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What Nusach do you daven?
The Choices are:
1) Ashkenaz
2) Sefard
3) Ari
4) Eida Mizrachi
5) Other (?)
Ari
I don’t daven (anymore)
Why is that Jonathon? if u dont mind my asking, also may i ask the op what the point of this thread is?
Jonathan
You must have gone through a lot to come to this point.
I’m wondering if you could possibly just think in your mind “Thank you” whenever you feel something good going your way.
I daven a unique nusach which is similar to Nusach haGra in some ways, Nusach Sefard in some ways, and Edot haMizrach in some ways. It also has some unique differences which no other nusach has. I’m not going to explain, because it’s much too complicated. All I’m going to say is, I didn’t make it up.
ovktd: Please explain and expand on your comment.
Ashkenaz before aliyah, Sfard after.
oy vey, I also have a unique subset of Ashkenaz, with some editing to conform to the Gemara, some line up with Sfard, some Mizrach, some Ari,(chabad) and heavy Gra influence. I also won’t tell, but interesting that this came up twice.
Mamashtaleh, why the change?
oy vey, I also have a unique subset of Ashkenaz, with some editing to conform to the Gemara, some line up with Sfard, some Mizrach, some Ari,(chabad) and heavy Gra influence. I also won’t tell, but interesting that this came up twice.
Mamashtaleh, why the change?
Ashkenaz (though I am Sephardi according to recent DNA test confirmation and dark skin). 🙂
well, dos is a shvere kashe.
Twisted, when you say “V’l’yerushalayim,” what do you say first? “U’vneh osah,” or “V’chisei David?”
Chein: No.
There’s no justification for such a mishmash.
Ashkenaz.
Chein: Yes, there is.
Chein: It is no more of a “mishmash” than Nusach HaGra.
The difference is that the Gra instituted that, not you.
As I stated before, I didn’t make it up. It was instituted by one of the gedolei hador who, in his expertise in all areas of Torah, decided which is the most accurate way to daven.
“It was instituted by one of the gedolei hador who, in his expertise in all areas of Torah, decided which is the most accurate way to daven.”
Then why not share the source?
YehudaTzvi: Because.
oy vey: Are you in your early teens?
Well, I’m satisfied. Sure, I may be davening incorrectly, but because” is good enough for me!
Frumguy
What Nusach do you daven?
The Choices are:
1) Ashkenaz
2) Sefard
3) Ari
4) Eida Mizrachi
5) Other (?)
You left out a nusach that is much older than any of the above,
Nusach Italia.
It’s been used by Italian Jews for nearly 2,000 years, which is approximately how long the Italian community has been in existence
shlishi: Yes.
YehudaTzvi: No one is telling you to daven the nusach that I do. “Because” should be enough to let you know that I have a good reason. It should also be enough to tell you that I don’t want you to know what that reason is.
Also, where is Sepharadi (Spain)? Not the same as Sefard (Chassidische).
YehudaTzvi- Generally the Jews from Spain nowadays pray Eida Mizrachi since most moved out to Morrocco and the middle east. Then you have those few exceptions of the Sephardim who are from Italy, Gibraltar, and a couple of others, and their prayers just consists a slight change. Nothing major.
Oy vey…
“It was instituted by one of the gedolei hador who, in his expertise in all areas of Torah, decided which is the most accurate way to daven.”
Then…
“No one is telling you to daven the nusach that I do. “Because” should be enough to let you know that I have a good reason. It should also be enough to tell you that I don’t want you to know what that reason is.”
No, sorry, this makes no sense. In effect, you are placing a stumbling block in front of all of us in regard to tefillah if, in fact, it is the most accurate way to daven. Others ahve posted about the proper way to bow during oseh shalom and other correct ways of doing things. If we are not davening the most accurate nusach then I would hope you would enlighten us or at least let us know the Gadol Ha-Dor to whom you refer. I am not judging or inquiring for no reason. i take tefilah very seriously and if I am making a mistake or doing something incorrectly, I would like to fix it or at least ask my Rav if there is validity.
YehudahTzvi said: “In effect, you are placing a stumbling block in front of all of us in regard to tefillah if, in fact, it is the most accurate way to daven. Others ahve posted about the proper way to bow during oseh shalom and other correct ways of doing things. If we are not davening the most accurate nusach then I would hope you would enlighten us or at least let us know the Gadol Ha-Dor to whom you refer.”
The most accurate way for you to daven is the mesorah that you recieved from your father or rebbi. If it said in the Gemara, Shulchan Aruch, Rema, Shach, Taz, Magen Avraham, Aruch Hashulchan, Chacham Tzvi, and Mishna Berura that it’s assur to say a certain word in tefillah, but you were taught to say it, then I would advise you not to. However, there are always different opinions.
Let me give you some examples. The rav who made the shinuyim in the nusach held that you’re not supposed to say any Tehillim before saying Baruch She’amar. Therefore, I don’t say Mizmor Shir. He held you’re not supposed to say “Baruch hu uvaruch shemo.” He had many reasons for that. One reason was because it’s a hefsek. Some acharonim agree with that. Some disagree. But he had his own opinions, and Klal Yisroel is not bound to his shitos.
