the first thing I wrote them – that the Rabbanim convince the guy to give the Get.
I’m not disputing you on the halachos you quoted, since I never studied the topic. But my point is that even if what you are saying is true, there is obviously more to it than that. From reading your posts, one could get the incorrect and very negative impression that Jewish women are held captive in bad marriages, which is very far from the truth, since there are very few agunos. Most people who want to get divorced are able to do so, and the Rabbanim do not tell people that personality conflicts are not grounds for divorce.
Lenny, thanks for the tip about being “dan l’kaf zchus” but I don’t think that it is relevant here for many reasons. I am too tired to go into it at length, but for one thing there are two people here – you and your wife. I have at least as much an obligation to judge her favorably as I do you. Actually, what I did was to withhold judgment and to assume that it could be either way and that I have no way of knowing which it is. I believe that was the appropriate response to the situation.
Perhaps more importantly, my point was to help you. You are turning to us for advice. You stated this example as though it is proof that you are right. I am pointing out to you that it is possible for such a thing to be controlling, so that is not necessarily proof that you are not controlling. Since your wife and Rabbi did consider it to be controlling and apparently did not consider it to be the best “chinuch-move”, my advice to you is that it would be worthwhile for you to consider their point of view. It is important for the husband and wife to be in agreement on chinuch issues even if they do end up getting divorced.
Additionally, it is important to keep in mind that “controlling” and “abuse” are not black-and-white terms. To you, the word “controlling” has extremely negative connotations which you do not want to associate with any of your actions. Without using the word controlling, it is important for you to realize that it is possible for someone to disagree with your chinuch methods. That person may be right or wrong. It is probably not a clear-cut issue. If that person is the mother of your children, it is a good idea to try to figure out why she thinks that way and to have a discussion about it, with the help of a mediator/therapist.
“Lilmod, are you sure when u say ” in most cases is that the Beis Din convinces the husband to give his wife a get.” Per my discussions with a Beis Din in Lakewood, NJ earlier today, as long as one person wants to stay in the marriage, they would at least require counseling and still not necessarily order a Get. Even if both people wanted a divorce, they would try talking them out of it. I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m just saying that absent a halachic reason for a Get, my understanding is most beis din would not try to “convince” anyone to give a Get. But I could be wrong.”
First of all, I was talking about after they have tried counseling and tried to work things out and not been successful. I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear.
I am not 100% sure, but I do think that if one person wants to get divorced and the other doesn’t and they go for marriage counseling, if the marriage therapist thinks they are not compatible (not necessarily because one of them is abusive. It can be because they are just not a match personality-wise), he/she will try to convince the other to get divorced. I definitely know of one case like this. I am assuming that most Rabbanim will do the same (after the couple has tried marriage counseling).
I definitely know of cases where only one person initially wanted the divorce, so apparently someone convinced the other person (whether it was the marriage therapist, Rav or the person’s conscience). I definitely know that there are Rabbanim and therapists who think that lack of personality compatibility can be a good reason to get divorced (if they tried to work it out and go for therapy and were unsuccessful).
We can’t possibly know what is really going on, but I see it as 3 possible scenarios
1. wife is delusional/paranoid
2. husband is abusive/controlling
3. or something in the middle- bits of both of these but in a non-pathological way, maybe husband has a more domineering/stronger personality, wife is not assertive but has grown to resent it, so sees everything in a more sinister light. If this is the case, then hopefully counseling for both can help and avoid the divorce.
If the wife is convinced that the husband is abusive for either reason 1 or 2, then it is much more serious.
The case that I knew of, where they lived in the same house, did not have a “Happy ending”
after about a year and a half of the couple sleeping in seperate rooms, the kids started to take sides and began to take sides especially towards the mother as she was the one who slept in the living room. Shabbos was the worst as during the week usually one person could leave and not come back until coast was clear.
The woman began to go OTD (I am sure many will say “I told you so” ) as she blamed rabbis for the situtation and )Shabbos and Yom Tov were the worst days as they were more forced to be together) and she hired a lawyer (She said she was done having children and didnt care about the get anymore). She moved out and the kids spent their time at various parents homes. They both hired lawyers and now both are broke and the kids are messed up.
Nothing was gained, It would have been alot better for everyone if the get was just given and people moved on
Lenny, these halachos are intricate and complicated. There aren’t many websites specializing in these halachas in English. (One site I referenced that does deal with it wasn’t posted by the mods.) Hence I referenced Shulchan Aruch. But Rabbi Dovid Eidensohn in Monsey can answer all of your questions. He also has a “Shalom Bayis Beth Din” that you can lookup. His goal is restoring a couple’s shalom bayis.
