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Healthcare isnt a priviledge, its a nessasity.
If R’L someone you knew close to you had cancer and didnt have insurance, would you say . Well since they cant pay for it, they will have to die
And “Pre-existing condition” also means you had cancer 20 years ago and are fine today
Ubiq – “So if a person gets a life altering illness like Cancer your response is “Let them become broke and then they will get Medicaid!”
I knew s/o would post like you just did! All liberals think the same!
And why should Cancer be different?
“and you claim to be a Ben Avraham of which the Gemara says we are “Rachmanim, Bayshanim, and Gomlei chasadim” I think your one post above single handedly proved you lack all three of those qualities”
Funny how the Mods don’t let me post any insults (which I agree with), but your posts’ are given Carte de Blanche!
We post plenty of your insults (probably too many). This is a RESPONSE to an insult, one I had thought to delete but figured you might accept the mussar better from a response. Hoping one day to see change…
To popa bar abba: I appreciate your clever dismissal of my reference to the mitzvah of healthcare (Mitzvah 614 – clever put-down), but you are … what’s the word I am looking for … wrong.
And Joseph assures us that most abortion opponents would allow an abortion to save the life of the mother. That is precisely contrary to the teaching of the world’s biggest Xian church, and contrary to what many evangelical politicians have said. Halacha requires – not just permits – an abortion to save the life of a mother, and no abortion opponents have talked about an exception for religions – like ours – that sometimes require abortions.
The world’s largest Christian church is a minority of both Republicans and Americans, huju, and their positions don’t reflect their policy by a longshot. Furthermore, the vast majority of Republican pro-lifers explicitly support an exception when the mother’s life is endangered.
Someone told me that his office has a group policy whose premiums for family coverage were ~$1100/month. Due to the ACA, they were notified that their premiums were increasing….to $4400/Month.
Health
“And why should Cancer be different?”
It shouldnt, that was my point. I dont believe people who get sick should be bankrupted and go on medicaid. You do. I dont see how you can claim to be a rachaman or gomel chesed and beleive that on top of being sick all thse people should be poor too.
and your right it isnt just cancer the bills from any unexpected medical emergency would be enough to bankrupt most familes, even relatively comfortable ones. That you would condemn all these people to bankruptcy and medicaid is appalling.
Don’t complain about the insult. Please tell me how you square your position with being a “rachaman” or “Gomel chesed” perhaps IVe misunderstood (I sincerely hope so) i would love to apologize for what I hope was a horrible misstatement on your part or misunderstanding on mine
iacisrmma………..
Don’t believe anecdotal evidence ‘somebody told me’
Health insurance increases have to be approved by each state.
The National Conference of State Legislators has published charts on line showing state by state increases for 2017
NY has a weighted increase of 17.3% That $1100 premium would be approx $1290 come January. No one is approving an increase of 300% as you relayed.
Rabbi Avi Shafran wrote an op-ed piece for Ha’aretz in which he states that given the choice between Roe v. Wade with no restrictions on abortion and totally criminalizing abortion, he would have to side with allowing abortion because there are cases where halacha requires abortion. However, he goes on to say, he would prefer a middle ground.
I read the Republican platform section on abortion, and find no mention of any exceptions.
The reality, with abortion now being almost entirely legal, is that any change would still allow exceptions.
There’s no way it would change overnight from always legal to illegal even when threatening the mother’s life.
“There’s no way it would change overnight from always legal to illegal even when threatening the mother’s life.”
a. I think we should hold off on “no way…” predictions for a while
b. It doesnt have to happen overnight
c. Who do you want to define “even when threatening the mother’s life.” A (super-competent ORthodox) Rav, or anybody else
yehudayona and Daas Yochid
I don’t know how old you are and whether you were an adult before Roe V. Wade.
I was. Before Rose v. Wade pregnant women in the US who wanted to terminate an abortion had 2 choices: an illegal procedure, often fraught with danger or go out of the country. When I was in high school if you heard a girl was going to San Juan PR for a weekend that was code for flying there for a legal abortion. Poor women suffered the illegal and dangerous procedures and if something went wrong and they ended up min the emergency room at the local hospital they were subject to arrest, prosecution and prison.
I, parent of adopted children am not in favor of abortion at will. That said there are times when it is medically necessary to save the life of the woman. I don’t want a law without exceptions.
CTL, prior to Roe v. Wade, abortion was legal in many (but not all) states. So it wasn’t necessary to leave the country for an abortion. Secondly, even the states that outlawed abortion, for the most part, had exceptions.
