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please dont make me feel like a stranger when i walk in to “your” shul. by coming over to me to wellcome me. half the shul did it already. shul is not mine or yours, but hashems. i belong here just as much as you do. all these welcomes just make me very uncomfertable. your all loudy telling me this is not my place but yours. dont drill me on who im by and how im related to them either its all not very nice
if people ignore you you will feel more welcome?
It’s all a question of HOW it’s done.
I’m with g73. I’m not sure what you want from them.
A shul is primarily about services (davening and such) but is secondarily a community. Its why I shlep my two little kids to shul every shabbos, even though I don’t go in. I think its important to be a part of a community.
lavdavka:
I feel the same way, but many people do like it when people come over and are them mekarev.
lavdavka;
I believe you that it makes you uncomfortable.
I do not think that is the expected response, though. When I am a guest and people say hello, I appreciate it. I do not know why you are bothered by it.
Lav,
First of all, please don’t shout (by typing in ALL CAPS). It makes it difficult to read and is not considered proper netiquiette.
Secondly, I recently ran into a similar issue on these boards. I posted in another thread that I try to say “Good Shabbos” to every Jew I see in the street on Shabbos — man or woman, young or old. A female poster on the board said that I should not do so because it would make her uncomfortable to have a “Good Shabbos” from a man.
So, I’m left with a bit of a conundrum. Do I say “Good Shabbos” to a woman because she might feel uncomfortable? Or do I simply forge ahead on the basis that most people would like to be greeted and therefore ignoring the minority? Heck, I’m sure there are probably men out there too who would rather I not say “Good Shabbos” to them too — but they, too, are the minority. So, do I stop for the minority, or do I just plow ahead? It’s a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t situation.
Ultimately, I chose to forge ahead and continue to say “Good Shabbos” to people. I would prefer to err on the side of being too nice rather than on the side of not nice at all.
I believe the people in the shul you attended face the same dilema. Most people, I believe would want to be greeted if they were a stranger in a shul. Your case (where you’d rather be left alone) is IMHO the minority. That being said, I believe the best course of action for you would be to minimize the opportunity for people to greet you. The best way to do that would probably be to daven by the seat closest to the door and leave immediately after davening.
The Wolf
Wolf, I am with you. I say good shabbos to everyone. if they answer me, they answer me if not, not. Hevei makdim kal adam b’sholom.
Lavdavka, I think you have a problem, I am not sure what it is or why you feel the way you do. Most people who are new to a shul, would be DELIGHTED to have people take notice and say hello to them. Do you feel uncomfortable when noticed, like all eyes are on you, making you self-conscious? Then you should not go into any shul other than the tried and true one where you feel familiar. But know this: MOST friendly people WILL say good Shabbos to you. There is no hidden agenda. they are simply being menschen. The proper response is GOOD SHABBOS, said with a smile.
it’s liek giving a woman a compliment on her new dress and having her respond, “Oh, THIS old thing???” Inappropriate reaction to something nice. A simple thank you will do.
Lavdavka, being a baal teshuva I certainly empathize with your feelings. Perhaps people do judge or whatever because you look different, but don’t judge Judaism by the Yidden. No one is perfect yet.:) Still, the majority (I would like to believe) of Yidden just want to know you and that is why they perhaps ask tactless questions sometimes. My husband and I daven at one of the major yeshivas in Brooklyn and I have been asked what my last name was … and then told… oh, hmm, i never heard of that name. (lol) What can you do about people who don’t think? (The rest of our family is not yet frum so of course they have not heard the name.) Just daven these people get some much overdue seichel. When I come to shul/yeshiva I try to think why I am there, and it is to connect to Hashem and his Torah — it is nice to also connect to my fellow Yidden, but sometimes it just doesn’t exactly flow smoothly.
“MAYBE ITS B/C I KNOW THAT ITS PROBABLY B/C I LOOK DIFFERANT THEN THEM”
I’m not certain YOU are sure why you are uncomfortable. Maybe, its because you probably look different than them. Do you look different than they do? Possibly? Probably? Maybe not? I don’t even want to guess how you might look different because it is likely that I will guess wrong. Do you feel people are saying hello to try and pry into your life and to learn about your looking different? Are you uncomfortable with that difference? or the perceived insicerity of the hello?
