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I have seen a lot of anti chabad on this site, and i’ve realized a lot of it stems bc theirs a widely accepted belief that all of chabad is meshichus. In reality its not even most. Every sect of judiasm and life in itself has its issues yet with every other community we don’t only focus on its problems. why can we not see the beauty in chabad with the kiruv and hachnasas orchim that they do too? A lot do not believe that the rebba is still alive thats not a chabad as a whole belief thats meshichistes, make the distinction.
I don’t know the numbers, but from what I’ve heard from multiple sources is that the vast majority of Lubavitchers believe that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe will return as Moshiach.
Madeofmeaning:
There are two camps: the ones who believe he is actively moshiach and “alive” right now (whatever that means), and those that believe moshiach can come from the dead by way of techias hameisim happening first.I do not believe there are any Lubavitchers who believe the moshiach will by definition have to be someone other than the Rebbe (due to his death), which is the belief of the entire rest of the frum world.
Per our (non-Chabad) definitions, all Lubavitchers are meshichists because none of them are willing to say “the Rebbe cannot be moshiach.” Now, by their definitions, they might identify as “anti-meshichists” when they’re in the techias hameisim camp. In other words, they’re “not” meshichist relative to the super-meshichist, yechiist types, but the rest of us don’t care about this distinction.
As a side note, what I’m explaining is how they can tell fellow frum yiddin that they’re “non-meshichist” with it sort of not being a lie in their minds. As far as their aggressive wikipedia editing campaign and other PR things they do to tell the world it’s only a small fringe, that’s just straight up sheker. I have no idea how they justify it.
At least 90% of lubavitchers are Meshichist. They barely do any kiruv and they charge an exorbitant amount of money for a small meal.
Yes, it is the vast majority. .
It is logical , as that’s what their rebbi himself promoted.If meshichus isn’t the mainstream Lubavitche ideology how can there hang a huge sign in 770 proclaiming ” long live our master, our teacher, our rabbi, king messiah, forever”? The sign loudly proclaiming their a”z beliefs that their dead rebbe is alive and soon going to have a second coming is there for a reason which is that most, if not all, Lubavitche davening in that shul, and in Lubavitche shuls globally, believe this ideology. This is now the official Lubavitche “shittah”. If all Lubavitche worldwide believe in this ideology I dont know, certainly the majority believe in what is now the mainstream Lubavitche shitta.
The sad tuth is most are Meshichists. Some I’ve asked gave me an explanation that avoided these problems but isn’t the greatest answer either as it can apply to many Jews who died.
I know a person who comes from a Frum background that discovered their ancestors who came to America were Chabad Chasidim so they became Chabad.
They told me they purposely have never visited 770 or the Ohel to distance themselves from this “Meshichist narishkeit”
They may be a minority but there are some Chabadniks that totally reject the Rebbe is Moshiach concept (& think it’s damaging to the movement) & stick to “Old School” Chabad Chasidus.The Lubavitcher rebbe zcuto yugen aleinu and the baba sali zcuto yugen aleinu had many connections.
In Morocco the Baba Sali worked hand in hand with Rabbi Shlomo Matusof and the team of Chabad Shluhem there. Through them and on his own he frequently corresponded with the Lubavitcher Rebbe—both regarding his personal matters as well as issues pertaining to the community.
The second time that the Baba Sali and his family made aliyah to Israel he told his deliberations about whether to stay or to return to Morocco with the Lubavitcher Rebbe. He told him that from the time that he was fifteen years old he had not opened a book that was not in keeping with the path of the Holy Ba’al Shem Tov Chuto yuen aleinu and the Baba Sali viewed the Lubavitcher Rebbe as the Ba’al Shem Tovs successor in his generation and asked him for his opinion.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe wrote a long and wondrous answer to the Baba Sali, replete with great praises and deep thoughts on Kabbalah. In his letter, the Lubavitcher Rebbe called the Baba Sali “a public figure and leader in Israel” and wrote that he is like a king who should not leave his nation which is in the Land of Israel. The Rebbe defined the Baba Sali’s special power and role with the words: “Now is the time to capture, with a strong hand, the entire young generation.”
