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” She has a chiyuv of hocheiach tochiach es amisecha. She’s not being selfish, she is doing what the Torah requires her to do.”
That is in the case where something is a clearcut issur (such as seeing someone be mechallel Shabbos on purpose). It certainly does not apply to someone who is doing something with which she “philosophically” disagrees. Let her not do it herself, if it bothers her. But if someone wants to eat something fleishig and she is a vegetarian, she has no right to give him mussar and use “hocheiach tochiach” as a justification for doing so.
oomis1105-
With all due respect, that is a load of nonsense and closed-minded-ness. If something is wrong it is wrong, and if someone believes that the Torah demands that everyone be vegetarian than it his obligation to argue his point; otherwise he is preventing people from being the best they can be. She has the right and the chiyuv to give mussar for whatever she believes is right and proper. Just as you have the right to disagree with her and argue back.
yitayngwut,
Permit me to try again.”She has the right and the chiyuv to give mussar for whatever she believes is proper “.
She does not have that right. Just because we follow different hashkofos and psaks, why does she have the right to lecture me? Why can’t she be happy doing what her rav says is right while I follow mine? Why do I have to bothered arguing back?
lesschumras-
That’s all fine when you respond that you are following your rav. Until then everyone has the right to speak up and voice their opinion and the opinion of their rav to say that what you are doing is wrong. That is the mitzvah of tochacha. But of course you have the right to respond that you are following your own rav. And she would certainly agree that you have that right. No one is out to get you here.
“With all due respect, that is a load of nonsense and closed-minded-ness. If something is wrong it is wrong, and if someone believes that the Torah demands that everyone be vegetarian than it his obligation to argue his point;”
With equal respect, what you posted was as much nonsense as you seem to think my words were. “IF SOMEONE BELIEVES…” is the crux of the matter. Your belief, her belief, anyone else’s belief, does not give that person the right to criticize, UNLESS THEIR BELIEF IS BACKED UP BY THE ACTUAL TORAH. Her belief may be based on a misunderstanding. I have been told there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with this music being played at a wedding. I personally do not think that Eye of the Tiger is the “most” appropriate song for the chosson and kallah’s entrance, but that is my personal taste, and I certainly would not seek to tell off someone who feels differently. Please express your OPINION (and so far, ALL it is IS an opinion), but state it as such and not in a critical way.
This is what gets people’s dander up in the CR – when some folks state things as absolutes according to the Torah, and they are potentially very wrong in their assertion. My Rov did not hold as you do, even in davening, he had been known to use a bit of melodic OPERA when doing the chazoras hashatz, if appropriate to the moment. I think that if you or anyone else has a strong belief about something, by all means express it as your personal hashkafa (which is your right), but please do not give mussar to others, because you do NOT have a right to do so under any and all circumstances, despite what you believe. Even if you believe that The Torah assers meat, which clearly it does not or there would be no mitzvah of korban Pesach, you have no right to make someone feel bad because he is not a vegetarian.
oomis: If someone sees you doing something wrong, he is OBLIGATED to give you tochocho. Even if you think you are not wrong.
max well- the intricacies of how exactly to give proper tochacha are much more convaluted than being OBLIGATED to give tochacha. There are significant guidelines on how to do it properly, and unfortunately not many people can do it exactly right…
No, that is not what I said, Max. BTY WHOSE standards,exactly it is wrong? That is VERY shayach to the inyan. Just because you think someone is wrong, does not necesssarily make YOU correct in your opinion. The Torah obligates us to give mussar to someone committing an aveira (but we also have to assess the situation and determine whether or not the person is committing b’shogeig, and will then be committing b’meizid, if you sday something at that moment). But that aveira has to be a definite issur D’Oraisah, not just YOUR opinion that it is assur. Don’t give mussar to someone eating at a KOSHER restaurant that you do not frequent yourself, because you hold by a different hechsher. Too many people quite arrogantly assume that ONLY they know the halacha. There are shivim panim l’Torah and not all rabbonim are maskim with each other. There are specifics of the Torah that must never ever be abrogated (except possibly in the case of pikuach nefesh), but there are so many gray areas, and your gray areas and mine may not be the same. Before you choose to give mussar to someone a) make absolutely sure that what you are saying is a given across the board to ALL Torah-observing Jews and b)that your own hands are clean in those areas. And always speak kindly to the person to whom you are giving that tochacha, otherwise it goes in one ear and out the other.