Also note that, despite its unfortunate prevalence, it is forbidden for a Jew to bring a divorce dispute to a non-Jewish/civil court (as it’s forbidden in any dispute, for that matter.) If a civil case is filed contrary to halacha, a beis din could potentially freeze the issuance of a Get until the offending party withdraws the civil case and undoes any gains obtained there.
Lenny, both of you need a counselor who is not biased to one side. The wrong counselor can do even more damage sometimes, especially if he/she is making conclusions from only one side of the story. I do think it is great that you are trying to get her to go for joint counseling. Perhaps by starting to go by yourself, even if she does not agree, will show her that you do care about her issues and may soften her stance. Maybe you will learn something about yourself and your relationship with her, and you can make changes that might help the situation.
Hatzlocha to you.
Lenny, I am very glad for you that you seem to have a found a direction to go in to try to resolve the matter. I definitely think that both going to a Beis Din and trying to get marriage therapy are excellent ideas, and I am very glad for you that you are doing both.
However, there is something that is very much bothering me about this situation as I understand it (and it is entirely possible that I misunderstood something). The way I understand things is that your wife has been miserable for the past 20 years. She hates you and considers you to be controlling and abusive. Whether or not you feel you are controlling and abusive, she clearly does, she is miserable, and she hates you. So why do you want to stay in this marriage? And why are you trying to force someone to stay in a marriage if she is miserable? And if that is what you are trying to do, doesn’t that seem controlling to you?
I am definitely in favor of marriage therapy. I definitely think that a couple should not get divorced until they have tried marriage therapy (in most cases, at least), and I am glad to hear you are going that route. Hopefully, you will find a good therapist who is able to hear and understand both sides and can figure out if your marriage is salvageable or not and advise you accordingly.
What makes me nervous is the fact that over the course of the past few years I have known several cases in which the couple separated but the get dragged on for years (in two of these cases, it hasn’t happened yet!) Off-hand, I can think of three cases like that (and there may have been more that I forgot about). I don’t know the details in any of these cases, but I do know that in at least two of these cases, the wife wanted the divorce and the husband didn’t. I am fairly certain that is the case in the third situation as well.
When I heard about these situations, I was shocked! Again, I don’t know the details, but something seems very wrong to me about a couple being separated for several years without a Get, especially if one side definitely wants the Get and the other is holding out.
I don’t know the details in these situations, and I guess it’s really not my place to judge. But I do think that this is a situation one should really try to avoid being in, and I hope that you don’t end up in such a situation. Hopefully, the Rabbanim and therapists you deal with will be able to guide you appropriately, and you will reach a resolution one way or the other, and hopefully it won’t take several years.
Hatzlacha and Gmar Chasima Tova!
Lenny, if I misunderstood something, I apologize, and I hope you are moichel me. I was just writing according to my understanding of the situation and I hope you aren’t offended by anything I wrote. I realize that I may not have understood the situation correctly, and if that is the case, please disregard my comments.
lilmod, it is virtually always better to work to avoid divorce, especially with children, then to simply give it. Even if one spouse wants it while the other wishes to continue the marriage. In the vast majority of cases divorce is avoidable and unnecessary. And in the majority of cases divorce is worse than remaining in a not-great marriage. Many many divorced people deeply regret having sought to get divorced.
Indeed Jewish Law discourages divorce and Jewish Law gives the spouse desiring to continue the marriage the right to do so, in most cases, even if it is against the wishes of the other spouse. Very frequently Jewish Law rules that a request for a divorce is denied. In fact that is the default. A divorce in Torah Judaism requires cause to be proven. There is no divorce-on-demand in Halacha. Even the non-Jewish world, lhavdil, until very recently denied divorce petitions unless cause was satisfactory proven in the eyes of the law. New York became the last state to introduce no-fault divorce only in 2010. This idea that a spouse is entitled to a divorce simply because she wants it (or for reasons other than halacha considers valid cause for divorce) is a purely modern goyish concept that has no basis in Torah Judaism.
Very important:
When there is a concern that there is abuse present, it is very important to find a therapist who has training and experience in the area of abuse.
Lenny, if you are serious about salvaging your marriage, you have to be willing to do that. Marriage counselors who do not have abuse training and experience can make such situations worse. Sometimes much worse.
