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How would you explain (in a powerful way) and really show someone why non Jewish music is so bad?
huh? are you for real?
Ambush, is not the fact that it isn’t Jewish music that is so bad – its generally the language and connotations in the music.
Ambush, depends who you are trying to force your belief on. Did this person just start listening to this music now, or have they been doing this their whole life?
I think there are a lot more important things than listening to Jewish music, so be careful.
My point is, that sometimes you could turn somebody off from the religion by telling them that secular music is not okay to listen to.
I would not try to do such a thing. I would probably steer clear of non-Jewish music that is unappealing to me (like rap, heavy metal, etc.), and certainly those that have offensive lyrics. But what is wrong with beautiful sounding and harmonious music? Songs lift us up. The haunting melody of the Titanic theme (My Heart Will Go on) makes me very emotional. I don’t think that’s a bad thing at all. We look at secular paintings and photographs, we eat secular and non-Jewish ethnic foods, we wear clothing from a variety of sources, and read secular books. Why should enjoyment of good music be any different?
if this thread is titled, non jewish music, then why is it in the jewish music section?! just asking! 😉
good point Jax. It’s like the yetzer hara- he puts the illegal stuff in the kosher section
Even the most traditional Jewish music, trope, is based on non-Jewish greek tetrachords.
“depends who you are trying to force your belief on.”
If you use this tactic, no matter WHAT you say or do, you will never convince anyone of anything. Dont “force” your beliefs on anyone. Also, the questioner is looking for a pwerful argument to make in a discussion.
ah jphone- dee bist du? I was waiting 😉
“dee bist du?”
Im ain ani li, mi li?
good question- do you have an answer for yourself?
Do you?
cantoresq: “Even the most traditional Jewish music, trope, is based on non-Jewish greek tetrachords.”
What the heck are you talking about! you ever see a greek leining? how do you know this? where you around 2000 years ago?
thats true but somehow even jewish music that is based on non-jewish music isnt the same as ‘real’ non-jewish music
i heard a shiur on music once and-this is probably not what youre talking about- if feel inspired by it youre even allowed to put it to jewish words
88piano- simply because they are more talented! Fact!
shaatra- I’m sure your date verified it before telling you!
Most of the music put out by Jews today is not real Jewish music – they’re trying to copy the sounds of non-Jewish music, with the loud, rocky sound. If you want that type of music, non-Jewish is better. They simply have better songs.
If, however, you’re looking for real Jewish music, nothing beats some of the older Jewish stuff out there. Listen to the early D’veykus albums, Regesh, the old Chassidic stuff like Modzitz, and you’ll see that nothing compares to it. They have songs that really touch the soul.
Noitallmr: no he said he wasn’t sure if it was true
When he asks you to marry him make sure he means it though! 🙂
Feif Un,
To my brother in law, real Jewish music is not what you are talking about. It’s the music of Iraq, where his family is from. To my Bukharin Jewish friends, their music is real Jewish music etc. ” Jewish” music is a function of where your family came from.
lesschumras: my point wasn’t to say “these yes, these no”.
My point was that real Jewish music is that which touches the soul. It can be Ashkenazic, Chassidic, Sefardi, or anything else.
Modern rock music doesn’t do that.
Noitallmr: noo way ha I was forced to go on that one!!
shaatra- oh well loads of Hatzlocho on finding your Bashert asap then!!!
Amen thanx!!!
In a strange way I feel that “jewish music” or so its called that has not yiddishe hartz is more dangerous then non jewish music. Of course non jewish music is based on values the opposite to jewish values however most frum jews understand it to be wrong and therefore have a strong conscience against it. However the ones that become accepted in the jewish world are forcing these values into our ears without us thinking twice about it and we dont have to feel guilty. I know many stories of friends of mine who heard “jewish music” like this that eventually led them to non jewish music since they grew up quite sheltered and these hip songs appealed to them and they followed that path without knowing it was wrong until they came face to face with the real thing.
Orach Chayim 560:3
Sam2:What are you trying to say that music is always assur(except for a mitzvah)
Sam4: I’m not trying to say anything. The Shulchan Aruch said it for me. See the Rambam (I believe) Hilchos Ta’aniyos 2:14 (somewhere around there) for a possible Heter. The Poskim also bring down that “Lezarez Bimelachtam” is Muttar as well (which should apply to non-Jewish and Jewish music equally).
Sorry to disappoint you, Feif Un, but Modzitser and other chassidishe musical traditions and nigunim were very heavily influenced by French military music, as Napoleon’s armies came through (and retreated through) the areas they were in in 1811-1812. Did you ever wonder why chassidishe nigunnim sound so much like marches? because they are marches. The French ” La Marseillaise” the national anthem, is used as a nigun still by Lubavitchers. There’s a sefer called sefer hanigunim that has much of these tunes. Many of them will sound somewhat familiar to classical music aficionados.
Sam2 – If you’re not trying to say anything, then ???? ????? ??????.
Yitay: There are Heterim, so I don’t think anyone who relies on them can be called a Meizid. It’s still something people should know though.
Yitayningwut: you think people are sinning?
Sam2 – I don’t understand you. If you truly believe there are heteirim, then how is that citation relevant in the first place??
Sam4321- No. But I am unsure as to how to be melamed zchus. R’ Moshe couldn’t figure it out. At this point I’m even willing to concede that Klal Yisroel simply doesn’t keep that one anymore, which might possibly be a heter.
I once heard that a Ba’al Teshuva went over to tell R. Noach Weinberg z”l that he was a huge rock and roll fan before becoming frum and some habits are just too hard to break – he can’t stop listening to it. What should he do? Rav Weinberg laughed (as he was prone to do) and said he is 100% allowed to continue listening in order to “keep his sanity” and to help him grow in Yiddishkeit.
I don’t mean to say they mamash don’t keep it, rather that they keep a version of it not paskened in Shulchan Aruch.
Yitay: I obviously think that the Shulchan Aruch is right. But my D’chiya of the Heterim doesn’t obligate everybody else (even in my mind) from using them. Someone who was a Bar Hachi to be Mattir was Mattir. I can’t get rid of that, regardless of who I am. (Though I think it is an issue that some people listen to music in a manner that wouldn’t be covered by any Heterim.)
some people listen to music in a manner that wouldn’t be covered by any Heterim
What kind of music are you talking about?
Yitay: It’s not dependent on the kind of music. The only thing that should matter is why the person is listening to the music and what function the music serves. Listening to any music solely because it’s enjoyable is Assur almost L’kol Hadei;os, especially since we are very Ragil in it and the Rama’s Heter shouldn’t apply.
there are so many problems in the world today…children going off the derech..goyish music infiltrating into jewish music and home…tzaros…ect..why waste time discussing a possible issur that whether right or not that basically 99 percent of the jewish world is not and will not get on any time soon the level to keep. Lets make sure that our children grow up to be Benai Torah and Shomrei MItzvos – Hashem would rather have that from us right now then start assuring music entirely. If we can get every other aspect of our lives perfect Halivai! then maybe we can worry about that too
I’m not sure what your point is. Are you saying we should ignore Issurim because there are bigger issues in the world?
not ignore but put clearer ones that rabbanim are speaking out against in our priority…thats why the rabbanim are makbid with that but dont necessarily preach it to us..because they are on a much higher level then us. Also: each person has to decided where they are and decided what they are going to strive for.
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