Mods – I’m trying to tame it down, but I get lost in the emotional aspect!
Well thank you for letting us know.
CTL Lawyer,
That is incorrect. Prior to Roe v. Wade the legality of abortion was left to the States. Some states permitted abortion and some states banned it and some states were in between. The majority of states outlawed it outside of risk to the mother’s health but there were states that one could visit to get an abortion.
NY was the first state to legalize abortion and that was in 1970. It wasnt that long before Roe V Wade
CTlawyer: the person who told me is directly involved with the health insurance coverage in his office. It is not anecdotal evidence.
Ubiq -“It shouldnt, that was my point. I dont believe people who get sick should be bankrupted and go on medicaid. You do. I dont see how you can claim to be a rachaman or gomel chesed and beleive that on top of being sick all thse people should be poor too.”
Simple; because Obamacare has made insurance unaffordable for many!
I have Rachmonus on those people instead of people with preexisting conditions!
I agree that if you already have insurance, you should not be able to be thrown off!
“and your right it isnt just cancer the bills from any unexpected medical emergency would be enough to bankrupt most familes, even relatively comfortable ones. That you would condemn all these people to bankruptcy and medicaid is appalling.”
There’s nothing wrong with having Medicaid! I have it and it covers emergencies. The situation of Obamacare and it’s high premiums is wrong!
benignuman -“the legality of abortion was left to the States. Some states permitted abortion and some states banned it and some states were in between. The majority of states outlawed it outside of risk to the mother’s health but there were states that one could visit to get an abortion.”
Unfortunately, all I heard Trump say – he’d return it to the States!
But I want it illegal everywhere!
That’s what the Torah says!
Health
“I agree that if you already have insurance, you should not be able to be thrown off!”
OK what about the person who develops cancer while on an insurance plan then the insurance company drops them from the policy becasue he hasa history of bunions/acne etc prior to joining the policy and they now realize he had a pre-existing condition and shouldnt have been approved?
pre Obamacare this was not an unheard of occurrence
“There’s nothing wrong with having Medicaid!”
Agreed. Though you said They should “go broke” It seems your plan is for those faced with a devastating illness to go broke. Im worried that I didint misunderstand ou. Please tell me that I have.
Furthermore, if a person switches employers he may very well be switching insuracne carriers and even if a condition was not “preexisting” when he started it now is. In the old days he too could have been denied.
note: Even trump doesnt agree with you on this and has said he plans to keep that part of ObamaCare.
Zahavasdad,
NY might have been the first that permitted it outright. Other states allowed in some circumstances. Also in the years before the decision a lot of states started “reforming” their abortion laws (something cited in the decision itself), to give women more access to abortion in more circumstances.
Ubiq- “OK what about the person who develops cancer while on an insurance plan then the insurance company drops them from the policy becasue he hasa history of bunions/acne etc prior to joining the policy and they now realize he had a pre-existing condition and shouldnt have been approved?
pre Obamacare this was not an unheard of occurrence”
As far as I know, that preexisting condition is not a disease!
IDK if anyone was actually thrown off because of it.
And if you prove that they were, then that should be an exclusion in the law!
“Agreed. Though you said They should “go broke” It seems your plan is for those faced with a devastating illness to go broke. Im worried that I didint misunderstand ou. Please tell me that I have.”
I’m telling e/o, like Pres. Obama to buy insurance; if you don’t, & then you get ill, with a long term illness, the companies might not accept you for a Health insurance policy!
“Furthermore, if a person switches employers he may very well be switching insuracne carriers and even if a condition was not “preexisting” when he started it now is. In the old days he too could have been denied.”
The law should be that you can keep your old policy, even with changing jobs!
“note: Even trump doesnt agree with you on this and has said he plans to keep that part of ObamaCare.”
And I don’t agree with everything he said either! See my last post on abortion!
CTLawyer what I think the poster meant was that the employee’s portion of the premium went up by 300%. The employer pays a set amount per employee anything above that is the employee’s responsibility. My copay went up 250% per medical procedure and 100% for drugs.
If you want to reduce abortions all the state has to do is tax it as they taxes cigarettes. Leaving the burden on the provider to collect the taxes. Have the state audit the abortionist to insure they are paying the the proper amount.
Health
“As far as I know, that preexisting condition is not a disease!”
I’m not sure what you mean, acne is a disease.
“IDK if anyone was actually thrown off because of it.”
I do
“And if you prove that they were,”
I can’t prove it, this isn’t exactly a publicly available supreme Court case.