Joseph, I agree that it is better to remain married if possible. However, it is only better to remain married if you actually have a marriage. If two people happen to be living in the same house and don’t have a Get, that doesn’t mean they have a marriage. There is no point in pretending to be married if you are not really married. If your differences can be worked out so that you actually have a marriage, then that is the best option. But if they can’t, they are supposed to get divorced. The idea that divorce is wrong is a goyish idea, not a Jewish idea. According to the Torah, you are supposed to get divorced if you don’t have a good marriage. There was a Tanna or Amora (I forgot who, but I’m sure you know who I’m talking about) who got divorced because he didn’t like the way his wife treated him.
As the Bostoner Rebbetzin a”h (whose parents got divorced when she was a kid) used to say, “Better 4 happy people than 2 miserable people.”
It is simply not true that in the Jewish world, irreconcilable differences are not considered a reason to get divorced. People get divorced because of irreconcilable differences all of the time. It is not a Torah hashkafa for people to be miserable. If a marriage is not working out, you are supposed to get divorced. If it can be worked out, great, but if not, you are supposed to get divorced.
And it is certainly not Torah hashkafa for a couple to be divorced for several years without having a get. And that is definitely not good for the kids.
And I don’t agree that in the majority of cases, people regret having gotten divorced. Most divorced people I know (including my mother) are very happy that they got divorced. Many of them go on to get remarried and build beautiful homes. Many don’t get remarried and are happier being unmarried than being in a bad marriage.
Deciding to get divorced is a very difficult decision to make, especially for women and especially for women with kids. It is not a decision that people make lightly. Most people (at least until recently) only get divorced after thinking about it and trying to make things work for many years. If a woman still wants to get divorced after 20 years (and several kids) of trying to make things work, there is a good reason for it, and it is not something to take lightly. If someone has felt for 20 years that her husband is controlling and abusive and her husband was not even aware of this, that is a serious problem.
You wrote that in the majority of cases, divorce is worse than remaining in a not-great marriage. I am not sure what you mean by a not-great marriage. Most people don’t get divorced because their marriage is not great. If they did, you would probably be right. But most people who get divorced do so because their marriage is TERRIBLE. I am not referring to people who get divorced after a year because they had a terrible Shana Rishona and they didn’t realize that was normal and that there are ways to work things out. It is possible that in the younger generation, people are getting divorced too quickly and are not trying harder to work things out, or were never given the tools to work things out. I don’t know if that is a common scenario or not, but it is not what I am talking about. I am talking about people my age and older who were married for many years and got divorced because they really did not have a marriage, and they did try to work things out for many years, but it was an impossible situation.
Perhaps you wrote what you did because you are referring to those people who do get divorced too quickly and could have worked things out, or people who got divorced because their marriage was not-great (but it was okay). But that does not sound like that is the situation here at all. We are talking about someone who has been miserable for 20 years and hates her husband and feels he is controlling and abusive!! What kind of marriage is that, and what is the point in pretending that it is a marriage? And why should this poor lady continue living in Gehenom? Of course, if any of those facts can be changed with the help of a good marriage therapist, that is great. But if they can’t be, it is definitely time to move on.
I don’t think this marriage was TERRIBLE for ALL the years of the marriage. When they got married they were love birds and unless she was a great actress I would say most of the years of marriage was good or she would have wanted a divorce sooner. What I think happened was that the Rabbi’s wife notice she was sad and asked what the problem was. The Rabbi wanting to solve the problem and needed to convince the husband of the seriousness of his actions and told him that this could result in divorce.
Defining verbal abuse is harder, for example, a parent that says ” My house my rules”, is he abusive or just setting down rules. What I think happened is husband said something that the wife found offensive. The wife didn’t convey her resentment to the husband, so it kept happening. Eventually her resentment boiled over and she wants a divorce. What is needed is better lines of communication. The problem is that the parents can’t air their grievances in front of the children and with both parent working it doesn’t leave much private time to talk.
Abba_S, He said that she has been complaining to their Rabbi for over 20 years that he is controlling and abusive. He also said that she hates him. It is quite clear that she has been miserable for a very long time. Women generally take many years to actually get divorced even if they are miserable. It is a very difficult decision to make, and a woman’s natural tendency is to feel that she should try to make things work and not get divorced too quickly even if she is miserable.
“When they got married they were love birds” Who says??!! Many (if not most) people who get divorced were miserable from the beginning.
I agree with you that there does seem to be a communication problem here, although there is no way for us to know who is to “blame” for that (I don’t mean blame literally – no one chooses to have a hard time with communication and I think that it is a problem that everyone has to some extent). The question is if the communication problem can be resolved at this point, and also if that is the only issue. Hopefully those are questions that the marriage therapist will be able to answer.
