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It should be assur to drive, too, due to sakanos nefoshos. Especially to drive on vacation, when the driving is unessential.
I would call my own rosh yeshiva a malshin if he did this.
I think Popa is using the word malshin as a verb rather than a noun. He’s not giving him that name. He is only describing the specific act of going to the government against a portion of mitzvas mila as an act of malshinus. Hence he was (lower case) malshin, as in one who engaged in specific course of behavior. Not (capital) “A Malshin” as in a nasty pejorative. (which may also be true).
pba: then you have even more issues than I originally thought.
Actually, I did intend to call him a Malshin. But not as a pejorative, just as a descriptive and halachic term.
Feif: Just tell me why I’m wrong. Just make up one even bizarre explanation for why he would go to the secular authority about something that he apparently cannot convince the rabbonim of his city.
It should be noted that about six years ago Tendler boasted in one of his YU courses that he reported a mohel to the government. YU put an audio of his course on its website, as it generally does for all those courses. After it became widely known, he quickly had YU delete that audio of his course with his incriminating statement. (By now copies of the audio is available online, outside of the YU site.)
I also strongly suspect he is responsible for being at least partially responsible for instigating the NYC DOHMH to initiate these proceedings this year that resulted in them regulating MBP.
Shmoel: No matter what you hold about R’ Tendler, that last line is pure Lashon Harah and Assur to say. Suspicions are irrelevant. The mods shouldn’t have let that line through.
Sam: Why bothers you about that last line? It is precisely what he is advocating in Rockland county? Presumably he favors it in NYC and would have been happy to advocate it there also.
Besides, you are allowed to tell lashon hara about a Malshin.
PBA: Even if it is Muttar to say things about him, that doesn’t mean that anything goes. You can still only tell facts, not theories or suspicions.
Well either way, it is exactly the same as what he is publicly doing, so it is no more derogatory.
PBA: Yes, but that doesn’t make it Muttar.
Again, what is the source that you aren’t allowed to make up stories about a malshin? IIRC, you are allowed to do much worse, and it is even a mitzva to.
PBA: I’ll look up precisely where. I’m almost positive about this though.
I would imagine that PBA’s assertion of him being a Malshin is not only due to this most recent case…
No, it is only because of this case.
TO HEalth : Don’t know why you use the word health, when you clearly have no understanding of health issues. And why is it a conspiracy, when someone says the truth? the people who say its a conspiracy dont want to know the truth therefore saying everything is a conspiracy.
I will answer the question who killed Kennedy, watch the original film that was done that day , and you will see the driver turning around and holding a gun and shooting JFK. As he shoots , you see JFKs head going back and the wound is in the front of his head. CHeck it out. People who say things are controversial say it to protect their position, like on vaccines. THey are not controversial to me or to many Rabbanim here in the USA and in EY. They have told people not to take the vaccines that their Drs were telling them to take, because ” the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease” and this is a quote from a gadol hador.
If something is against the way the Torah states, how does it make it right for a country with freedom of religion to ban it ,or force you to do something wrong? WOuld you give your children treif if its mandatory for them to enter school with a week of eating treif? come on. You stick to the Torah and you will be okay. Once you start bending one law, you will see that more laws will be forced upon us.
pba: I don’t have a reason. But I’m not on the level that he is, and neither are you. When a big Rav says he’s a malshin, then you can quote him. Until then, it’s not for you to decide. R’ Tendler knows way more Torah and Halachah than you do, and I’d take his opinion over yours any day.
If R’ Shteinman did something controversial, people would be falling over themselves trying to fit it into halachah. Why? Because they realize that he knows way more than they do, and that chances are, he’s right and they’re wrong. It’s the same thing with R’ Tendler.
I am a rav.
I’m finding this conversation very fascinating by the way, because I didn’t imagine that you would be falling over yourself to defend Rav Shteinman if he did something you thought was wrong.
Prof. Tendler has small shoes. He is a little man with no rights to fight the giants.
shmoel: That’s RABBI Tendler to you. Rabbi Tendler is one of the giants. He was consulted on medical issues by many big rabbonim, including his father in law, R’ Moshe Feinstein zt”l. R’ Moshe described him in glowing terms.
That’s RABBI Tendler to you.
He was consulted on medical issues by many big rabbonim, including his father in law, R’ Moshe Feinstein zt”l.
I just wanted to quote those, and see how they looked together.
In the Torah world he is a midget. Whatever his medical qualification are or aren’t. (And even in medicine, I understand it is more on the aren’t side than the are side.)
shmoel: Many rabbonim disagree with you.
As for PBA, if you are a Rav, then I pity the members of your kehillah. You dared to preach such hatred just before Yom Kippur? You dare to attack R’ Tendler? You, even as a Rav, don’t even reach his ankles in your knowledge of halacha!