” then that should be an exclusion in the law!”
What law? Preobamacare insurance could be denied for a “preexisting condition” thanks to Obama Zul seine gezunt in shtark’s, this is no longer a thing. What exclusion to what law are you proposing?
“The law should be that you can keep your old policy, even with changing jobs!”
What? And who pays the old employer or the new one? I don’t think you know how insurance is (generally) structured in this country
iacisrmma
If you weren’t shown the insurance company invoices for the same person for the same coverage, you have anecdotal evidence.
Hearsay is not admissible (with a few stated exceptions) in a court of law for good reason.
Ct: The person I spoke to is a partner in a CPA firm and therefore I rely on the information he told me. I can’t help it if you doubt the veracity of the jnformation. Since I am not testifying to this in court I don’t have to read the policy.
CTL:
It is because of people like you that DJT got elected.
Fact of the matter is that health insurance premiums went up drastically since the Obamacare bill was signed into law. I experienced it, my neighbor experienced it, and it happened to everyone I know. The benefits are not worth the premiums and the good doctors that some of us are used to using are not accepting insurance anymore. Where I live you can’t get half decent out of network benefits even if you are willing to pay enormous premiums.
You, however will prove me wrong and quote statistics about how many more people are covered now.
AKA. Out of touch.
I am not as educated as you are. I don’t have access to data and polls. I dont have time to create spreadsheets or read opinion articles. Nor can I present an argument as well as you do. I am a struggling middle class American who knows that my wallet can’t take any more beating. It is people like me who voted Trump.
Ubiq:
Prior to Obamacare, insurance companies would legally need to cover anyone that provided proof of continuous coverage.
That is the point of insurance. you pay premiums even though you don’t have bills now so that they’ll be there for you in the event that you do.
bigdeal
Yes, but what was hapening was often when people became sick insurance companies found reasons to drop them.
furthermore what you state isnt quite true. Individual plans were always alowed to exclude preexisting conditions. and even group plans were only not allowed to restrict those peopl if they hadnt gone 63 days wihtout coverage. But if they had gone 63 days without coverage say, after switching employers, (perhaps waiting for new benefits to kick in, or if they spent time looking for new work) then the new group policy could exclude them for any “preexisting condition”
This was the law as in place since HIPPA 1997
Yes, but what was hapening was often when people became sick insurance companies found reasons to drop them.
You don’t need Obamacare to fix that, you just need to keep the insurance companies in check.
and even group plans were only not allowed to restrict those peopl if they hadnt gone 63 days wihtout coverage.
In other words, only if there was continuous coverage. Nobody disputed that.
Ubiq: NY state at least, had more “generous” preexisting condition laws, and hence higher premiums (along with more mandated coverage, IIRC).
When it comes to health insurance it seems the maxim you “can’t have the cake and eat it too” applies.
They still find reasons to drop them or not to pay a claim. That’s the nature of business. Nobody is dying to loose money if they can get away with it. No amount of laws will help.
That’s where cobra comes in.
Ubiq-“Yes, but what was hapening was often when people became sick insurance companies found reasons to drop them.”
The main reason was because of AIDS!
Kollelman -“Since insurance companies cannot reject pre-existing conditions, their risk (and with that, the premiums) has gone up significantly”
You’re right! Why should e/o else pay because you got AIDS?!?
“You don’t need Obamacare to fix that, you just need to keep the insurance companies in check.”
Oh absolutely. OF course it becomes he said, she said because its not like the insurance company says oh we are cheating.
“In other words, only if there was continuous coverage. Nobody disputed that.”
I am disputing that (as is Health care law in place since 1997). Individual insurance can drop you if you had preexisting conditions. Say you were an empolyee with group insurance and diabetes/HTN etc you try to open your ow business and would like to buy individual insurance. No amount of continuous coverage protected you. For GROUP insurance policies, thats when if you had continuous coverage you couldnt be rejected for preexisting conditions. But even then continuous meant no less than 63 days. Which left too many out in the cold.
“They still find reasons to drop them or not to pay a claim. “
Can you elaborate? how do they do that?
Ubiq
That’s the nature of any insurance business. They won’t pay unless pressed to do so. Did you ever try to file a claim with a car insurance company? Especially a third party’s? How about homeowners?
Small example: health insurance company refused to cover a regular delivery. Patient had coverage and premiums up to date. Company delays compensation for no reason until patient’s attorney threatens legal action. Suddenly doctor’s and hospital fees plus interest are covered.
I’m sure you are aware of similar scenarios happening all the time. More regulation won’t help.