Joseph, I’ve asked before and you’ve never responded. If civil court is Assur, why are your heroes, the Satmars, been slugging it out in civil court for years?
Lenny,
It sounds like you are in a tough spot and I really feel for you.
I would like to offer my two cents. It may or may not be appropriate for your situation, so you can take it or leave it, but from what I’ve read so far I think it may help. Before I start I would just tell you that a marriage counselor would likely say things similar to what I’m saying, and I know that because I’m married to one.
It sounds like the situation you’re in is a gridlock. In a traffic gridlock, everyone thinks he has the right of way (and he may very well be correct), and therefore each person keeps moving forward, making the gridlock worse. The only way to ease up the gridlock is if at least one person takes a step back to let someone else go first.
In your situation, each one of you thinks you’re right, and that the other one is being irrational, and it’s the other one’s fault that the marriage isn’t working (and you may very well both be right!). However, if each one of you keeps pushing forward, the gridlock will only get worse. The only way to ease it up is for at least one of you to take a step back. As far as how exactly to do that, I can’t tell you, but a marriage counselor should be well equipped to facilitate that in your specific situation.
Another point: There’s a very popular video somewhere on the internet called “It’s Not About the Nail.” Though it’s not exactly the same as what I’ve been saying, it does offer a very good demonstration of both ineffective and effective ways of approaching relationship problems.
Lenny, I thought that I made it clear that I have no way of knowing. I was simply trying to say that it may be a possibility, and one that it may be kidai to be prepared for.
I hope that I didn’t come across as too harsh – I was trying very hard not to, but when I had to respond to other posters, I ended up having to come across stronger than I had wanted to.
There is another point that I was thinking about as I read your last post. If there are things that your wife is upset about, whether or not you think that her complaints are legitimate, it is kidai to listen to her and show her that you respect her feelings and that you would like to try to address them if you can.
Whether or not you consider her complaints to be legitimate is irrelevant – the fact is that she feels this way, and a feeling can’t be illegitimate. Having a relationship with someone means listening to her feelings and complaint and showing her that you care and that you respect her feelings. I think I saw the video that Meno mentioned on Aish.com (probably a very abridged version) and I think that was the point of it (althought when I watched it, I had thought it was just meant to be humorous). It probably is kidai for you to watch it. Meno is a very smart man, and I would take his advice seriously.
Meno, that is so cool that your wife is a marriage therapist! That is a big zchus. I would have thought that you were a therapist, but you mentioned that you are an engineer.
lilmod,
You probably saw the whole video. It was a very short video, which is one of the reasons it’s so great.
The main point I took from the video (in addition to what you said) is that relationship problems can’t be approached the same way other problems are approached. If my refrigerator door is broken, and the pickle jar falls on my toe every time I open the fridge (true story), a perfectly effective solution would be to fix the fridge door.
In a relationship, when one person is bothered by something, the other person often tries to think of ways to directly avoid or get rid of that thing (e.g. the nail). But even though that would seem intuitive, it’s very ineffective. You first must show the other person that you understand their problem and their pain, and then you work out a solution TOGETHER. Again, a therapist should be able to facilitate this in each couple’s specific situation.
(I used to think this had to do with the different ways that men and women approach problems, but I’ve come to realize that it’s not really true. I believe this applies whether it is the man or the women having the problem.)
I didn’t realize that the wife complained to the Rabbi for the last 11 years. I don’t think the wife wants a divorce, because she would have petitioned Ba Jewish Court for divorce, she just want to torment her husband. If you perform an experiment a few times and get the same result and keep doing it hoping for a different result you are a fool, which is what the Rabbi seems to be trying to do.
You should know that by going to counseling you may finally find out what actually is bothering your wife. But it will only work if the husband and wife talk honestly as to what the problems are. Depending on the complexity of these problems this can be resolved in a few sessions, although it can sometimes take 5 years or longer before a determination can be made that the couple has irreconcilable differences and should be divorce.
Meno, that’s so interesting that that is what you took out of the video. I actually had thought the opposite – I thought that it was making fun of the idea that women stereotypically just want their husbands to listen to them and not to try to solve things by showing a scenario where a practical solution would have made a lot more sense than just listening for hours on end. That is why I didn’t quite get why you wanted him to watch it. Now I understand better. The problem is that I am not sure which message he will get from it.
Abba_S, it was actually 20+ years, not 11. In other words, it was almost their entire marriage.
More importantly, as I wrote in a previous post, we have to be very careful about writing negative things about the other people involved. Even though we don’t know them, Lenny does, so it is Motzi Shem Ra to say anything bad about them. It also will not do anything to improve his marriage.