When did this get so personal?
PBA -“Exactly what scientific standards does a study have, when it
studies 8 cases?
And bases its conclusion on the average amount of time between exposure and infection, when the times range up to 3 times the amount of time as the lower end?
And uses no counterfactuals?
And makes assumptions based on an exposure which every baby in that community is exposed to, without using the average from the community?
Hilarious.”
Sorry about not responding earlier, but I’ve been busy with Yom Tov. It says 8 cases were believed to have been caused by MBP, not that they only studied 8 cases. I didn’t study the article itself, only the abstract.
You have the right to present a counter article and submit it to the AAP. I personally am not an expert in Statistics. But the rule is that if the AAP accepted it for publication, they basically agree with it. That doesn’t mean that there can’t be an opposing view, but your few questions only makes it a non-serious article in your mind only.
How about using some intellectual honesty? I know you have the intellect.
So acc. to medical science right now – MPH is a Sakanah. And to say differently right now is against the Torah -acc. to those that hold Chazal differed to medical science when applicable.
nishtdayngesheft -“Health,I can hardly believe you would try to pass yourself of as a health professional without noting the numerous glaring holes in the alleged study. Which as everyone knows had the conclusion written before the study began.”
Since you’re the expert, please post all the statistical flaws in the actual study. And after you do that – submit it to the AAP for publication. If they except it, then we can take your word that the study was flawed.
“I wonder if that is is how some justify the colossal chillul Hashem perpetrated by this individual? Because he has a half baked study?”
I was not defending any individual, just proving a point about MBP.
“Please, even his original target has performed Grissom many thousands of times and he can only find two cases to pin on him? That alone flies in the face of his own study.”
This study has nothing to do with that Mohel. As far as I know, that Mohel can even be HSV -neg.
“Besides I wonder if you any clue what sakonas necashos means.”
Actually I wonder if you do. You seem not to have the foggiest idea about medical science.
“As I stated numerous times above, we are not talking about when there is an active case. Mohel in do not so MbP then anyway. What is manufactured is that there is any real risk of shedding from non active cases.”
Well it seems from the study that it isn’t manufactured as you say. It seems HSV was passed onto babies during the Bris and I don’t think the Mohelim had cold sores at the time. Again, if you have specific data that their study was flawed, you can post it here.
“If there were, then it would be ossur to nurse because the sakonah is at least as great then. Are you suggesting that it should be ossur to nurse as well? You should if your consistent.”
Here again you prove you don’t know Halacha or Medicine.
I never heard of a study saying Nursing can pass on HSV. Even if you’re correct, then go ask a Rov the Shaila. It’s not B’chlal Nogieah me, so I’m not going into the Shaila, if even there is one.
But for you to compare one to the other is ridiculous. Like I said, I’ll take your word that nursing is a Sakana. E/o knows the Heter of “Hakol Doshin Bo”. They are always quoting R’ Moshe on smoking with this. (Oh btw, for you guys who go to Yeshivos that allow smoking -R’ Moshe’s son said -R’ Moshe would never Mattir smoking nowadays.) Nursing would probably have the Heter of “Hakol Doshin Bo”, but I don’t see how this Heter could be used for MBP!
Chance -“They have told people not to take the vaccines that their Drs were telling them to take, because ” the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease” and this is a quote from a gadol hador.”
I don’t have the time or energy to respond to your posts, even to explain why the theories you expose are called conspiracy theories.
But this part above, I want to discuss. If the vaccine is a live virus, then I can believe that a Godol said this. If the vaccine is a non-live virus and the person said it on this, then he is No Godol, just an Am Haaretz.
“But the rule is that if the AAP accepted it for publication, they basically agree with it.“
That is certainly not the case with most scientific journals. Do some research – you would be amazed at the studies that have been published that quite clearly do not reflect the viewpoints of the organization in whose journal it was written.
Health,
I did not say I am the expert, you however say you are an expert. Yet even me, a non expert sees many fallacies in the study. Certainly when the result was the first part of the study written. A study that only reports the cases that supports is allegations is no study at all. There were no cases of MbP that did not result in HSV? That is what the study would like to allege. They only looked at cases were there was a concurrence of MbP and HSV. Hardly an objective study at all.
And, non expert that I am easily located the study on the NIH about nursing. My quote was directly from the NIH.
The studies seems to say that the occurence would be more likely by nursing than by MbP. Yet it is clear that that is not considered a danger, ergo the alleged sakonah associated with MpB is not considered a sakonah.
There has been no study that supported allegations that a person with non active HSV can infect a child. Mohelim that have active HSV do not do MbP.
But I never called my self Health and said that I am an expert in the Health field. You on the other hand do so and yet you post comments that directly disprove that assertion of yours.
With your attitude I can understand why an issue of nursing would never be nogeiah you.