Insurance companies try to get away with paying as little as possible or nothing at all. Most of the time patients don’t realize and pay a larger copay or deductible than necessary.
(Did you miss my post about cobra?)
“Suddenly doctor’s and hospital fees plus interest are covered.”
phew! sounds like it worked out. Look if you are advocating for a law that insurance companies need to pay sooner, Ok I might be able to get on board, though I dont think that problem is a pressing one
“I’m sure you are aware of similar scenarios happening all the time.”
I dotn really see the problem, so they drag theri feet sometimes. nu nu
“More regulation won’t help.”
Ok, i’ll bite. what will?
“Did you miss my post about cobra?”
I may have. though, I hope your realize that your argument that Obamacare is too expensive, just fall back on Cobra doesnt make sense right? Though it makes more sense than suggesting the guy who lost his job and now spends 64 days looking for a new job, with no income in the interim to sign up for COBRA
Besides there are other scenarios that I havent mentioned that Cobra isnt relevant. Immigrants, A Young person who assumed he would be healthy and suddenly gets into an accident, gets cancer and tries to sign up for insurance. Guess what he now has as he is signing up for his first insurance policy?
I am not suggesting Obamacare is perfect. My question for you is do you think insurance companies should be allowed to not cover based on preexisting conditions? (not you Health, youve made your viewon the subject pretty clear)
Or put another way do yo uview healthcare as a privelege or neccesit as ZD put it so well?
I don’t think the question is whether you view healthcare as a privilege or a necessity. I view it as both.
Being provided healthcare when needed is a necessity in the sense that it is necessary for you to live. Under US law a person cannot be refused needed medical care at an emergency room.
But health insurance is privilege. You must be treated but you will receive a bill afterward. Not paying your bill is not a necessity and no one else can be morally required to pay your bill for you.
All that being said, I actually support Medicaid for all (aka single payer) along the lines of the Israeli model (the Canadian model is not as good). The quality of care will decrease but people who want higher quality of care can pay out of pocket for better doctors or better insurance. I support this, not because it is a necessity or a right, but because the US is a rich enough country to provide it and why shouldn’t they. The US will spend billions of dollars to rescue US citizens being held hostage by a terrorist group. But if the same citizens are dying of cancer, the US shouldn’t pay millions to save them?
Health!,
Whether or not abortion is asur (outside of risk to the mother life) is a machlokes Rishonim, Acharonim and modern-day poskim. According to many there are other instances where abortion would be mutar besides for a risk to the life of the mother (e.g. mamzeirus, debilitating illness/disabilities).
Whoa. Ubiq. You’re all over the page with this one. I feel like we’re playing broken telephone.
Point is that companies will find a reason to drop coverage or not pay a claim.
My argument is that Obamacare doesn’t make sense. I don’t have time to elaborate now. Maybe later.
Point about cobra was to provide interim health insurance for people that are between jobs.
Bigdeal
It is not because of me that Trump will be President. Trump lost CT where I live and vote.
Coverage under the ACA is different in every state. Health Insurance premiums have been skyrocketing far longer than ACA is the law.
Here, I did not lose a single doctor’s care, or availability of any provider, in fact I have more . My coverage is with the same carrier as before ACA. I have individual coverage, not through an employer or a group.
I can not speak top coverages and changes in other states.
As for the comment about a story from some CPA posted earlier. I challenge the poster to examine the actual bills for the same individual/family with the same policy. NO carrier got approval for a 300% increase in one year.
bigdeal
“Point is that companies will find a reason to drop coverage or not pay a claim.”
That may be true but it is a brand new point that is only tangentialy related to the problem of denying those with preexisting conditions. Which under Obamacare can no longer occur. If it is as big a problem as you suggest, then I am all for solving it. however using that as an argument not to fix another problem, really doesnt make sense
“I don’t have time to elaborate now. Maybe later.”
No problem. all the best. I’l probably be here if you think of specific questions
“Point about cobra was to provide interim health insurance for people that are between jobs.”
I got that, and I replied with examples of people with pre-existing conditions who were not between jobs, thus Cobra wouldnt help them. And even those in between jobs, Cobra is expensive and not always affordable.
benignuman -“Being provided healthcare when needed is a necessity in the sense that it is necessary for you to live. Under US law a person cannot be refused needed medical care at an emergency room.
But health insurance is privilege. You must be treated but you will receive a bill afterward. Not paying your bill is not a necessity and no one else can be morally required to pay your bill for you.