Furthermore, we don’t really know anything about them, and they are not here to present their side, so it really is not right to assume anything bad about them. I also think your conclusions about both the wife and Rabbi are baseless. It is absolutely ridiculous to say that the wife’s purpose is to torment her husband. For 20 years, she was complaining to her Rabbi about how controlling and abusive her husband is, and he didn’t know anything about it!!! She obviously is not out to torment him!! If she wanted to torment him, she would have been complaining to him, not to the Rabbi!!! She clearly was too scared to say anything to him, or else, she tried and was not heard.
The fact that she has not yet petitioned for a divorce does not mean anything. There can be many reasons for that. Many women feel that it is wrong to get divorced (if you don’t believe that anyone feels that way, just read Joseph’s posts) and they feel that it is their obligation to try to make things work no matter how miserable they are. Maybe she really thought she could find a way to make things work. Maybe she thought that the Beis Din would not grant her a divorce if her husband doesn’t want one (again, read Joseph’s posts).
In terms of the Rabbi, it is also not fair to write what you did. We don’t really know anything about what he has done or tried to do. We only have Lenny’s words and he did not go into too many details, so we don’t have much information to go on, and it is really impossible for us to know what the Rabbi did and why. I think that the Rabbi is a wise man who is going about things the way he is for a very good reason. He clearly has accomplished something, because Lenny is proceeding to go to a Beis Din which is what the Rabbi wanted.
The first two sentences of your last paragraph are well-said! I definitely agree!
Lilmod,
I actually just watched it again (I hadn’t seen it in a while), and you may be right that it was intended to be a joke, but part of the reason it’s such a good joke is that it’s totally true. Either way, I think it does a good job getting the point across.
Rav Avigdor Miller zt’l said that 99% of divorces in the Orthodox community were preventable and should not have happened. He also often said a difficult marriage is better to maintain than getting divorced, which is usually more difficult than a difficult marriage and often results in a second marriage (if the person even has the mazal to be able to get remarried) that is no better and frequently worse than the first marriage. He said all this no later than the 1980s. His thoughts on this are available to hear from himself on his Torah Tapes and read in his numerous seforim. By now I would venture it is closer to 99.9%.
Rav Avigdor Miller on the Divorce Epidemic
Class #646, Mind of Control, 1:23:45
[1:27:36] Unfortunately today there’s a rash of divorces and in most cases it’s Jewish women. Even the frum Jewish women are demanding divorces from their husbands, all over, everywhere. It’s an epidemic and a tragedy of tragedies. They are ruining their lives, but most of all they are ruining their neshamas.
People are not willing to make peace with their circumstances. Say I’m going to live the best I can with the circumstances that Hashem gave me. These are the people who are going to succeed and they are achieving what’s called shlaimus of parishas haratzon. They are conquering their passions. They are ruling with their minds over their emotions. And that is the greatest perfection.
See if you can do it with yiras shemayim, with fear of Hashem, very good. Even if not, any which way you succeed in living dutifully and accepting what Hashem gave you, you are successful and you live your life with a grand purpose.
pp. 38-39
Rav Avigdor Miller on the Divorce Epidemic
Class #646, Mind of Control, 1:23:45
When the great dread day [death] comes, when finally Hashem says you are free, you are absolved, does the neshama feel relief, does the neshama celebrate that it’s all over? Oh no. It’s the yom hamara, the great and bitter day. Because our happiness in life is the duty of being in control. Ta’avah ni’hiya, when a desire is broken, is repressed, te’erav le-nefesh, [Mishlei 13:10] how sweet it is for the soul.
Disappointments when you accept that in good will, that’s a great success for you. Success doesn’t mean anything. Anybody can rejoice with success. When a person who keeps his mind calm even in disappointment, that’s the person who is gaining shelmaius. And that’s why HaKodesh Baruch Hu created us.
Life is full of disappointments. It’s full of joys. If there are joys and successes we have to celebrate by thanking Hashem. Certainly we should [also] be grateful and express our gratitude for all the difficulties of life.
Here’s a woman who had seven children with her husband. Then she put her eyes on a strange man. And she fell in love with a strange man. This mishugenah woman decides that she’s unhappy with her husband. Now later she gets over this infatuation with this strange man. He goes away and moves out of the neighborhood. Now she’s disillusioned with her husband. A woman with seven children. She lived like a Jewish woman until now.