Also it is a known matter that when the Lubavitcher Rebbe started the tefillin and Shabbat candle campaigns he was happy about this and encouraged others to do the same. Also about the Rebbe’s campaign to have children purchase letters in a special Torah Scroll he was happy about and the Baba Sali wrote that he sent his personal blessing to every child who would purchasing a letter.
إذا كان أي من إخوتي المغاربة لا يستطيع قراءة اللغة الإنجليزية، فيمكنك نسخ اللغة الإنجليزية ووضعها في ترجمة جوجل@ Philosopher
“The sign loudly proclaiming their a”z beliefs”
Their beliefs are most certainly wrong but I don’t think the majority of them (the elohistim aside) are actually a”z. Consider, the policy of major hashgacha organizations is to rely on mashichist mashgichim. Even R’ Aaron Feldman, who holds not to rely on them it is because he holds that someoe who can hold such a belief is not of sufficiently sound mind to be reliable (not because it’s a”z)
“They may be a minority but there are some Chabadniks that totally reject the Rebbe is Moshiach concept (& think it’s damaging to the movement) & stick to “Old School” Chabad Chasidus.”
Not just a minority, they aren’t considered Chabad by Chabadniks. There are people like the “Liozna Rebbe” who have been mentioned here from time to time. They’re run out of their own community. Sounds like the people you know also aren’t part of the Chabad community; they just follow old Chabad minhagim.
I personally don’t care if they want to call themselves Chabadniks; I don’t have enough skin in this game to play “no-true-scottsman.” My point is, however, that you can’t really use those people as a proof towards a non-meshichist faction of the Chabad community when they aren’t actually accepted as part of the Chabad community.
Non-political, belief in their rebbe as moshiach and his second coming is in of itself not avodah zora. But just like the Early Christians first believed in Yoshke as their moshiach, then he died so they ascribed special powers to him that he really didn’t die and he’s going to come back, from that the Christians slowly turned him into a deity.
Chabad is going down the same road but in a much quicker fashion than the Christians. First they decided their rebbe is moshiach, but then when he died they came to the conclusion that he’s really alive and he’s coming back soon as the moshiach. They believe that because they are so obsessed with him and “his powers” like an avodah zora. So now their belief in their rebbe morphed into the belief that their he runs the world, that he’s everywhere, that you can pray directly to him and that he’ll help you and that he never made mistakes. They are turning him into a deity. Also, their new religion doesn’t have gehinom as part of it because at the same time they are giving their rebbe tremendous power like an a”z, they are minimizing God’s greatness that we don’t have to fear him and that He created us for His “needs”. Now Hashem has “needs” according to them.
And that’s why I call it an a”z sign, because it all started with belief that their dead rebbe is the moshiach and that he’s alive.
@ Philosopher
You mention 4 beliefs
1) he runs the world
2) that he’s everywhere
3) that you can pray directly to him
4) he never made mistakes.Points 1-3 are a”z. It seems, at this time, that the majority of Chabad doesn’t hold these beliefs. I am basing myself on the current policies of major Hashagacha organizations who rely on machischist mashgichim (including for wine) and on statements by R’ Aaron Feldman (who holds not to rely on them.
Given the number of yiden involved we can only daven that with Hashem’s help they will pull back from the abyss.
Belief 4 is not a-z. It is a misguided understanding of emunas chachamim. It is not an error unique to Chabad
Non-political, I cannot say this as an absolute fact, but I believe that the majority of Lubavitchers do believe in the a”z ideology because there are Chabad rabbis that are respected within the Chabad community saying these things and nobody is protesting their words. Furthermore, I’ve seen videos of Lubavitchers praying to the rebbes chair.
Secondly, every human being makes mistakes. Imperfection is one of the traits that defines a human being. Only Hashem is perfect, only Hashem does not ever make mistakes.
“But just like the Early Christians first believed in Yoshke as their moshiach, then he died so they ascribed special powers to him that he really didn’t die and he’s going to come back, from that the Christians slowly turned him into a deity.”