Whatever the case may be, most people who come over and say hello do so because they simply want to say hello to someone new and make them feel welcome. If you prefer to be left alone, as has been suggested by someone else, slink into the back of the shul, sit in a seat right near the door and run out as soon as davening is over to assure as little contact as possible with everyone else.
My suggestion though, is to allow the kindness of people to positively affect you.
if no one welcomed you, you would probably complain that everyone ignores you and you feel like a stranger then,too. I personally would rather someone welcome me then being ignored. and i think most people are like that
don’t forget that similar to the whole welcome and good shabbos thing is thank you…
Do you say thank you because the giver needs the thank you, well maybe they do but really the thank you is for you the recipient to remind you of the tov you recieved.
Can we look at the possibility that the welcome and good shabbos is for my benefit (the giver) and not necessarily yours (the recipient).
lavdavka, you’re complaining that people are being nice? Really?! I can’t stand walking into shuls (and many other places) where people act as if you don’t exist. To each his own, I guess…
it’s simply common derech eretz. Rav Freifeld was very makpid regarding this, see his biography (a true mussar sefer).
“shul is not mine or yours, but Hashem’s” we have an obligation to emulate the Ribbono shel Olam, v’halachta bidrachav. He gives sholom to us-sholom sholom l’rachok ulkarov! in fact the rachok, maybe a guest or stranger? (as well as baal teshuva) gets sholom first!
sephardic.chabadnick, All I can say is don’t give up. We all have to go through our own nisyonos and only Hashem knows the reasons for this. Maybe you are being tested for your patience and your neighbors are being tested for their tolerance. They may all fail their individual tests but that is not your problem. Your concern should be handling your own nisayon. Maybe Hashem is testing your emunah and bitachon or he is testing your commitment. Or maybe he is just sending you a message that you are in the wrong community and should look for a warmer and more welcoming place to raise your daughter. After all it takes a village to raise a child.
Lavdavka, we all look different! Some of us are tall, some short, some fat, some thin. Some of us have acne, some of us don’t. Some of us have been blessed with beauty and others are challenged with various physical attributes or lack there of. So no matter how different you feel you look, everyone feels self-concious about themselves especially when they walk into a new place. In real communities people tend to be friendly and welcoming in shul. They also happen to be curious and want to connect with new people. They don’t mean to be nosy or pry into your business. And they haven’t chosen just you as a target, they welcome everyone and question everyone in the same manner. They may ask you what you do, so they will introduce you to others in the same profession. They will ask you where you live then ask if you met so and so on your block. They will ask you about your children and then tell you who in the shul sends their kids to the same school and who has kids the same age. They will let other people in the shul know a little about you and your wife so people can start inviting you over for shabbos meals. That’s what happens in our community and I am sure in other real community oriented neighborhoods.
I am not sure if anyone really cares
sephardic.chabadnick, I care.
I feel for you and I see you’re in pain.
Maybe someone can tell me: Is Hashem trying to tell me something?
Avrohom Avinu was tested with ten nisyonos. Dovid Hamelech went through a life full of hardships. Hashem tests the people He feels have the stregnth to withstand His tests which make them stronger and greater people.
Do I just not belong with my own people?
If you are Jewish, then you belong with the Jewish people, even if they are causing you pain.
I actually wanted to start a thread on that issue, but I felt that I will be misunderstood and considered judgemental so I didn’t. sephardic.chabadnik tell me if you feel my assesment regarding this situation was made in error, or if you feel I am right, please let me know.
I feel that there is an entire mass movement of making BT’s. People who are Jews are being shown the beauty of Yiddishkeit. These people get attracted to the truth and start living that way of life. Once they do that they are left to their own devices, the support and encouragement gets forgotton. Instead of being there for the BT’s who made tremendous sacrifices to live a Torah life and could use all the encouragement and support at least these BT’s(who are btw, on a higher level than tzaddikim) are forgotton and instead the focus is on the new batch of mass produced baal teshuvas.
But more important than support and encouragement they need a freind. Whoever guided baalei teshuvas into their becoming frum, need to be their as they enter the new world and when they are living a Torah lifestyle and be there for them as a friend.