My point is, don’t worry about it. Do what your father does, unless it’s clearly against halacha.
Ashkenaz.
Frumguy: Where are all the truly ancient nuschaos with real mesorah? Morrocan, Spanish, Baladi, ??? ???, Italian, etc.
Ashkenaz is the only nussach on your list that predates the acharonim.
I’m open: I use Turkish, Greek, Bagdadi, and Aleppo Syrian
Mamashtaleh, why the change?
There are 5 shules on my yishuv. All of them daven either Sfard, Eidot Mizrach, or Ari. The two shules where I daven are nushach Sfard. I decided when we came that I wanted to be a part of the minyan, and daven along with everyone else. I spoke to the Rav at length, and he agreed I should switch. (BTW, he himself davens Ashkenaz when not davening for the amud.)
There is one shule that has one minyan a week that’s Ashkenaz – an early morning Shabbat minyan.
mamash: Why not do the same as your Rov does (daven Ashkenaz when not at the amud)?
Oy Vey, unfortunately for me neither my Father’s (A”H) or mother’s family were frum.
Again, I assumed we were Ashkenaz but recently found out that were are indeed Sephardim who migrated east to Lithuania at some point (confirmed Sephardic using a DNA test).
I am not harping on what you do, mind you. I actually tried switching from Ashkenaz to Sephard (my wife’s family are originally Satmar – she has an incredible Shtar Yichus to King Dovid, I got nuthin’) and I got very ill.
When i became frum, I decided to take on Yekke minhagim as my Mother’s family were very assimlated Germans/Austrians. Since there was no one JEWISH, let alone frum from that side, I took it on. 3 hours, washing before Kiddush, Tefillin on Chol HaMoed WITH a bracha, no Mayim Acronim, use Rodelheim siddur, etc. I had all their grandparents’ old machsorim (replete with prayers for the Kaiser) and use them on the Chagim. When I got married, I tried to get out of it and switch to regular Ashkenaz but was told by a Rav that my minhagim were mehudar and not to switch. Then when I found out I was Sephardic I asked the question again and Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky poskened that I should keep the Yekkish ways and not switch.
It is a hodgepodge of nusachim. My wife is a Breslov at heart. Her family is Yeshivish but originally Satmar. I am a Sephardic Yekke and that’s how we roll.
I am always wondering if I am doing it wrong.
YehudaTzvi: You were given a psak to not change. There’s no reason for you to continue wondering. Just stick to it.
BTW, I didn’t follow what you described about your mother’s side. They are geirim? If so, how does she have machzorim from Germany?
Chein: No, mom’s side are are not converts, just very assimilated Jews in German/Austrian/Swiss culture. My grandparents met at a HaShomer HaZtair youth camp in Vienna. My family then fled to Bolivia during the war.
I should have been more clear. My mother’s brothers married goyim, so I have many cousins who think they are Jewish but are not. Interestingly, most people on my Father’s side ARE Jews but consider themselves Catholic (R”L) due to all the women marrying Italian men. My father is the only son of an only son (as am I). This small strand has stayed Jewish, kosher Kohanim with no intermarriage. B”H, I have revived my family from destruction and have (BA”H) four frum, holy children.
And for the record I was being extreme about my Yichus. I have family trees for both sides going back to when everyone was frum a few generations ago. The pre-war German Jews tried to be just like the Goyim. Even after the war, my relatives spoke German (never Yiddish). My dad’s side was the gefilte fish eating Yiddish speaking Yidden (who were actually Sephardic).
This thread reminds me of the Yom Kippur night when the rov saw that ???? ???? were not so open, so he would not begin the ?? ????. The kehilla waited, to no avail.
Next door, a simple shepherd who could not read, said with such kavanah the aleph bais and begged Hashem to put the letters in the correct order of the tfilla.
It was this simple shepherd’s nusach that opened the gates.
oy vey, I (we) put u’veneh osa last, because the rule ” ma’ain chasima samooch la’chasima” rules. Do I know you?
Mamashtakeh: So not the huge jump that I thought. It tickles my curiosity why the Rav counseled you to change, while he did not. I see many places in the Holy City that bechavana don’t hold to a particular nusach to make everybody welcome. I think it is mistaken, but the sky has not fallen yet.
oy vey, I (we) put u’veneh osa last, because the rule ” ma’ain chasima samooch la’chasima” rules. Do I know you?
mamash: Why not do the same as your Rov does (daven Ashkenaz when not at the amud)?
For one reason, I like davening everything along with the rest of the shule. Another reason is I personally just don’t like switching back and forth (I daven for the amud alot). Third reason is the Rav gave a psak that it would not be a problem. Fourth reason is the majority of Israelis daven Sfard. Last reason is I like the wording better – it makes more sense to me.
(A few months ago, I attended the morning minyan at a shiva house up the street several times to help make a minyan. For various reasons, I davened for the amud, and it was nusach Ashkenaz. After over 4 years of davening exclusively nusach Sfard, it was extremely difficult to go back to Ashkenaz. I had to literally daven with my finger on each word to make sure I didn’t mess up.)
twisted: Probably not.
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