Just to play devil’s advocate, something isn’t avodah zarah just because it’s “going down the same path” as something that became avodah zarah. In fact, I might even conclude from this part of your post that you don’t even think they’re a”z… yet. But, that there’s a good chance they’re heading towards it.
If Chabad were halachically a”z, we’d all being over major issurim on a regular basis, whether you like it or not. It would be much further reaching than kashrus, so simply avoiding their hechsherim would not be enough.
@ Philisopher
“every human being makes mistakes. Imperfection is one of the traits that defines a human being. Only Hashem is perfect, only Hashem does not ever make mistakes.”
If one believed that (a) due to a persons inherent perfection he will not make a mistake then you are right. However, If based on a misguided understanding of emunas chachamim, one believed that (b) Hashem is committed to guiding leaders such that they won’t make a mistake this would not be a”z.
Most chabadniks don’t spend their free time running up and down Eastern Parkway with yellow flags. The Rebbe is Moisiach cult clearly has some traction but certainly NOT the majority view.
@non political
…. one believed that Hashem is committed to guiding leaders such that they won’t make a mistake ….
———————
This is against a famous tosefot , based on guemarot, that HKBH only safeguards tzadiqim from mistakes pertaining to food ingested into their bodies, but not on any other mistakes.
That’s how holy tana’im erred and came beshogeg to isurei de’orayta.
Infallibility belongs to God only.Non-political, you wrote ” If one believed that (a) due to a persons inherent perfection he will not make a mistake then you are right. However, If based on a misguided understanding of emunas chachamim, one believed that (b) Hashem is committed to guiding leaders such that they won’t make a mistake this would not be a”z.”
That is a fair point.
ChaBaD is good for the litvish we as their derech is boring dull and dry. We give you something to talk about : )
@ YB
“This is against a famous tosefot , based on guemarot, that HKBH only safeguards tzadiqim from mistakes pertaining to food ingested into their bodies, but not on any other mistakes.That’s how holy tana’im erred and came beshogeg to isurei de’orayta.
Infallibility belongs to God only.”I don’t follow what you are saying here. I am not defending their position as correct, I explained that it is not a”z.
“Infallibility belongs to God only”
Correct. And If he choses to prevent someone from making a mistake he can do do that, right?
@ Lostspark
1) You are speaking about a derech you clearly know nothing about
2) At least one poster on this thread is certainly ChasidishBut that’s ok. Carry on.
Non Political, I agree with you that Hashem can prevent tzadikim from making mistakes, but He doesn’t do that because He made us human and it is human to err. I dont think any of the great tzaddikim did not make any mistakes in their entire lifetime. If Moshe Rabbeinu and Avraham Avinu made mistakes, why wouldn’t the LR? He is not greater than them.
Not every chabadnik is meshichus
BUT
every meshichus is chabadnik
@non political
… ‘If He chooses to prevent someone from making a mistake He can do that’ …
=========
No one ever claimed that God cannot protect a tsadiq from sinning beshogeg.
All I said was , that THERE IS NO GUARANTEE THAT A TZADIQ cannot transgress the torah beshogeg , even if due to a mistake of theirs.
The tzadiq can sin by mistake , and we find holy Tanna’im , who did, as is clearly documented in Gmara.
Therefore, to argue otherwise is close to apikorsus, as there are clear guemarot saying the same.@ Philosopher and YB
I am not defending the proposition that it is and appropriate application of emunas hachamim to say that a particular HaCham or Tzadik never made a mistake. I was saying it’s not a”z. Something can be very wrong (even close to apikorsis per YB) and still not be a”z, no?
@ Philosopher
If Moshe Rabbeinu and Avraham Avinu made mistakes, why wouldn’t the LR? He is not greater than them.
You would have to ask someone who believes this. I don’t. I just don’t think such a belief is a’z.
If you do ask though be ready for a long trip down the rabbit hole….
“Most chabadniks don’t spend their free time running up and down Eastern Parkway with yellow flags. The Rebbe is Moisiach cult clearly has some traction but certainly NOT the majority view.”