But she has deep down in her heart gentile attitudes, attitudes maybe there’s such a thing as romance yet in life. That’s a gentile attitude. And she feels unhappy. And the husband is a hum drum husband, an ordinary decent Jewish husband. Maybe a handsome man too. But still you’re accustomed to him already. He’s too accustomed to be romantic anymore. And so she starts becoming dissatisfied. You know what she’s doing? She’s ruining her neshama.
Of course she’s not going to commit adultery. She’s going to force him to give her a get. She’s going to break away from him and she’ll look for somebody else to marry. She’ll be disappointed. No question. The second time will be worse than the first time. No question.
But the breaking away, that’s a corruption of the soul. Your perfection is to take what Hashem gave you (…. ) Cling to Hashem all the days of your life. V’dovak b’ishto. Control yourself. Squelch the imaginary romances that you think are waiting for you in life. It’s all false. Make up your mind that what you have is what’s good for you and people who live that way into their old age. No romance. Just live dutifully, live loyally, loyal to Hashem Who gave this to you. And don’t be a nirgon, don’t complain.
How long is life after all? The great day will come when you will finally be relieved then you’ll say, ah now I look back and see how fortunate I was, I was loyal to my husband all these years. I didn’t complain. I bore my burden dutifully as a bas Yisroel what HaKodesh Baruch Hu wanted me to do.
Joseph, when I read your posts, my first thought was to respond that I either don’t agree with Rav Avigdor Miller or that his comments may be taken out of context and might not mean what they sound like. But, I am not even going to take the route, because there is a more important issue here. The main issue is that these comments are simply out of place (and possibly dangerous) in this thread.
I don’t think that too many people have been paying attention to the details of this situation, but pay attention to what is going on here: There is a wife who is really upset with the way her husband has been treating her for the past 20-25 years (probably since they were married). She feels that he is controlling and abusive. From his own words, it is clear that he doesn’t care how she feels, has no interest in listening to her complaints and certainly has no interest in trying to do what he can to make her happier.
He has no interest in trying to make any changes or find out what he can do differently. All he wants to do is to force her to stay married to him even though she is miserable (another proof that he doesn’t care about her feelings). And added to that, he thinks she should be happy because he supports her well. And all this is according to his own words!! We haven’t even heard her version yet!! Imagine what she would probably say if she could!!!
It is possible that he is not interesting in relating to her feelings. It is also possible that he is incapable of doing so. I don’t know which it is. But from his posts, it is clear that it is one or the other. It is clear that he does not want to change. It is possible that a marriage therapist will be able to help him. But it seems to me that even a marriage therapist will not be able to help him until he decides that he is willing to make a change (as Meno basically said). Maybe a marriage therapist will be able to help him do that. Maybe not. And maybe, it is not POSSIBLE for him to do that.
If after going to a marriage therapist and speaking to Rabbanim, the therapist and Rabbanim decide that this marriage can not work and he should give his wife a get, he MUST do so, and it is ridiculous for anyone to encourage him to hold his wife prisoner.
Meanwhile, what he needs to be doing now is realizing that his marriage does not stand a chance until he works on listening to his wife and trying to empathize with her. Telling him that his wife should not want to divorce him is plain WRONG. Telling him that women should just accept their marriages and their husbands is WRONG!!! This is not what he needs to hear and will only exacerbate the situation. It will encourage him to continue telling his wife that he doesn’t need to do anything differently and she should just be happy. If his wife is unhappy, it is his chiyuv to try to make her happy!! This is the basic chiyuv of a husband – to make his wife happy!!!
Forget about divorce and whether or not his wife is right for wanting a divorce. We are talking to Lenny – he needs to be reminded that it is his chiyuv to make his wife happy. If his wife is unhappy, he has no right to tell her that she should be happy. He has to figure out why she is unhappy and how he can help her.
You know, Joseph, it is people like you who have made me come to the conclusion that the chareidi world isn’t for me.
Whether or not what you are quoting about divorce is true, in this context it is horrific. Lilmod explained it quite well and I’m surprised at the level of cordiality she has managed to maintain in her posts towards you.
Using the Torah to force women into staying in bad marriages and continuing to suffer is wrong. It says that the Torah is like poison in the wrong hands. Case in point.
As much as many of your posts disgust me, I have to thank you. I fled from an abusive home where my very chareidi father constantly used the Torah to continue to control and abuse his children. Particularly, you and him would probably enjoy a delightful conversation about women in which you would discover that you have almost identical viewpoints. So reading your posts keeps showing me that I made the right decision, both in leaving my childhood home and in choosing a different path in Yiddishkeit for myself.
Lilmod, we have halachas and a Shulchan Aruch that governs such disputes. And none of your presumptions are justified by what Shulchan Aruch paskens on this; and it certainly is not “clear”, as you claim. Furthermore, at the end of the day, if necessary or insisted, a beis din makes this judgment, not a rabbi.