We don’t need to worry about what will happen with the rest of klal Yisroel that is drifting away (okay I’m gettin ready to dodge bullets here from other posters). That is BEYOND our control. What is in our control is those whom we bring closer to Yiddishkeit, we need to be there for them. We need to be their freinds and help them with their needs. They are not only neshomos that you’ve helped becoming Jewish and finsihed, your done. They are people with feelings and with struggles, especially with their new life and identity. They need you long after you’ve introduced them to Yiddishkeit. They need you as a freind for life.
sephard.chabad., tell me if I’m with my assesment of this situation is correct and if you think this is the problem in your situation as well.
sephardic.chabadnik, one thing though I do understand the community you are in. The fact is, although it might be painful to face, your daughter is as of now not a Jew and therefore she can’t be accepted into yeshiva. About children of full fledged goyim being accepted, it is most probably due to the fact that only the fathers are non-Jews. If the mother of the child is a Jew, then the child is too, regardless if the father is not.
Aboslutely do not throw in the towel! You are already here! You are close to Hashem, the God of your father and forfathers, stretching all the way to Avrohom Avinu! Do not give up! Challenges eventually pass. It is hard. It might take a long time, but you will eventually be at peace with the right decisions you make.
Remember Hashem is with you ALL THE TIME. Cry to Him, talk to Him. You are in a postition to be very close to Hashem because you are being moser nefesh for the truth and the ultimate Truth is Hakodesh Baruch Hu.
May Hashem give you the strength and courage to continue and may He grant you peace and serenity every day of your life.
sephardic.chabadnick, you will see, if you make the right choices, you will not regret it.
sephardic.chabadnick: My heart goes out to you. Right now, you might feel like you’re stuck in a box with no way to move. Much of what I would have said was said above by philosopher. Feel free to ignore my suggestions, I’ll try to be generic, since I dont know the specific specifics of your life.
1. If moving to a different community is at all possible, then think about it. Its a terribly sad fact that not every Jew is as perfect or as good as we might like them to be, and also sad that you may have been exposed to some people who are “still in training”. Do research, speak to community Rabbis, call people in community centers but it might be worth your while to walk in somewhere with a fresh start for both you and them.
2. Choose one part of your relationship with Hashem and give it your all. Dont skimp on anything. Every day, take one paragraph of Tefillah, a chapter of Tehillim, a bracha, or even just in your own words. And tell Hashem whats in your heart. Not because people might be watching, but the real thing.
Remember, “Shivisi Hashem L’negdi Samid” means that Hashem is always in front of you. It not only means that a person should distance themselves from sin, but exactly what it says, Hashem is always in front of you. You! He doesn’t leave to deal with someone elses problem, He’s all yours. Use the oppurtunity. Tell Him exactly how you feel. I promise, He’s listening.
May Hashem bless you with peace of mind, and happiness through every journey life takes you through.
P.S. please keep commenting here, I know I for one, (and I’m sure many other people) care to know how everything is going. Please keep us updated.
🙂
BS”D
I was really touched to find that there are actually some people out there who believe in Ahavat Yisroel. For the two nice people that responded to my post, I think I need to further clarify the position so that there is no misunderstanding.
First of all…I understand the 10 tests Hashem gave to Avraham Aveinu. I am certain that because I am a strong individual that there is some type of spiritual growth at the end of this. I can only hope!
Also I should give more clarification on my level of observance and level of knowledge. I am 100% Jewish as both of my parents are Sephardic Jews with fully traceable lineage. My mothers side of the family are Leviim and my great grandfather was an Orthodox Rabbi in Casablanca, Morrocco. The religion is very strong on this side of the family. Problem: They all live in Israel and I cannot get out of here due to severe financial hardships. I daven Shacharit (with Tephillin), Mincha and Maariv including the viduy & tachnun except for when not required. I attend at least one class a week even though I am a single parent. My daughter is 100% observant. So much, that all of the shliach’s daughters in the area have personally befriended her. My daughter the purported ‘non-Jew’ (realize that this is a technicality. Her Neshama is one of ours) I know this because of the incredible protection she has received from Hashem prior to me winning custody of her. She will not hang out with secular children, because she does not feel comfortable with them. She has denounced her birth mother’s religion (catholic) as ‘idol-worshiping’. We are no joke! Make no bones about it, we are extremely tough people because we have risen from the ashes many times.