Most Orthodox Jews don’t spend their free time running up and down the road screaming “it’s Shabbos!” when they see people driving. The fraction of Orthodox Jews who believe you can’t drive on Shabbos has some traction, but certainly NOT the majority view.
I can’t wait for this to get taken out of context…
It depends WHY this particular person believes that a tsadiq cannot make a mistake. If it is that he thinks that HKBH shields the tsadiq from a mistaken sin, then he is not an apikorus, just an am haarets . He doesn’t know the gemara.
But if he does know the gemara , and still holds by his shita that his [!] tsadiq cannot make a mistake simply because he ‘is HKBH himself’ [afra lepumayu] , and like God by definition is infallible, so too is his[!] tsadiq, infallible
That is apikorsus.
Clear and Pashut.
@ YB
But if he does know the gemara , and still that his [!] tsadiq cannot make a mistake simply because he ‘is HKBH himself’ [afra lepumayu] , and like God by definition is infallible, so too is his[!] tsadiq, infallible. That is apikorsus. Clear and Pashut.
No, that would be a”z
For it to be apikorsis he would have to
1) know that Chazal contradict his view and say that he is right anyway because he knows better then Chazal. Or
2) be mvazeh Chazal in some other manner@ non political
You are correct, I used the apikorsut and avoda zara interchangeably.
Some addition Re the similarity between habad and early xtians , which you mentioned in a previous post.
I fully agree with you re the similarity between them. But I would like to add that besides for the sakana of the slippery theological slope habad is standing on , besides the danger of who knows what’s next when another new generation of habad grows up who will [mistakenly] regard all of habads recent inventions as an undisputable part of mesorat yisrael.Besides that, there is another sakana , namely the devious use xtian missionaries can , will [and did already] make , when trying to convince unsuspecting naive Jews to experiment with ‘their version’ of disappearance/hiding/second coming/not dying etc.
A friend of mine was witness to a xtian group watching a habad rebbi video, whereafter the xtian leader of the group explained to the participants how a jewish rebbi becomes a jewish leader and how said rebbi’s followers proclaim him as Messiah , and how [in the xtians group leaders’ words] j must have started his own career …. and that by watching the habad leaders videos the xtians could get a true to life visual experience of their own j in action some 2000 years ago ….. .
“You are correct, I used the apikorsut and avoda zara interchangeably.”
There’s a huge difference. That’s the point he’s making to you and philosopher.
Ok , Both are totally wrong and definitely not part our mesorah
Looks like I came back just in time. Yipee. Experiement: Find 100 fully committed chabad chassidim. Dont’ care how frum, just make sure they’re 100% chabad either through birth or fam became BTs through chabad and they got sucked in (to the exclusion of someone who learns the rebbe’s torah/sichos, etc.) Ask said 100 people to categorically state the rebbe is not moshiach. You’ll be lucky to get 5.
I never hear the voices of the non-Meshichist Chabadnicks.
The Meshichist Chabadnicks seem to be a 1,000 times louder than the non-Meshichist Chabadnicks.
Can you name one prominent non-Meshichist Chabad Rabbi?
What is the practical difference between a Lubavitch “meshichist” and a Lubavitch non-meshichist?
As far as I can tell, and I’m certainly not an expert, it is only the degree of how loudly to proclaim that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe as being Moshiach. But both agree with the bottom line.
If my understanding is incorrect I’d love to be corrected.
Square root, exactly that is the issue. IF there are non-messichisten in Chabad, we never here of them. Even worse, there are a lot of vocal “rabbis” in Chabad spouting kefira saying that humans don’t have to fear accounting for our sins- that there’s no gehinom, that Hashem created us to “fullfill His needs”, that the LR runs the world, that you can pray directly to the LR, etc. etc.
“As far as I can tell, and I’m certainly not an expert, it is only the degree of how loudly to proclaim that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe as being Moshiach. But both agree with the bottom line.
If my understanding is incorrect I’d love to be corrected.”
See my comment above for the theological difference, but otherwise yeah I think you’re pretty much correct.
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