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November 30, 2014 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #614366secretagentyidMember
So, I have heard many different opinions about this subject, but never actually seen anything inside. Is there any issue with reading non-Jewish novels (provided they are clean, not heretical, and it is not taking up too much time) during one’s downtime?
Also very interested to see the different hashkafic opinions
November 30, 2014 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #1045204☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantYou left out, “and doesnt impart any non Torahdik haskafos”.
How would you know it doesn’t fail in any of these categories without reading it?
November 30, 2014 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #1045205👑RebYidd23ParticipantYou can know by asking someone else who has read it.
November 30, 2014 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #1045206👑RebYidd23ParticipantOne is not obligated to list examples in separate posts.
November 30, 2014 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #1045207eekMemberHow would you know something is nosein taam if you can’t taste it?
November 30, 2014 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #1045208eekMemberHow would you know something is rough without feeling it?
November 30, 2014 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #1045209eekMemberHow would you know what a woman is if you can’t see one?
November 30, 2014 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #1045210eekMemberHow would you know what an internet is if you can’t use one?
November 30, 2014 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #1045216YW Moderator-29 👨💻ModeratorYou’ve reached your quota for irrelevant responses.
December 1, 2014 12:17 am at 12:17 am #1045217eekMemberI know. All my good ones got blocked.
My point was clear though. You just get a feeling.
December 1, 2014 12:18 am at 12:18 am #1045218☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantEek, How would you know something is nosein taam if you can’t taste it?
Be m’sha’er based on shishim, but you’re not allowed to taste it.
Rebyidd, correct, so to know if something is acceptable, you’re relying on someone who likely lost their sensitivity by reading unscreened material.
December 1, 2014 2:25 am at 2:25 am #1045219midwesternerParticipantOr Kfeila Arma’ah
December 1, 2014 2:32 am at 2:32 am #1045220☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantWhy only a k’feila?
December 1, 2014 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #1045221zahavasdadParticipantBooks arent monolithic, what applies for one book doesnt apply for another.
Too many books have been banned claiming it was Kefira when the banner didnt even read the book and sometimes select passages are lifted taken out of context and then the book is banned. (One can do this with almost anything and completly alter what the book really is, there are people who do this with the Torah and completly intentionally mis-interpret the torah)
December 1, 2014 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1045222loudandproudMemberSecretagentyid- A little piece of advice: there is no such thing as a secular novel (or movie) that is 100% clean, unless you’re reading nonfiction. I don’t know you, I don’t know your background is, but take it from someone who knows what they’re talking about: it will affect you even if you think it won’t. So, if you are serious about Avodas Hashem, and if emes really is your middle name, do yourself a favor and don’t do it.
December 1, 2014 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1045223Sam2ParticipantDY: Machlokes Rishonim
December 1, 2014 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #1045224👑RebYidd23ParticipantNonfiction isn’t any cleaner than fiction.
December 1, 2014 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1045227secretagentyidMemberI shoul explain. I have discussed this with my rebbi, an been given the ok. I need something to do in my downtime to just relax my brain. I agree, it would be nice if I was at a place where what I needed to relax would be something kodosh and it would work as well, however, I’m bein realiatic here. Also, the vast majority of jewish novels do not cut it, and thise that do, I have read or read when they come out. I was told that anything which a major plot point would be of an inclean nature is to be avoided. Anything else, if a scene pops up, to skim/skip it. Again, I’m at a place where this is the far lesser of two evils. For me, (and probably most people) boredom only leads to bad things. So no matter what anyone tells me on here, I’m not going to change. However, other people have rebuke me for my reading of secular books, and after having appraise them of my situation, they still feel it is an issue. I am simply interested in what issue it is, besides bringing goyishe ideals into ones mind
December 1, 2014 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #1045228secretagentyidMemberDY–Im general I only read young adult fiction. Those are almost always clean. If there is a regular/adult book I want to read, I do it based on online reviews and the word of those I trust. Even then, if it is distasteful for whatever reason, it is possible to sense it as one progresses through the book.
December 1, 2014 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #1045229👑RebYidd23ParticipantYou can read children’s books. Children’s books are generally cleaner, and there are lists of children’s books that are appropriate.
December 1, 2014 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #1045230tzviki16Memberwhy do you need to take yourself out of reality by reading novels?
December 1, 2014 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #1045231oyyoyyoyParticipant“So no matter what anyone tells me on here, I’m not going to change”
Then it’s assur for anyone to tell you why it’s assur
December 1, 2014 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #1045232👑RebYidd23ParticipantNovels are real.
December 3, 2014 1:39 am at 1:39 am #1045233barlevParticipantIn your downtime you should be writing here:)
December 3, 2014 3:43 am at 3:43 am #1045234Baruch10901ParticipantIf you want to avoid problematic content, the daf yomi should be avoided as well. Come on people get real!
December 3, 2014 6:21 am at 6:21 am #1045235barlevParticipantIn your downtime you should be writing here:)
December 3, 2014 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #1045236eekMember“here is no such thing as a secular novel (or movie) that is 100% clean, unless you’re reading nonfiction”
That’s just false. You can only say that because you haven’t read any.
December 3, 2014 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1045237notasheepMemberTzviki- everyone has an escape mechanism from life when they feel the need to forget about stress or problems. Some people listen to music, some get chizuk from a shiur and some people like to read fiction novels. I enjoy fantasy particularly because it has no bearing on real life.
December 3, 2014 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #1045238secretagentyidMemberBaruch—ridiculous comparison. The talmud is written in complete kedusha, with a lashon naki and goes into as little detail as possible, especially in matters that have a component of tumah. When there is uncleanliness in secular books, it is generally the complete opposite. The Netziv (or maybe the Nodah Beyehuda) was particularly livid about people not teaching certain sugyos. He says it is intrinsically kadosh, and if someone gets machshovos raos it’s an issue with him, not the gemorrah hakdosha. (Disclaimer, I have never seen this inside. I was told this by a rebbe who was then teaching my class the third perek of brochas, just before we got into the baal keri sugyos. As this was a few years ago, it is very possible I am misattributing or misquoting. If so, please correct me).
On the other hand, secular novels are either intrinsically tamei or neutral, depending on how you look at them, and possibly on the author as well. These scenes are almost certain to cause hirhurim, independant of who you are.
December 3, 2014 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #1045239zahavasdadParticipantThere is a Gemorah that says that some tried to hide Shir HasHirum so it would not become part of Tanach
December 3, 2014 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #1045240secretagentyidMemberZahavasdad–The ones who didn’t want to include shir hashirim in tanach, held it was written woth Shlomo’s chcocma, and not ruach hakodesh. If it was written bechochma, it (a) did not deserve to be part of tanach, and (b) could be interpreted wrongly. Rabbi Akiva was machria “Shir Hashirim is Kodesh kedoshim!”
When something is kodesh, we dont necessarily worry about how it could be interpreted “naaseh adam…”
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