Philosopher – You are 100% correct in your assessment, but you may not understand the degree of cruelty that actually takes place.
The goy child being let into the Hebrew Academy is NOT FROM A JEWISH MOTHER. She is in the process of converting and although she is a very pious individual, fact remains that she and the child are not Jewish. The reality of the situation is that she is a community favorite and has won the hearts of the Shliachs. To make matters worse, this woman is my ex-girlfriend from before coming back to the religion.
I am also receiving the run around about trying to get my daughter into the mikvah. I am being told that she needs to be in Yeshiva to complete conversion. They will not let her into Yeshiva, because she is not Jewish. Am I just supposed to stand around and let my own people abuse me?
When people wake up and know what Ahavat Yisroel is again (we haven’t has since before the second Bet Hamigdash was destroyed) Moshiach will come. (Remember, it was destroyed because we could not treat one another with love.) But until then…I am afraid we once again sow our own destruction, because people cannot get over money, politics, popularity, big business hechshers ripping off the poor with impossible prices, caring only about their own share in the world to come and nobody else’s. Doesn’t anyone really read Perkei Avot anymore? Nope! too busy worrying about insignificant material meshugas and putting the less fortunate down.
Another thing I will say is that I am not a brown-noser. So if being one is what it takes to get accepted in a Jewish community then I’m done. I am an intelligent, educated and respectable human being and I am treated as if I am much lesser because I am poor. I am only poor because I sacrifice every penny to give my daughter a pure yiddushkeit life. In the end, I just want her to grow up to be a Jew and marry a decent man. I could care less about my own material gain. Let’s just say that I am not a person to take too much abuse. I was the only Jew who didn’t run when the Klan invaded my college campus. The rest of our ‘tribe’ ran like a bunch of cowards, leaving me to fight them all by myself which I did. My point is, what happened to the great Benai Yisroel who is supposed to be unified under Hashem bringing light to other nations. Nobody is calling our people out when they do wrong to each other. I see a lot of corruption. I won’t give up, but isolation seems better than interfacing with people who don’t care about others and don’t even stand up for themselves.
Hashem performed a great miracle by delivering my daughter from a pure evil environment. Surely He will not allow all of this struggle to go to waste. This is what I tell myself every day.
The problem is I’m tired and I’m fed up. My patience is exhausted and I have to fight ill feelings all of the time. To do this, I try to say Tehillim and meditate on the greatness of Hashem.
Sometimes I would like to settle some of these issues in the boxing ring with the primary offender. We, of course, are not a nation of blood thirsty beings.
sephardic.chadnick, I see you are made of tough stuff, a strong character that can overcome life’s diffulculties. Some of us seem to have more tests thrown our way.
First of all, I would like to suggest to you, don’t get bitter. I really understand what you are trying to say, I myself went through political favoritism, even though I am frum from birth. However, DO NOT GIVE UP! You will make it in the end. If Rabbis are with you regarding your daughter’s conversion, then push her into yeshivah. Push and push and you will get there.
But first of all, to work it the right way, why don’t you sit down with the principal of the yeshiva and ask him why they are doing it to you, why they are playing favoritism. You might find out something that may help your child get accepted.
You are an honest and strong person. Realize that even frum people need to grow in that area. So don’t come on too strongly. Give out your opinions in places such as the CR or other places that you can vent and let people hear the truth. If you tell it to their faces, they’ll reject you, unless you tell it to people that understand. Most people don’t.
Oh and I forgot, sephardic.chabadnick, chazak veyameitz!
sephardik.chabadnik, is it possible to go to next town and speak to the Chabad Rav over there?
Phil. -I do agree that all the BT makers and orgs. that there are -I find a lot of them are good at it, but then they throw the BT’s to the wolves so to speak. I don’t agree on giving up on people who are going or are OTD. I feel it’s more important to stop people from going off than it is to make BT’s!
Health, I find that most people don’t know how to answer people (mostly) kids who are in pain and are looking for answers. They don’t understand why these kids are running away and don’t understand their need to run. They argue instead of listen to understand. On the other hand when they are speaking to baalei teshuva or people they are trying to be mekarev they are so very willing to listen to their story and understand where they are coming from and where they or their family went on the wrong path in order to understand how they can show them how sweet yiddishkeit really is and how they can find the answers they seeks in the Torah. By the time most people who are involved in Kiruv find their “prey”, they see lost souls searching and looking for something that is missing in their lives. It is not so difficult to offer someone that has lost something a chance to recover it.