All that being said, I actually support Medicaid for all (aka single payer)”
I agree! And make sure to get rid of MEDICARE!
benignuman -“Health!,
Whether or not abortion is asur (outside of risk to the mother life) is a machlokes Rishonim, Acharonim and modern-day poskim.”
Unfortunately, you don’t know what you are talking about!
That is only by Jews, not by Goyim!
Abortion is killing, no matter what you say!
“According to many there are other instances where abortion would be mutar besides for a risk to the life of the mother (e.g. mamzeirus, debilitating illness/disabilities).”
I am far from an expert in the halachos of abortion, but my impression from what I’ve always heard was that it is only allowed when there is risk to the mother’s life, and that risk to the mother’s life can involve emotional health as well. In the cases you mentioned, if it’s allowed, it is because the mother’s emotional health is at stake.
I read a nice story in one of Rabbi Dr. Avraham Twersky’s books. He had a patient for whom it would have been dangerous to her emotional well-being to have a child, so she had something inserted to prevent conception (I was a bit lost on the technical details). Something went wrong, and she ended up conceiving. Ending the pregnancy in this case would have been a much simpler procedure than an abortion.
So he asked Rav Moshe Feinstein, zatsal, if it would be mutar for her to do this.
Rav Moshe Feinstein asked, “If she had household help, would she able to manage emotionally?”
Rabbi Dr. Twersky responded, “Yes, but she can’t afford it.”
So Rav Moshe responded, “In that case, the problem is not an emotional health issue; it is a financial issue. Go out and raise money for household help for her.”
Here’s a data point regarding COBRA. When I was between jobs a few years ago, I had COBRA. The premium for family coverage was about $1650 a month, or roughly $20,000 a year. That’s not including co-pays, of course. As ubiquitin pointed out, it’s not always affordable.
Counselor: this is not a court of law and I will not challenge the person who told it to me (and I believe he knows how to read his personal insurance bills as well as his firms’). You don’t want to believe it, don’t. If I can accept the fact that you paid $180 for your esrog and lulav without asking to see your cancelled check……….oh since it was you it is not hearsay…….which only applies to testimony.
Ubiq:
It’s simple. Insurance is a business. Those that sell the insurance are in it to make money. They make that money by collecting premiums from everyone not just from sick people who keep hitting them with large claims. By continuing to regulate the industry the government will only exacerbate the problem further. Every time a new law is passed that reduces possible income or creates a scenario in which huge claims are expected, premiums increase significantly. The cost then gets passed on to the consumer.
Obviously, some regulation is necessary but what Obamacare has done is not only obliterate the free market but put a significant strain on healthcare as we knew it.
To answer some of you previous questions:
Why hasn’t that young man had continuous coverage? Everyone should be covered even the young and healthy. Does nobody believe in being responsible for themselves?
Do you believe that health insurance should be unaffordable for the majority of Americans because some immigrants might not be able to obtain coverage?
so by your own logic, cobra is too expensive for the individual so introduce Obamacare for the entire nation?(Much more expensive). If someone falls on hard times and cannot meet the cobra payments they can sign up for Medicaid which is also considered continuous coverage.
Big deal
your first paragraph is in fact quite simple, I believe I said it in my first post on the subject.
“put a significant strain on healthcare as we knew it.”
Lol. Healthcare has been strained for years, thats why Obamacare came in.
“Why hasn’t that young man had continuous coverage? Everyone should be covered even the young and healthy”
hurray! you seem to accept one of the tennets of Obamcare. As to why our young friend didnt have continuos coverage, yo have to ask him are are some possibilities:
– He thought he was invincible and figured all I get is a well visit once a year
– He just turned 21 and didint realize he was no longer on his parents plan (pre Obama zul zein gezunt in shtark extended it to 26 when people are more mature. Luckily this is another aspect Trump “Likes very much”)
– He just turned 21 and couldnt afford it (pre Obama zul zein gezunt in shtark extended it to 26 when people might have larger income. Luckily this is another aspect Trump “Likes very much”)
“Do you believe that health insurance should be unaffordable for the majority of Americans because some immigrants might not be able to obtain coverage?”
no. Nobody says Obamacare made it unaffordable for majority of Americans. Again, as pointed out earlier 90% of Americans premiums werent affected by Obamcare. As for the 10% that have been, I have to wonder how many are actually in the unaffordable range?
Health!
Fortunately, I do know what I am talking about. And I was talking about Jews. Do you think the States are going to make laws that only apply to non-Jews? If they ban abortion, it will apply to Jews as well.
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