Non-Jewish novels

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  • #614366

    So, I have heard many different opinions about this subject, but never actually seen anything inside. Is there any issue with reading non-Jewish novels (provided they are clean, not heretical, and it is not taking up too much time) during one’s downtime?

    Also very interested to see the different hashkafic opinions

    #1045204
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You left out, “and doesnt impart any non Torahdik haskafos”.

    How would you know it doesn’t fail in any of these categories without reading it?

    #1045205
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    You can know by asking someone else who has read it.

    #1045206
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    One is not obligated to list examples in separate posts.

    #1045207
    eek
    Member

    How would you know something is nosein taam if you can’t taste it?

    #1045208
    eek
    Member

    How would you know something is rough without feeling it?

    #1045209
    eek
    Member

    How would you know what a woman is if you can’t see one?

    #1045210
    eek
    Member

    How would you know what an internet is if you can’t use one?

    #1045216

    You’ve reached your quota for irrelevant responses.

    #1045217
    eek
    Member

    I know. All my good ones got blocked.

    My point was clear though. You just get a feeling.

    #1045218
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Eek, How would you know something is nosein taam if you can’t taste it?

    Be m’sha’er based on shishim, but you’re not allowed to taste it.

    Rebyidd, correct, so to know if something is acceptable, you’re relying on someone who likely lost their sensitivity by reading unscreened material.

    #1045219
    midwesterner
    Participant

    Or Kfeila Arma’ah

    #1045220
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why only a k’feila?

    #1045221
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Books arent monolithic, what applies for one book doesnt apply for another.

    Too many books have been banned claiming it was Kefira when the banner didnt even read the book and sometimes select passages are lifted taken out of context and then the book is banned. (One can do this with almost anything and completly alter what the book really is, there are people who do this with the Torah and completly intentionally mis-interpret the torah)

    #1045222
    loudandproud
    Member

    Secretagentyid- A little piece of advice: there is no such thing as a secular novel (or movie) that is 100% clean, unless you’re reading nonfiction. I don’t know you, I don’t know your background is, but take it from someone who knows what they’re talking about: it will affect you even if you think it won’t. So, if you are serious about Avodas Hashem, and if emes really is your middle name, do yourself a favor and don’t do it.

    #1045223
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: Machlokes Rishonim

    #1045224
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Nonfiction isn’t any cleaner than fiction.

    #1045227

    I shoul explain. I have discussed this with my rebbi, an been given the ok. I need something to do in my downtime to just relax my brain. I agree, it would be nice if I was at a place where what I needed to relax would be something kodosh and it would work as well, however, I’m bein realiatic here. Also, the vast majority of jewish novels do not cut it, and thise that do, I have read or read when they come out. I was told that anything which a major plot point would be of an inclean nature is to be avoided. Anything else, if a scene pops up, to skim/skip it. Again, I’m at a place where this is the far lesser of two evils. For me, (and probably most people) boredom only leads to bad things. So no matter what anyone tells me on here, I’m not going to change. However, other people have rebuke me for my reading of secular books, and after having appraise them of my situation, they still feel it is an issue. I am simply interested in what issue it is, besides bringing goyishe ideals into ones mind

    #1045228

    DY–Im general I only read young adult fiction. Those are almost always clean. If there is a regular/adult book I want to read, I do it based on online reviews and the word of those I trust. Even then, if it is distasteful for whatever reason, it is possible to sense it as one progresses through the book.

    #1045229
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    You can read children’s books. Children’s books are generally cleaner, and there are lists of children’s books that are appropriate.

    #1045230
    tzviki16
    Member

    why do you need to take yourself out of reality by reading novels?

    #1045231
    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    “So no matter what anyone tells me on here, I’m not going to change”

    Then it’s assur for anyone to tell you why it’s assur

    #1045232
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Novels are real.

    #1045233
    barlev
    Participant

    In your downtime you should be writing here:)

    #1045234
    Baruch10901
    Participant

    If you want to avoid problematic content, the daf yomi should be avoided as well. Come on people get real!

    #1045235
    barlev
    Participant

    In your downtime you should be writing here:)

    #1045236
    eek
    Member

    “here is no such thing as a secular novel (or movie) that is 100% clean, unless you’re reading nonfiction”

    That’s just false. You can only say that because you haven’t read any.

    #1045237
    notasheep
    Member

    Tzviki- everyone has an escape mechanism from life when they feel the need to forget about stress or problems. Some people listen to music, some get chizuk from a shiur and some people like to read fiction novels. I enjoy fantasy particularly because it has no bearing on real life.

    #1045238

    Baruch—ridiculous comparison. The talmud is written in complete kedusha, with a lashon naki and goes into as little detail as possible, especially in matters that have a component of tumah. When there is uncleanliness in secular books, it is generally the complete opposite. The Netziv (or maybe the Nodah Beyehuda) was particularly livid about people not teaching certain sugyos. He says it is intrinsically kadosh, and if someone gets machshovos raos it’s an issue with him, not the gemorrah hakdosha. (Disclaimer, I have never seen this inside. I was told this by a rebbe who was then teaching my class the third perek of brochas, just before we got into the baal keri sugyos. As this was a few years ago, it is very possible I am misattributing or misquoting. If so, please correct me).

    On the other hand, secular novels are either intrinsically tamei or neutral, depending on how you look at them, and possibly on the author as well. These scenes are almost certain to cause hirhurim, independant of who you are.

    #1045239
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is a Gemorah that says that some tried to hide Shir HasHirum so it would not become part of Tanach

    #1045240

    Zahavasdad–The ones who didn’t want to include shir hashirim in tanach, held it was written woth Shlomo’s chcocma, and not ruach hakodesh. If it was written bechochma, it (a) did not deserve to be part of tanach, and (b) could be interpreted wrongly. Rabbi Akiva was machria “Shir Hashirim is Kodesh kedoshim!”

    When something is kodesh, we dont necessarily worry about how it could be interpreted “naaseh adam…”

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