Regarding your disagreeing with HaGaon HaRav Miller zt’l, while I’m not going to tell you that you haven’t a right to disagree with him, if your disagreement isn’t based on someone of his equal, i.e. a godol with over seven decades dealing with family issues including gittin and being a community Rov, I think we can all judge for ourselves whether to give greater credence to him or someone who bases her opinions on a few divorced acquaintances she knows.
Gofish – I appreciate your post. It does make me sad though that you are judging the Chareidi world by Joseph (and your father). They do not represent the Chareidi world. I also went through a period of time when I was very anti-Chareidi because I had the wrong impression of what being Chareidi means due to some people I knew who were misrepresenting the Chareidi world. I eventually realized that these people were not really representative of what Chareidi hashkafa is all about, and that there are many other really fine people who are people whom I would want to emulate and who do represent Chareidi hashkafa for real.
Of course, it is important to find a community where you feel comfortable, and only you can figure out what that is, but I hope that you can learn to have an appreciation for Chareidi hashkafa and the really wonderful people who are true representatives of Chareidi hashkafa.
And by the way, from the little I know of Rav Avigdor Miller, I think that he is being very misrepresented here and I think that it is Motzi Shem Ra for anyone to be mekabel that he said the things that he is being quoted as saying. Even if the words are technically accurate quotes, when something is taken out of context and used to imply that the quotee meant something he didn’t mean, that is a form of misquoting someone and quite possibly motzi shem ra (both for the one doing the quoting and the one believing it). So I think we should try to not be “mekabel” that Rav Avigdor Miller would have said such a thing in this context.
To give a sense how far halacha discourages divorce, the Halacha as paskened by the Mechaber in Shulchan Aruch regarding a case where a wife comes to beis din demanding a divorce on the grounds that her husband is physically violent with her, if the dayanim receive witness testimony corroborating her claim or he admits to her charge, the Halacha states that beis din must place the husband on official beis din ordered notice that it he continues being violent against her the beis din will then order he divorce his wife. But the beis din cannot order that until after he was given official warning and continued his behavior despite being warned. In the event he denies having been violent (and says she’s making up the claim in order to obtain an unjustified divorce) and there are no witnesses corroborating her claim, the beis din cannot accept it simply on her word. The Shulchan Aruch rules that beis din is then authorized to place an agent of beis din physically in their marital home to witness whether he’s being violent and can only order a divorce if he so witnesses.
And violence is one of the grounds the gemorah lists, and Shulchan Aruch paskens, is a valid cause to force a husband to give a divorce even if he doesn’t want to give it. There aren’t too many reasons halacha deems are grounds for divorce, and the S”A rules that only for one of the very specific reasons specifically listed in the gemorah as grounds for divorce, if corroborated, can be used for a beis din to rule a divorce is mandatory.
Joseph – you are talking such nonsense! I am really beginning to lose all respect for you. How can you think of writing such a thing? You can’t just decide how divorce works based on reading the Shulchan Aruch. Halacha doesn’t start and end with the Shulchan Aruch, especially when it comes to something as complicated as divorce. You have to find out how the Beis Dins nowadays deal with divorce, and I can assure you that if someone is being abused, they tell the husband to give her a Get, and in some cases, if he refuses, they will even beat him until he does.
Probably the halachos you are talking about are dealing with whether or not the Beis Din can FORCE someone to give a divorce. I was not talking about whether or not they can force someone to give a divorce, but rather, whether or not, they will try to encourage him to do so.
And the fact still remains that in the context of the current situation, you are (whether deliberately or not) encouraging someone to abuse his wife instead of trying to get him to fulfill his obligations towards her. Why would you do such a thing?? That is totally against the Torah!!! And if you don’t see how that is against the Torah, you need to start learning Mussar very seriously!!!
Please tell me that you weren’t paying attention to the context and were not trying to imply such a thing. I really would like to be able to be dan you l’kaf zchus!!
lilmod, you’re wrong. You simply don’t like what the Halacha is so you’re blaming it on everything under the sun to avoid what the Halacha clearly states.
And a beis din cannot order a divorce be given, when it is unwilling, unless halacha specifically specifies those circumstances qualify for a mandatory divorce. And beatings can only be done in circumstances that halacha specifically specifies beis din may.
As far as “encouraging” a divorce be given, of course there is more latitude if the circumstances justify it. But at the end of the day if he decides he doesn’t want to get divorced despite being encouraged to do so, and halacha is that he cannot be forced (as you admit), then he is under no obligation to do so.
