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What does the oilum do about opened bottles of wine that are not mevushal, when non-jewish cleaning help is around?
If someone has non-jewish help milling around the house during the seudah, yayin nesech is the least of their concerns
if someone can afford to pay for cleaning help after paying full tuition then………..
Different side of the same coin. If there’s a goyta milling around the house, there’s a problem.
I’ve seen enough to write a novel. I’d post some examples, but it would never make it past the mods.
Goyim are fine for the workplace. But in your own house? With your own kids? Bad news.
usually we dont leave any around, If there is such a situation, my husband tapes it up w masking tape and writes all over it so that you could not open it without knowing it was opened. THen i guess you would run into a shabbos problem though.
if someone can afford to pay for cleaning help after paying full tuition then………..
Not everyone who has non-Jewish help around the house is rich. Not by any means.
The Wolf
NB: The only household help we have is our three kids who, last I checked, are Jewish.
Goyim are fine for the workplace. But in your own house? With your own kids? Bad news.
Sometimes you just don’t have a choice.
The Wolf
I don’t think the forum mentioned kids around the house with non Jewish help. Anyway, cleaning help is sometimes not a luxury but peace of mind that adds up to Shalom Bayis. Every family decides how to budget their money. Some need the latest jewelry and clothing where others will rather have a peaceful home by having household help.
One can work around to have the help when the children are not home. If one does, they can provide them with clothing fit the bill of tznius which today can be purchased and sort of looks like a uniform.
We hide the wine in closed closets to which the help does not have access.
Remember we hire them to clean, not to raise our children and babysit them. Non Jewish or not frum babysitters should be another forum.
We once had a frum tenant who babysits. One of the jobs she had was for a very balibatishe family who really support many Mosdos both here in Brooklyn and elsewhere. They always have live in domestic help. However, when the children were young, this man wanted his wife to be able to rest during the day, so they hired this tenant of ours who went over for a couple of hours(i don’t recall if it was 2 or 3 hours) to be with the children while the mother rested. No it was not no Mexican, Polish or other ethnic or very young person who cared for the children.
Become vegetarian and don’t drink non-mevushal wine!
We usually have left over beer and shnaps from Shabbos that we give to the helpers on Sundayto drink. They are always very appreciative and thankful.
Become vegetarian and don’t drink non-mevushal wine!
If it is a situation where there can be concern about ??? ?????? and mixing Milchig & Fleishig then you have to worry about Bishul Akim as well
drink water instead
who needs wine?
If my hubby gets a bottle that we don’t finish, we lock it in a dining room cabinet where our help doesn’t know about.
mewho – I think the halacha is, that kiddush is supposed to be made on wine.
And not everyone can have wine — or even grape juice.
The Wolf
Put away the wine before she comes,or tape it with writing on the tape so the slightest tampering can be discerned.If you forgot,I think you need to ask about using it.
If you have a nochria with access to your dishes then you have other problems as well. Your children are worth more than both of them. CYLOR.
If you have a nochria with access to your dishes then you have other problems as well. Your children are worth more than both of them. CYLOR.
And not everyone with a nochria in the house has children.
The Wolf
Thanks MDG.. I’m glad to see I’m not alone on this one.
Let me share with you and the oilam an unrelated, but highly illustrative, story that puts this idea in perspective:
Sure enough, I did. An odd collection, mind you, but minyan fair and square.
However, in pulling off his sweatshirt, it was plain to see that college kid was not wearing tzitzis.
While tainted wine may be a nice thing to avoid, (IMHO), having a nocri running around the house is doing way more damage to the rucnius of the Yiddishe occupants than tainted wine could ever do.
Wolf – Those who can SHOULD
I would probably agree with you. I’m just making my statement because there are, unfortunately, some people who simply cannot do without the help of a non-Jewish person in the house. They should not be condemned out of hand.
The Wolf
“They should not be condemned out of hand.”
I’m not condemning anyone.I’m just pointing out the side effects as I’ve seen them. Its like Chemo (r’l). If its needed, then so be it. But it comes with a side effect.
And Brisk –
The no touch rule should be pretty easy to enforce. But I still stand by what I said. If the nochrim are that hands-on to be a problem at the table, they most likley have their hands in other areas that they have no business being in. And I’m implying all the implications you think I mean (and Mods, please let this one thru. Its as important as warning parents / spouses about child abuse)
wolf – my last post was on the post that you said not everyone could make kiddush on wine.
My apologies.
Again, I agree with you. It’s just not always possible to make it on wine — or even grape juice. That’s perhaps why one can even make kiddush on challah.
The Wolf
I’m not condemning anyone.I’m just pointing out the side effects as I’ve seen them. Its like Chemo (r’l). If its needed, then so be it. But it comes with a side effect.
Fair enough.
The Wolf
finish the wine before the cleaning lady comes.
deizooger,good one!
BP Totty posted:
[sic]
Assuming you are referring to the University of Notre Dame, the home of the Fighting Irish sports teams, located near South Bend, Indiana, please post a link to a picture of a sweatshirt with “a cross inside the school’s logo.”
