Now What?? post pesach covid thoughts. Entitled generation being challenged

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I hear people say that when this is over it will be a different world. I don’t really see it, but i certainly am davening hard for it to happen.
Well said!

Wise words from someone so young. Unfortunately, my guess is that the time spent writing this well thought out treatise will go to waste as it gets buried in the CR archives. I wish someone would give you the forum to speak to your generation. Unfortunately, when it comes from older bearded Rabbis they are seen as “kill-joy fuddy duds”. Your message to a generation of yeshivalight is powerful and speaks to the other 10% too.

Unfortunately, your view is very much a yeshivaish issue. It is nis not the other 90% of us. As a baalat tshuva I did not have your experiences. I hope that this experience of Covid will allow us all to realize what is important. That is coming close to hashem and judging people favourably. I have felt that the yeshiva world has looked down, judged and had an elite attitude about themselves. Of course, not all…. But too many times, I have felt it. We are all one. Your post should be an article in YWN.

Unfortunately in today’s generation when a person or klal yisroel as a nation faces a problem we have a major problem called FACING REALITY almost everyone will block it from their face and convince themselves that what does this horrific coronavirus wake up call coming directly from Hashem have to do with me? What do you want from me Hashem? But in the back of our minds we all know the truth-myself included-were just not ready 3 FACE REALITY and admit to Hashem that we get your wake up call for serious teshuva ASAP together as a nation and we will all do teshuva ASAP, so we tragically continue to live in denial and leave Our loving father Hashem no choice but to continue hitting us with Horrific tragedies R”L.

How much longer will it take for us to wake up and FACE REALITY? How come the gedolei Hador have still not made a time for serious teshuva achdus and tefilla with fasting like they did in Nineveh and in the story of Purim? How much worse do we need it to get C”V?

I daven on behalf of the entire klal yisroel that we wake up ASAP together to serious teshuva and achdus so it doesn’t get worse C”V

Are we all seriously blind and think the Coronavirus situation is just coincidence shutting down the entire world and locking us all into our homes? WAKE UP MY LOVING BROTHERS.
Hashem loves his children klal yisroel and is waiting to bring Mashiach as soon as we do teshuva

Dear Nurit,
It would be wonderful if we where made up of 90% Baalei Teshuva. The more money, less values, path, is the widest path right now. The fundraising is everywhere. Though not all are as caught up in it as Chaim was.

Kurt Eichenwald (Jewish father, non-Jewish mother) just accurately pointed out that much of the country — not just Jews — are resentful at having to put up with inconveniences that are nothing to what our parents and grandparents had to put up with during World War II — and he was talking about those who were safe in America, not those facing genocide in Europe.

We will get through this. If we continue to prevent the spread of the virus most of us will survive long enough to benefit from the vaccine that will come. The economy will rebound quite quickly, as it did after the H1N1 pandemic — as long as the government doesn’t continue stupid policies like trade wars. Our infrastructure is not bombed out like much of Europe after the world wars; the loss of life, while large, will not be anything like the 1940s; and pent up demand from being confined to home will be a huge boost to many industries.

All difficult times are opportunities for self-reflection. This has been a consistent Jewish theme since the time of Chazal — really since the time of the Naviim! We can appreciate that which Hashem has gifted us and share with those less well off.

Chaim:

I hear you, and recognize that you utter painful truth. I also see comments, which B”H do not reflect a lot of backlash. So you have garnered several who agree with you.

Now the sour grapes. You are correct in noting that the “Moshiach is coming” approach is counter-productive. It removes us from focusing on our tafkid. It sells itself as a defense mechanism to cope with the immense and severe anxiety we have while experiencing this crisis. This is amplified when we watch the tragic deaths around us. Today’s media is reporting the number of pages of obituaries from various newspapers and publications. The mechanism sells itself as a sanctimonious thing, as we are all supposed to be maaminim about the coming of Moshiach. But it diverts our avodah on our own, unique self-improvement. We are too easily sucked into the trap of running around to collect impressions from our Gedolei Yisroel for a reason why the tragedy has befallen us. “It’s all because of talking in shul.” “It’s because of bitul Torah.” “It’s because of inadequate tznius.” Etc. Rav Shteinman ZT”L was not one of those apt to make general statements like this, and would respond that we should do our own cheshbon hanefesh and fix the problems we find.