All my last number of comments have been speaking generally and not to the OPs specific circumstances, since no one (you included) has enough information about them to render an opinion, let alone a judgment. Keep that in mind when reading my above comments. Nevertheless, a claim of a spouse being controlling, even with proof, isn’t a halachic ground for a mandatory divorce, let alone a situation such as the OP where after making that claim couldn’t cite a single example of that alleged behavior over a twenty year period.
As far as the Halacha paskened in the Shulchan Aruch is concerned, the Gedolim in the days of the Shulchan Aruch and shortly thereafter have agreed to accept the psakim of the mechaber and the Rema as authoritative. The Shach writes that one cannot even claim “kim li” against a psak of the Shulchan Aruch. This is akin to accepting someone as your “Rebbi”, where you follow his psakim. This is the same thing that happened when, let’s say, Klal Yisroel decided that the period of Chazal has ended after the 7th generation of Amorayim (Mar Zutra, Mar bar Rav Ashi, etc), and nobody from here on in can add to the Gemora. There was no “halachah l’moshe misinai” that told us that the Gemora was sealed; it was the accepted reality told to us by our Gedolim. The same thing applies to accepting the Shulchan Aruch and Rema.
In any event, the halachas I’ve cited from the Shulchan Aruch above aren’t disputed by later poskim.
“And a beis din cannot order a divorce be given, when it is unwilling, unless halacha specifically specifies those circumstances qualify for a mandatory divorce… As far as “encouraging” a divorce be given, of course there is more latitude if the circumstances justify it. But at the end of the day if he decides he doesn’t want to get divorced despite being encouraged to do so, and halacha is that he cannot be forced (as you admit), then he is under no obligation to do so.”
I wasn’t talking about ORDERING a divorce. I am talking about a situation in which it is clear to the Rabbanim involved that there is abuse and they tell the guy that he should get divorced and he refuses to listen to them. I didn’t say that they can force him to do so. That is the whole point – they can’t force him, and he can decide to be stubborn and cruel and refuse to give a get. That is exactly why such a person should be encouraged to get divorced and not encouraged to refuse to do so.
“All my last number of comments have been speaking generally and not to the OPs specific circumstances, since no one (you included) has enough information about them to render an opinion, let alone a judgment. Keep that in mind when reading my above comments.”
I will be “dan l’kaf zchus” that this comment comes from the fact that you are a guy and not a girl. I think that one of the differences between the way that men and women think is that women think in terms of context and men don’t. In some ways it’s a maaleh and in other ways it’s a chisaron. That may be why men learn Gemara and women generally don’t, because it may be better for learning gemara. On the other hand, women are usually better at relationships because they think within contexts.
In this situation, you can’t remove the context. This thread was not about a theoretical halachic discussion. Those are better left for the Beis Medrash. It was about Lenny’s specific situation and what he should do if the Rabbanim determine that there is abuse taking place and tell him that he should get divorced. You are right that we don’t have all the details, but: 1. I was talking about if in fact they spoke to therapists and Rabbanim and they recommended a divorce, and 2. There is a lot that can be surmised from what Lenny wrote (but you’d probably have to be a girl to be able to see it).
I think that one of the reasons that people sometimes get upset by your posts is that you don’t consider the context and how people will understand your posts.
Anyhow, I’m happy at least that you confirmed my limud zchus that you weren’t thinking about the context.
Lilmod, I know many wonderful chareidi people who I truly admire and respect. Those who are balanced and moderate have only my admiration.
That being said, there are too many people like Joseph and the like in the chareidi communities I’ve seen and lived in to ever be comfortable in such a community. Unfortunately, there is also a growing number of people who are becoming more and more extreme.
I have found a beautiful community, baruch Hashem, with people who overall give priority to both bein adom laMakom and bein adom lachaveiro and basic human needs too, and don’t trample on people, don’t subjugate women to the whims of power-hungry, egoistic men – all in the name of Hashem, of course.
I don’t know if this story is true, but I have heard it said that when Rav Ahron Kotler was asked what would be the greatest challenge in the coming generations, he said it would be the perversion of Torah. And sadly, this seems to be coming true on both ends of the spectrum.
Gofish – I don’t think that Joseph is as bad as he sounds. From what I “know” of him, he actually seems like a very nice person, and I don’t think he ever engages in personal insults (which is hard to avoid around here) even when he feels strongly about something. I think the issue is just the way he expresses himself, and I think that I finally figured out what his point was here. I will post more about it later, bli neder. (I already posted a bit about it).
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