On the other hand someone who is in pain and running away from that pain and needs to be caught, held and comforted needs people who are willing to love them no matter what! Unconditionally, no matter what they look like, no matter what they say or sound like, no matter what rules or how many rules they are breaking because they are in a different matzav. They are not searching for something, they are running away from something. They are trying to numb their pain and suffering and trying to put space between themselves and their hurtful issues.
BS”D
BH for kind-hearted people.
Philosopher – if only I had friends like you where I lived 🙁 Perhaps soon G-d willing.
I’m NOT going to give in. I’ve never been a quitter. Had I been one, I would already be dead. But Hashem didn’t have that in the cards for me. He must have bigger plans. Hashem doesn’t waste talent, right? He just seems to use it where it is most needed.
Someday when this is all over I will have completed Rabbinical College and will be able to take more effective steps to fight for the rights of Ba’al Teshuvim. They need someone who understands the pain.
Unfortunately aries2756 – All of the Chabad houses in this area are exactly the same and I am just not in with the right people.
You know, I’ll just kill ’em with kindness. Put up a shul in a neighborhood that is NOT predominantly frum. Bring people back and teach them from the ground up. Instead of having evelyn wood speed davening, there should be courded that teach people not only how to daven, but how to maximize Kavanah when praying. I truly believe that these are the kind of things that Hashem really wants us to do.
I hope you will all continue to talk to me. I really do not want to fall off, but I am going it alone 99% of the time.
Thanks for your encouragement. Bracha Vi’Hatzlacha!
Sephardic- I hope you find the right people soon because my heart goes out for you.
If not for your sake then at least for your daughter that she should be happy and secure.
Hatzlacha and keep us posted.
Sephardic.Chabadnick,
You are obviously going through a tough time, and we all feel for you. It’s hard not to care about someone that is going through so much pain because they want to do the right thing for Hashem.
I would respectfully suggest that all CR members have you in mind in their tefillos. We should tell our friends as well. The power of tefilla is strong.
Hashem understands everything, so there is no NEED; but it is preferable to mention the person by name when you pray for them. You may not wish to do this; but please consider posting your hebrew name and your mother’s hebrew name (obviously no last names are necessary) so we can mention it during davening.
Please do keep us posted, we all do care, and hope things get better for you!!
Hang in there!!!
sephardic.chabadnick: I really dont think I can give you much practical help, but one thing that might be of help to you is to contact a Rabbi even out of your city. Maybe even one across the globe. It seems to me that often, people in (for lack of a better word) “leading” positions, often have many contacts which might be of help to you. Basically what I’m saying is that wherever you feel comfortable doing so, get the word out that you need help in this area. Dont give up because people dont seem interested. Hashem is running things, no one else.
I can only imagine what pleasure you are giving to Hashem by going out so far for your daughter.
S.Ch – you have a lot on your plate right now. Take care of the issues with your daughter first – that would seem to me to be the priority. It is too overwhelming to try to deal with all of it at once. I wish you much hatzlacha.
I got an idea, there is this really nice family that might be able to help you meet some people you are compatible with. Maybe tell them what kind of people you are looking for and they can help.
Search for Rabbi Benzion Klatzko on Google.com
throw the BT’s to the wolves
<Homer Simposon> MMMMM..... BTs...... </Homer Simpson>
::drool::The Wolf
lavdavka,
I’m really sorry you feel that way. I daven in a “heimishe” shul, almost every person gets a Shalom Aleichem. i say Heimishe, because I’ve noticed that Litvish or yeshivish are much cooler towards others. BTW i Am an FFB. When I attended the Mirrer Yeshiva many, many years ago, the saying was ” a new guy only gets a Shalom Aliechem by Kiddush levana!”
With regard to saying “good shabbos” to women, it is an inyan of tzniut.
I greet every man in the street, but not women. If a woamn says Good Shabbos to me, and I see that she might be “new” to this, i answer her, so as to be a mench.
With regard to saying “good shabbos” to women, it is an inyan of tzniut. I greet every man in the street, but not women.
That’s fine. No one says you have to follow my mehalech on the matter.