The kollel system has many advantages. Yet, we are far more prone to encounter the casualties. It is silly to give the responsibility of managing a home to someone with zero means. Our Chazal guided us to have a career path prior to marriage. No, I am not against kollel or learning after the wedding. But we have vilified the one that works, makes an honest living, and is koveya ittim. We have said the vilest things about a bochur that seeks training in a field where parnosoh would be enabled, so that he doesn’t need to spend his life as a dependent. We subjugated the shidduch system to this upside down perception of Torah value, and made the “catch of the day” the “learning boy”. This comes with zero assurance that the “learning boy” is not someone just with the label, and no one knows whether this “catch” will end up in places unbecoming to a real learning boy. And it says nothing at all about the midos that will be brought into the marriage. So it became about money. Should money marry money? Should the rich marry outside of their financial strata? Aren’t we all entitled to spend the early years of marriage with the bills being paid by someone else? You nailed it. Entitlement. A dependent generation.

My sad realization is that we are less than truthful when we declare our lifestyle choice about being a “ben Torah”, or about Yir’as Shomayim. It’s more likely to be a direct result of following the masses that espouse this upside down perception of Ratzon Hashem. It certainly lacks credibility when one reviews the many psukim and Divrei Chazal. But if it sounds holy, it must be the quickest road to heaven. Sorry, but I’ll return to the guidance of our Neviim and Chazal before following these trends and styles. Maybe, just maybe, some of this will be part of the process we develop in our effort to return to normal after COVID.

I’ve noticed some local young Youngeleit who have been on Bein Hazemanim since Purim. They are at a crossroads now. I am referring to the guys who are in Kollel for social or remedial reasons. They have no daily Beis Medrish destination into which they can disappear and don’t have the zihtzfleisch to learn for more than about an hour at a time, certainly not by phone in a dining room of a house that has become their hotel. So, unless a Kollel guy is in fact “the real deal” (acumen, potential, and zihtzfleisch), the current matzav has made it pretty obvious that he should really be doing something else, starting right now, and with the rest of his life. Camping out as a couple or young family by one set of parents indefinitely, might seem like living the good life now. But, it’s really just a postponement of their growing up and maturing from their entitlement. There are plenty of people from the older generation who in fact had greater hasmodah as bochurim, yet went to work right away after marriage to support their families.

Although I agree 100% with the OP I do not agree with all the doomsayers of what will be the result of this. It does not need to mean that kollel enrollments will drop and that everyone will get “a dose or reality”. Hopefully it will be a wake up call to the younger generation to live a lifestyle more like the kollel families of the 70’s and 80’s. Less materialistic, not relying on parents, no entitlement expectations and most importantly—a renew commitment for mesirus nefesh for Torah. I did not get parental support during my kollel years and I think I was better off because of it. I made a couple of bucks during bein hasedarim and at night and it made me appreciate every minute I was privileged to still be in yeshiva. Hopefully we will “get it” and our yungerlight will gain that appreciation too.
Remember when a yeshivishe car meant a beat up 15-20 year old station wagon? Today it means a 1-2 year old Camry or SUV. There was a certain pride of those who drove the “woody” station wagon that ran on bitachon. Let’s bring those days back and ditch the whole gimme liefstyle which entails living off someone else’s pain and sweat.

I don’t think that there will be any “wake-up call” where they will give up the perks. If the clock were turned back to the 70’s and 80’s, none of the people we are talking about would be incentivized to go into Kollel. The perks to which they have become entitled are very much at the core of the issue.
I am wondering if parents and in-laws, having had the opportunity to see first-hand over the past 2 months, whom they have been supporting, will finally wake-up and smell the coffee. Many of the parents/in-laws are experiencing business and job challenges themselves, which might give them pause to how their now more scarce money is being spent.
A related point is that the Yeshiva system has evolved to a point where there is vested self-interest to hold on to guys until they are into their 30’s. It maintains the funding stream and has created jobs which previously never existed.
Parents and in-laws have become increasingly connected to this system in order to give them validation as frum Yidden. This drives the chinuch choices for their children from a young age which ultimately sets them onto this trajectory. They don’t realize that the seeds toward this lifestyle are planted very early. And the longer that their kids stay in the system, the less hashpa’ah they will have as role models.

Every time there’s been a recession over the last 60 years we’ve heard those with a more leftward view smirking and saying “the Kollel system is now over.” We’ll continue hearing that refrain from those same circles for the next 60 years.

That said, the Kollel system over the last 60 years has certainly improved the spiritual welfare of Klal Yisroel. It has been a tremendous tremendous benefit that outweighs whatever faults one might find in it.

Dear Joseph,
Kollel is not a system. Someone who is married, and needs a system to learn all day……….. I am disgusted when my yeshiva friends are surprised to see working men, learning all day on legal holidays. Which leads to my point. If we are talking about to much materialism in kollel life today, then we missed the point. Someone who is learning Torah all day, does not see any merit in extra materialism. Which means that we are not being raised to learn all day. Only to stay in the Beis Medrash. Which is great. We could become the janitors and administrators of the kollel.