It was not necessary for you to interrupt your Yom Tov preparations to post what you did. Have a good Yom Tov.
Health: What is the heter to engage in sakanos nefoshos such as driving (on vacation)? Driving is a much much much greater risk of sakanos nefoshos — according to any statistics — than MBP.
gregaaron -“That is certainly not the case with most scientific journals. Do some research – you would be amazed at the studies that have been published that quite clearly do not reflect the viewpoints of the organization in whose journal it was written.”
You took that sentence out of context. I said they agree that it makes sense statiscally, not necessarily with the viewpoint.
So until or if until another study is published with an opposite viewpoint we follow this study.
nishtdayngesheft -“Health,
I did not say I am the expert, you however say you are an expert.”
I said in my post clearly that I’m not an expert in Statistics, only in Medicine.
“Yet even me, a non expert sees many fallacies in the study. Certainly when the result was the first part of the study written. A study that only reports the cases that supports is allegations is no study at all. There were no cases of MbP that did not result in HSV? That is what the study would like to allege. They only looked at cases were there was a concurrence of MbP and HSV. Hardly an objective study at all.”
You’re not even making any sense over here. Their objective was only to prove that sometimes MBP causes HSV, not all the time.
So why in the world would they have to look at cases where the kid didn’t come down with HSV?
“And, non expert that I am easily located the study on the NIH about nursing. My quote was directly from the NIH.”
I said that I was taking your word for it, but I wasn’t looking it up.
“The studies seems to say that the occurence would be more likely by nursing than by MbP. Yet it is clear that that is not considered a danger, ergo the alleged sakonah associated with MpB is not considered a sakonah.”
I don’t care whether the Goyim consider it a danger or not.
I was talking acc. to Halacha.
“There has been no study that supported allegations that a person with non active HSV can infect a child. Mohelim that have active HSV do not do MbP.”
Again where in that study does it say all the Mohelim had an active case of HSV with cold sores?
“But I never called my self Health and said that I am an expert in the Health field. You on the other hand do so and yet you post comments that directly disprove that assertion of yours.”
I fail to see anywhere that I contradicted myself.
“With your attitude I can understand why an issue of nursing would never be nogeiah you.”
Hey, I’ve been married and there are other ways to feed babies. I’m sure you’ve never heard of formula.
“It was not necessary for you to interrupt your Yom Tov preparations to post what you did. Have a good Yom Tov.”
That’s not what I wrote. That line wasn’t your Gesheft (nisht dayn gesheft) – it was to PBA!
shmoel -“Health: What is the heter to engage in sakanos nefoshos such as driving (on vacation)? Driving is a much much much greater risk of sakanos nefoshos — according to any statistics — than MBP.”
If you would have read my posts before posting -you would know of the Heter of “Hakol Doshin Bo”!
You’re not even making any sense over here. Their objective was only to prove that sometimes MBP causes HSV, not all the time.
So why in the world would they have to look at cases where the kid didn’t come down with HSV?
Because you cannot establish causation without looking at the cases where the same exposure happened and did not cause infection. Without that, the whole study is just naarishkeit.
Hakol doshin bo like the reason Rav Moshe says smoking is muttar? You can hakol doshin bo for MBP too.
PBA -“Because you cannot establish causation without looking at the cases where the same exposure happened and did not cause infection. Without that, the whole study is just naarishkeit.”
I really don’t understand what you’re saying here. I’m not a Boki in statistics, but why can’t they just assume that most MBP didn’t cause HSV?
shmoel -“Hakol doshin bo like the reason Rav Moshe says smoking is muttar? You can hakol doshin bo for MBP too.”
Oh really? Do most people in the world even do Mila? And even if yes, do most people who circumcize do MBP?
“I really don’t understand what you’re saying here. I’m not a Boki in statistics, but why can’t they just assume that most MBP didn’t cause HSV?“
Because scientific medicine, which for better or for worse seems to be considered ????? ??? ?????, is not based on assumptions. Which is why every reliable study published in every reliable medical journal clearly states the limitations of the study and possible confounding variables (which of course is something that you, as a self proclaimed expert in medicine, already knew).
Because then they can’t conclude that MBP ever does cause herpes either.
All they have is a bunch of babies who have herpes and all had MBP. To make any conclusion, you need to compare that number to the babies who did not have MBP and say there is a higher incidence, and then account for other possible differences in the samples, like a likelihood that the MBP families also have other small kids in the family who would expose them, or other possible differences.
Until you do that, it is a literature paper, not a science paper.
To expand on PBA’s point, yes, all of the babies also had MBP. But it is just as likely that they all used the same brand of baby food – maybe that caused it? Or, maybe it’s that they all were wearing little blue bowties – maybe that’s what caused it? Until every other variable is controlled for, and an equal sample of non-MBP babies is studied as well, the study can not in any be considered conclusive. Remember – every person who eats Rice Krispies eventually dies. Cause and effect?