The Wolf
“That’s fine.”
He wasn’t asking for your haskomo.
He wasn’t asking for your haskomo.
I didn’t say he was. However, since I was the one who brought it up, it’s obvious that it was in response to my post. Hence I responded. If you would rather I not respond to people, just let me know.
I am under no illusions that anyone in the world needs my haskomo for anything at all.
The Wolf
I say Good Shabbos to everyone, man or woman, and if a man, do not look at him directly. I answer GS to anyone and everyone who says it to me first. My husband says good morning to non-Jews in the street on the way to shul. They ALL answer him back in kind.
People should stop making such a cause celebre out of this, in my opinion, and we will all be happier. Saying GS is only a tznius issue if you believe it to be. When it says hevei makdim es kal haadom b’sholom, it did not say, “unless you are a woman.”
BS”D
For all that wish to Daven for us my name is Avraham Ben Rena
Todah Raba Al Kol!
oomis1105
It also says “al tarbeh sicha im isha”. so?
Talking to a frum girl or woman that is a stranger is most definitely not tzniut. I’m not saying its assur, i am not a Rov, but it is not proper.
a non-jew is a different story, because of chilul hashem.
It also says “al tarbeh sicha im isha”. so?
You believe that saying “Good Shabbos” counts as being “Tarbeh B’Sicha?”
The Wolf
When it says hevei makdim es kal haadom b’sholom, it did not say, “unless you are a woman.”
Oomis- when it says al tarbah sicha em haisha, it didn’t say,”except a good morning greeting”.
I don’t think it’s appropriate to greet opposite genders when you’re only passing them on the street.
Of course if someone greets you then you answer back but there’s no reason for you to greet men. But that is your own decision and everyone is responsible over the decisions they make.
Oomis- when it says al tarbah sicha em haisha, it didn’t say,”except a good morning greeting”.
I don’t think it’s appropriate to greet opposite genders when you’re only passing them on the street.
Do you believe that saying “Good Shabbos” constitutes “Tarbeh B’Sicha?”
The Wolf
“It also says “al tarbeh sicha im isha”. so?
Talking to a frum girl or woman that is a stranger is most definitely not tzniut. I’m not saying its assur, i am not a Rov, but it is not proper.”
Well said.
smartcookie
Member
Oomis- when it says al tarbah sicha em haisha, it didn’t say,”except a good morning greeting”.
Actually, that is more or less exactly what it says. “Al tarbeh”, not “Al tasiach”.
Yes wolf- al tarbeh meaning only whatever is necessary.
Saying GM isn’t necessary. Take it from a woman. I’m perfectly ok WITHOUT greetings from every man on the street.
If they greet, they’re being EXTRA nice.
Saying GM isn’t necessary. Take it from a woman. I’m perfectly ok WITHOUT greetings from every man on the street.
If they greet, they’re being EXTRA nice.
Interesting….
When it came to head coverings, members of this board seemed to say that it was horrible if a woman didn’t aspire to the level of Kimchis. “Why settle for the minimum” was the battle cry.
Yet, when it comes to greeting people, we’re being told, “don’t bother going the extra mile. Stick to the minimum.”
Suffice it to say, I believe that greeting people whenever possible should be done — be they man or woman, Jew or Gentile, young or old. I don’t think that being rude (yes, I call it rude when you purposely don’t greet someone) is what the Torah wants from us.
The Wolf
I don’t think that being rude (yes, I call it rude when you purposely don’t greet someone) is what the Torah wants from us.
Therein lies the problem. People determining right and wrong from their “feelings” about what the Torah demands from us. What does a Talmid Chochom tell you that the Torah wants regarding this question. Not your “feelings” which are certainly derived in large part from the non Torah world, about what the Torah wants from us.
feivel, you are right, but your point is tangental to this issue.
Wolf is correct that the Mishna says “Al Tarbeh”, which does not imply that one should ignore women. Further, he pointed out that “Mekabel es kol odom” also implies extending courtesy and greeting to all people (unless women are not people).
Wolf, it isn’t rude not to greet others THAT U HAVE NO CLUE WHO THEY ARE AND U JUST PASS THEM BY ON THE STREET.
Does your Rav greet your wife on the street? Does his Rebbetzin greet you?
It isn’t a mitzvah in theleast bit.
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