As an outsider of sorts, I liked the start of the thread. I notice a lifestyle and high end attitude that I am not accustomed to myself in certain circles. At first I thought that maybe some of you guys are brought up with a higher aspiration than I did in my neighborhood.
Regardless, my point is in the replies which concern me. Someone made the joke about new versus old cars. Same here in my secular high school, college, and so on. Why did they drive new cars and not 10 year old ones? The non-Jewish world is even more entitled! Look at the “I want a haircut” people outside of New York. It is going to upset you to hear, but a chunk of them do not believe that the virus is that bad, and some don’t believe it even exists! Yes, that is not a typo and what you have to deal with out there. You are talking in a way that the worst is behind you and the future. About half of the nation is so entitled, that they’re just going to deem it safe, and ignore the consequences to return to normal (for them) as quick as possible. This thing is far from over. Maybe it is in other countries, but not here. The more I ponder this the harder time I have. Entitled for going to school versus entitled with silly expressions I won’t type out and going to a parade or concert during a pandemic because you feel like it, and whatever happens happens.
I disagree.

Maybe the problem here is, I don’t see what’s so different or exclusive other than the fact that we have the option to go somewhere as great as Israel. But then, these entitled I want a haircut folks travel too. In some countries it’s called Gap year and they take a year off from college, that’s their culture, a years vacation during college! So, maybe the problem isn’t so much that you wanted to marry someone pretty, and then calling that entitled. Maybe it has to do with the world at large. Should we have this near libertarian “to each their own” mentality for the world? Have you seen any American politicians or groups apologize and say they were wrong to ignore and downplay the virus and do nothing. The mayor of NY, the MTA head, anyone else. Or are they all entitled so as to pretend they’re some quick thinking savior? So far I’ve seen the head of France apologize and talk unity and that is it. Everyone else is taking credit where they failed.
There’s something wrong in this society and its views towards life, and they’re going to give you a second wave of covid if civilization isn’t exported somehow. I thought I saw international unity and cooperation with no borders 2 months ago. Now I see protests, divisions, and haircut battles in the US. A pandemic can’t even bring these people together!

@commonsaychel your comment about horror of horrors people might thinks about leaving kollel and going to work as clay kodesh shows just how much you know actually know about the yeshiva/kollel system and leads me to question why you are spending your time commenting on it.

@n0mesorah a system is “a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network.” People who are not working for a living but instead learn for most of the day need something in place to allow them to have chavrusas, discuss what they are learning with peers, and have all requisite seforim vichulu. They also need a financial support system which includes an institution that is raising money and allocating it. And your yeshiva friends are surprised to see working men learning all day on legal holidays because they are few and far between.

@ Rabbi Greenspan, My father was from the original kollel yungerlite in the first Kollel in the US [BME], my sons went thru the kollel system as did my son in law, all with partial support and a very simple lifestyle now they all work,. how familiar are you with the kollel system

Dear Rabbi,
I am referring to married men needing direction in what to learn and how to find a good chavrusa and so on. I am not questioning the pre-marriage set up. Once i set out on my own, I need to figure out how to spend my time learning. Otherwise, there are better ways for me to serve Hashem.

@n0mesorah you seriously think that because people feel they will do better learning as part of a klal they are better off serving hashem by selling insurance? And for the record most decent sized kollelim have different options and different limudim that allow people to choose what they want to learn. The kollel infrastructure isn’t there to direct anyone what to learn or to arrange chavrusas. It’s there because throughout our history we learnt in yeshivos, not alone. The reason we didn’t have this particular setup untill recently was because few married learnt full days until recently. And how would you take care of the financial aspect if everyone is learning in his basement? If your agenda is that everyone should go to work than say it outright, but if not I totally don’t get you.
@common To answer your question I come across it on a daily basis (pre covid)

@n0mesorah “Learning is not democratic” If you mean it’s not something you can choose whether or not you want to do, I agree. I don’t see what that has to do with the kollel system.
“One has to learn according to their capabilities” Which is why people join kollelim or chaburas in kollelim that correspond with their capabillities.
“We cannot afford the kollel for all mentality take over the torah” I don’t see it as kollel for all, and it definitely isnt taking over the torah. But it does strengthen torah when so many people are learning.
“If one does not have a chavrusa or his chavrusa is not up to snuff it is not an excuse” Correct, but people will learn better with chavrusas, and there are sources in gemara for that. (cherev al habadim)
It comes down to finances because people wont learn well, (or do anything else well) when they are homeless.
Im convinced of my opinion, your convinced of yours and im pretty sure you want the last word so I’m done here.