I really must proofread before I hit Send Post.
ch123, nevertheless tochocho is an obligation to give, not an option.
emoticon613- you cna state your opinion as much as you want, but there is no need to yell
Max well,
nevertheless tochocho is an obligation to give, not an option provided the person giving the tochocho knows the difference between halacha and a chumra
“my OPINION is that these songs do not belong at any Jewish wedding, not only at mine, take it or leave it, as i said somewhere before!”
Ok, fine, don’t have it at your wedding, and do not feel it is right for someone else to have at someone else’s wedding, but for goodness sakes, please do not tell the other person that their choice to do so is a bad thing. Keep it to yourself, because your opinion (while worthy) is not halachic in nature.
At my own wedding, I did not allow ANY non-Jewish music to be played even during the dinner. All dinner music was slow Jewish music. But I did not presume to tell my friend (a VERY frum woman) who marched down at her own wedding to some symphony piece, that she offended my sensibilities by doing so at a chasunah.
The entire argument here comes down to whether or not it is always appropriate and obligatory to give mussar to someone. The answer is ONLY when the person is clearly violating an absolute halacha, not a chumrah, not a minhag of some, etc. If a frum yid is eating kosher cholov stam ice cream and you feel that it is an aveira to eat anything but cholov Yisroel, please hold your tongue. If you see him eating it right after he ate a salami sandwich, by all means remind him he is fleishig.
FWIW, there was one gedol, Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l, who matired all [male] opera (and 99% of operatic compositions were written by non-Jews). I’m pretty sure he would not have approved Wagner and Mendelssohn being used as wedding processionals, though.
yitayningwut:
Why do you think Gedolei Yisroel shlita across the spectrum — Litvish Gedolim, Chasidish Gedolim, etc. — both in Eretz Yisroel — Rav Elyashev, Rav Kanievsky, Rav Shteinman, et al — and in America — Rav Schechter, Rav Feinstein, Rav Kaminetzky, Rav Kotler, [you did mention you are a talmid in in BMG…] Rav Solomon, et al — (to name a few of the many) issued a Kol Koreh against certain so-called “frum” concerts?
Isn’t it strange that our frum Bais Yaakov schools allow the girls at their school plays to dance to non-jewish music. Most of the girls until that point don’t know of these songs. It’s then when they feel that they should look out for more of those songs.
There is so much Jewish music that they could use.
Last time i checked alot of the gerrer marches were all nepolians marches.
Also besides that alot of chasidish miggunim are from non jewish sources
the zohar says that all tunes can be uplifted for spiritual needs
its the words that can be trief
The question here is are the fast rockin songs with hebrew words really spiritualy stirring or just some heter to listen to them?
The rockin chabad niggun without words, is alot more soul searching then the words of tehillem put into a rockin song
the zohar says that all tunes can be uplifted for spiritual needs
Interesting.
I’ve noticed that when we sing zemiros on Shabbos, the kids may or may not participate depending on their mood. But when I put a Shabbos Zemer into a tune they know from elsewhere, I usually get quite a bit of participation (until the novelty wears off). Personally, I think the added benefit of their eager participation in singing Shabbos Z’miros far outweighs any concerns over using secular music (which they know anyway).
You’d be surprised how well “Yom Zeh M’chubad” fits to the tune of the Chicken Dance song.
The Wolf
when i’m with my grandmother, we use ‘jewish’ songs, and it’s so much more meaningful with my grandmother’s tunes.
That’s perfectly understandable. Your grandmother and her tunes must have a lot of emotional meaning for you.
The Wolf
We sing Ka Ribon to the A-llelujah song from Shrek. It works so beautifully, and harmonizing with it creates a truly uplifting and spiritual ambience. I first heard it done with L’ch Dodi, but it fit to Ka Ribon also.
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