PBA & gregaaron -I now understand your point, but last night I looked at the study. It seems to my limited knowledge of statistics that there was never a Hava Mina that there can be any other cause besides the mother. I can understand why they wouldn’t think food (“that they all used the same brand of baby food”), but what about other family members?
To perhaps to understand where they are coming from – perhaps they believe that if other family members were HSV pos. then it would be next to impossible for the mother to be HSV -neg. The mother has the most contact with the baby, so if the baby got it from another family source it stands to reason the mother would also get HSV from the same family member, but both the mother and baby tested HSV -neg. A recent source such as MBP would explain HSV -neg in the baby. There has to be a source for the HSV.
This study is not similar to cases in NY were family members testified that some other kids in the family had cold sores.
Again, I’m not an expert in Statistics and perhaps there is an entirely different reason why they came to this conclusion, not the theory I posted above.
But the AAP who accepted this article are experts in Statistics and they wouldn’t have accepted a flawed study.
All I can tell you to answer your questions is to go and review the whole article again. And if you still have Kashas contact the Medical Doctors who published the study.
But as of right now, the AAP’s study stands as current medical practice.
You have not Upshlogged it, even if you make some points. I & e/o else have to assume there are answers to these points, just you didn’t completely understand the study.
Try rereading the study and if this doesn’t work contact these Doctors. I’m sure they thought of anything you could possibly ask.
If in the one-in-a-million chance they can’t answer you, then go ahead and submit your questions and their ridiculous answers to the AAP for publication.
“But as of right now, the AAP’s study stands as current medical practice.“
Again, the fact that a paper was published does not make it “current medical practice”. Medical and professional literature is full of papers advocating conflicting and contradictory viewpoints.
shein -“You are incorrect about this, Health. Even they don’t claim with certainty that it could not have been passed to the child from another source. And this dismantles your entire argument.”
Yes, I stand corrected, but the argument still stands.
They say it’s very unlikely that other family members gave the infant HSV. Here is the quote: “and absence of clinical signs and symptoms consistent with HSV infections among family members.”
So it doesn’t have to be for sure that family members didn’t give the baby HSV. All it has to be is the likihood the HSV came from the Mohel. We aren’t talking Goyishe law -this is Halacha. This article even if not 100% proof has definitely made MBP into a Safek which has the same Din as a Vaday by Nefashos.
So back to Machlokes Achronim acc. to my understanding. Even those that hold MBP is part of the Mila and you’re Mechuyav to be Moiser Nefesh for it, not like the Chasam Sofer. This can only be, Lfi Anias Dati, if there is no way to do MBP without putting the baby into danger. But I previously posted that there are ways to do it safely. So I see No Heter for anyone to sweep this issue under the carpet.
gregaaron -“Again, the fact that a paper was published does not make it “current medical practice”. Medical and professional literature is full of papers advocating conflicting and contradictory viewpoints.”
Until there is another conflicting viewpoint, if there ever will be, from a reliable medical source, the AAP’s study stands as current medical practice!
I said in my post clearly that I’m not an expert in Statistics, only in Medicine. —Health
Calling oneself an “expert in medicine” is a strong statement. Respecfully, Health, would you tell us if you hold the degree of Doctor of Medicine (M.D.) and whether or not you are licensed to practice medicine?
I know you have expressed concern about your privacy, but really, answering this question will not reveal your identity.
I have not participated in this discussion; I am just curious as I suppose others are as well.
Borough Park Mensch -“Calling oneself an “expert in medicine” is a strong statement. Respecfully, Health, would you tell us if you hold the degree of Doctor of Medicine (M.D.) and whether or not you are licensed to practice medicine?
I know you have expressed concern about your privacy, but really, answering this question will not reveal your identity.
I have not participated in this discussion; I am just curious as I suppose others are as well.”
So because you changed your SN -I am now going to answer you?
You admitted that you know that I’ve expressed concern about my privacy -so you’re here awhile, but I don’t recognize your SN.
But keep it up – the pressure is really going to make me give in.
At least I claim to be an expert in something -what are you an expert in?
Health: Didn’t you say you are a nurse or in school to become some kind of PA?
Anyways, I am a brain surgeon if anyone has any questions on that topic.
bubka -“Health: Didn’t you say you are a nurse or in school to become some kind of PA?”
Not that I recall. Maybe others asked me that, but I never answered.
bubka -“Anyways, I am a brain surgeon if anyone has any questions on that topic.”
Just in case you’re for real, which I doubt, I have a question.
In a pt. with increased ICP and a positive CT for angio pathology – do you have to do an angiogram before you look for the problem? Also, what type of angiogram?
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