For those not familiar, the Notre Dame logo is the letter N on top of the letter D.
I hope the mods will allow the following link to a picture of a Notre Dame banner. Find the cross.
If not, please just Google “University of Notre Dame banner” and decide for yourself.
Here’s an example of a hoodie with a ND seal (which definitely has a cross):
Based on my five minute search, it seems the “Fighting Irish” stuff doesn’t have the school seal — but you can get hoodies and other clothes WITH the school seal.
The Wolf
Homeowner –
The story took place 20+ years ago, and living in BP, I have’nt seen a college sweat in almost as long.
But you missed the point, regardless. Too bad… the story had a great lesson (and thanks, wolf!)
Loved that story.BP
Reminds me of the expression of “not seeing the forest for the trees.”
Wolf, thanks for the link. I must tell you that I have been to a lot of Big Ten basketball games and I never once saw that seal. In fact, along with my friends, I followed the graduate school custom of swapping undergrad t-shirts and the Notre Dame one I got was one with the ND logo, as was every single one I ever saw.
BPT, I did indeed understand your point but there were other points to be made as well including the potential for chilul Hashem.
By the way, in today’s time, would you still solicit a minyan onboard a non-El Al flight?
“the potential for chilul Hashem.”
Sorry, Homeowner.. Try as I could, I did not see how this could have become a chilul hashem. Could you elaborate?
“would you still solicit a minyan onboard a non-El Al flight?”
I don’t fly that often, but if I heard right, no arilines allow groups to congregate on board.
But in the terminal? or in any other public place? Yeah, I’m the one who does the corraling. I don’t pressure anybody into joining, and I’m tactful about how I ask people, if their tribal membership is questionable.
And 9 out of 10 times, I daven for the amud in that siutation too.
R-B, Not sure if I heard that one, but I did hear about the young man detained last year because of his tefilin.
BPT, it strikes me that if someone who is very obviously Jewish is seen in a public place to be defacing a symbol of another religion (e.g. a cross) that this act has at least the potential for Chilul Hashem.
“defacing a symbol of another religion “
Ok, now I see your point. In this case however, the commotion was quiet, (and possibly even in Ivrit) so I don’t think anyone understood what was going on. Like I said, it was a long time ago, so I don’t have a total recall
BP-Totty; Speaking of (live-in) “Nisht Yiddishe” help. (And the dire consequences in Kashrus). I was once invited to a (semi public) Kiddush in someone’s house. The lady of the house was not present. The P. Goyte walks over to the dairy cabinet in the kitchen, taking out some plates, ready to serve Cholent. At the last moment, the son of the family walks in. He redirected the “Server” to the Meat cabinets. Saving everyone from disaster. With that ethnic group, I’m certain it was done deliberately. Because it wasn’t the first day on the job for that individual.
if you allow someone control of any part of your kitchen you should be sure they are knowledgeable about kashrus and your dishes/pots etc.
my cleaning lady is so clueless the only thing she does in the kitchen is wash the appliances, the floor and any dishes that are in their respective sinks and i have told her she can only use the sponge that is in that specific sink for the same sink dishes.
i know many people who allow their cleaning ladies to cook and it just doesnt sit right with me
My goyta can paskin shailos and, unfortunately, she is a machmir.
I, on the other hand, would not think that metrodriver’s story was a case of “Saving everyone from disaster” since chulent served on cold milchik plates is ok m’ikor hadin if they had not been used for hot milchik food in 24 hours.
mewho; The last line in your post about some people that you know who let their (live-in) non-Jewish help cook a meal is very interesting because they are (most likely) eating meals from “Bishul Aku”m”. Furthermore, I don’t think that when the live-in wants to have scrambled eggs at 3 in the afternoon (or 7:30 am) she calls the owners of the house to light the fire.
cherrybim; With all the technicalities and loopholes that you enumerate, no one would be indifferent to serving cholent in dairy dishes. Besides, there is a certain ethnic group who actually practice little acts of sabotage in Jewish homes, where they are, unfortunately trusted more than they deserve.
metro, can you explain more about the fire etc
This is my personal request in light of the Coffee Room rules that remind people that what is written here can be read by anyone.
Please do not use phrases like “my goyta” or worse. They sound way too much like “my slave.” You can make exactly the same point by saying “cleaning lady,” “cook,” “housekeeper,” “home health aide,” etc.
wine – same issue with non observant guests for your shabbos meals.
I wish my goyta was a cleaning lady.
cherrybim: I’m so sorry for your situation. May the Cholah have a Refuah Sh’laima B’karov.
Solve all issues here. Hire Jewish cleaning help.
Please do not use phrases like “my goyta” … They sound way too much like “my slave.”
A halbeh tzura, Homeowner. I’m more bothered by the term “my” as it smacks of “my neighbor, my mother, my rov, ect”
“My”???? Hashem yirachem! It should be “the”, not “my”.
I’ve seen toddlers kiss “their goyta” hello or goodbye, like its an aunt.
And to think, just 2 generations ago, they were shoving us into ovens. Or moving into our house.
No, I don’t think we need to be politicaly correct. Not me at least.
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